Tim the student
Member
I just choose to forget those personally.
C'mon, guys. (accuracy claims)
- Thread starter MachIVshooter
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I just choose to forget those personally.
OP
OP
MachIVshooter
Member
In the five years I've been a member here, I don't recall anyone being lambasted for claiming 3" 25 yard handgun groups where the shooting method and gun were conducive to that. There are a great many combat and target guns that can pull that off, and most decent pistol shooters can off a rest. Off-hand, many fewer (I can't), but still plausible.
What we're talking about here is the downright unbelievable stuff. Like no, you did not shoot a tiny ragged hole at 50 feet with a P3AT offhand. You did not pour your entire glock 17 mag into a quarter-size hole at 25 yards from a modified weaver. And on and on.
USSR
Member
My local range has put on 200 yard F Class matches for the past 3 years. The 10 ring is 1MOA (2 inches), so it should be easy, huh? Not when you're talking about 40 shots for record. We have guys with nice and expensive sticks, and lots of experience in rifle competition, and it wasn't until the 3rd year that someone shot a perfect score. The occasional tight 3 or 5 round group don't mean squat; keeping 10 rounds into a nice, tight group is bragging rights.
Don
Don
several years back i was shooting with a fellow i know. we shot targets at 100yds and 25 yards. as you might imagine, his 25yd groups were wonderful. a few days later i saw his 25 yd targets posted on hunting board we both frequent, only he said they were his 100 yard groups. since that day i have been "skeptical" of groups i see or read about on the web. i'm sure no one here stretches the truth, but you never know about folks on other boards.
essayons21
Member
While I agree that most internet claims of accuracy are greatly exaggerated, every now and then you get a good rifle. For example, I recently bought a service-grade CMP Garand that will consistently shoot 1"-1.5" groups @ 100 yards (benchrest w/ ironsights) with the handloads I use in my 30-06 bolt gun. Using Greek surplus it opens up to 2." I guess it was a slow day at the factory, and they took a little extra time putting that one together.
bad_aim_billy
Member
My XL7 will do .093" groups all day long.
Now granted, not everyone has the skill to shoot targets at 3 yards with a .30/06, I realize. But I'm just saying with some practice, it can be done.
Now granted, not everyone has the skill to shoot targets at 3 yards with a .30/06, I realize. But I'm just saying with some practice, it can be done.
I have to agree with JUNYO, I can't help it that you have been a lousy shooter with nice rigs all your life. But this is the internet and some shooters are better story tellers than fisherman are. Luckily for me I grew up with guns and spent 21 years in the army that helps me separate fiction from non-fiction. By the way I shot a prairie dog at 900 yds standing behind a dirt mount. I aimed at the rock behind the dog and bounced the bullet from the rock to the dog.
All I know is that most of my rifles are better shots than me on the trigger. I can shoot ok, but I am no Carlos Hathcock! 8*) That being said, I have/had some guns that were suprisingly decent shooters. I bought (2) Type 53 (Chinese M44 clones) for $35 each from Omega Arms a few years ago-- they were corn cob rough, and actually had straw and mud caked on them (They bought them in cordwood type bundles) that once cleaned up and headspaced, shoot pretty good, with fist size groups off a sandbag at 100yards... I also had my WASR 10 that would shoot pie plate groups (or smaller depending on ammo and off sandbags) at 100yards....I really don't have any sub MOA groups out of any of my rifles, but my MKII Savage Wally World SPecial probably can with the right ammo and tweaking-- it gets MOS (minute of squirrel) so that works for me!
I used to work with a guy who claimed to be "pretty good, out to 600 yards or so". At the time, I was struggling to improve my scores so I could make NRA Expert (never quite did).
Naturally I was impressed. So I invited him to the range for a friendly competition.
He never showed.
And declined the invitation the next 3 times I offered.
Hmmm......
Naturally I was impressed. So I invited him to the range for a friendly competition.
He never showed.
And declined the invitation the next 3 times I offered.
Hmmm......
My rifles are certainly more accurate than I am. I'd say the limiting factor is my eyesight with irons. I'll get optics eventually, and then maybe my accuracy can begin to approach the rifle's potential. I shot off sandbags one time with an AR scoped with an Elcan SpecterDR. That optic is a red dot sight that can switch between 1x and 4x. I'd love to own one myself, but last time I checked they cost about $1800. But that optic made it so easy. Put that thing on 4x and turn the red dot down to being just a little dim dot, put it on sandbags, after that it's just point and click really.
That was at 25m though, not 100 yards plus, and I was using sandbags. Even then, the rifle is capable of better. I still find myself being the limiting factor.
That was at 25m though, not 100 yards plus, and I was using sandbags. Even then, the rifle is capable of better. I still find myself being the limiting factor.
Dear Mach IV Shooter,
I understand your point of view. I have though, on occasion taken my stock Bushmaster and shot clover leafs at 100 yards. I can't do it all the time, but I've done it 4 or 5 times over the last 2 or 3 years. That's three shots not five or more. Usually when I shoot more than three shots it starts to spread. But shooting clover leafs is not impossible at 100 yards with premium ammo. I understand your disbelief at 300, 400, 500 yards with Milsurp rifles, but at 100 yards I've seen it done also more than I've done it myself. The next time I get one, if I get one I promise to post it here with the Range Master's signature and date on the target.
I understand your point of view. I have though, on occasion taken my stock Bushmaster and shot clover leafs at 100 yards. I can't do it all the time, but I've done it 4 or 5 times over the last 2 or 3 years. That's three shots not five or more. Usually when I shoot more than three shots it starts to spread. But shooting clover leafs is not impossible at 100 yards with premium ammo. I understand your disbelief at 300, 400, 500 yards with Milsurp rifles, but at 100 yards I've seen it done also more than I've done it myself. The next time I get one, if I get one I promise to post it here with the Range Master's signature and date on the target.
franconialocal
Member
Well, when I'm at the range in September qualifying for the PD with my Sig P-220...drawing smiley faced head shots and the range officer tells me to stop goofing off...I'm a pretty happy camper *lol* (But Sarge!...they are still qualifying shots!!). I shoot a TON in my free time..
As long as I'm still getting 37/37, 47/47 qualifying rounds on the paper I'm satisfied...no measurments needed.
I was the second best shot at my academy...first being a guy that was previously with Border Patrol in Texas (I guess they shoot ALL the time). I never really concerned myself with hard numbers....
The only reason I don't do IDPA, three gun, regionals, or any other competition is that there is NOTHING going on way up here in the woods of northern NH (NRA, GONH, etc.)
and the range officer tells me to stop goofing off...I'm a pretty happy camper *lol* (But Sarge!...they are still qualifying shots!!). I shoot a TON in my free time..As long as I'm still getting 37/37, 47/47 qualifying rounds on the paper I'm satisfied...no measurments needed.
I was the second best shot at my academy...first being a guy that was previously with Border Patrol in Texas (I guess they shoot ALL the time). I never really concerned myself with hard numbers....
The only reason I don't do IDPA, three gun, regionals, or any other competition is that there is NOTHING going on way up here in the woods of northern NH (NRA, GONH, etc.)
Well I put alot of effort and money into my rifles to make them as accurate as I can afford to. I experiment with handloads looking to get the most out of my firearms. I don't brag about my results because I shoot for my personal enjoyment, not to impress my online peers. I will say this, there are some cartridges, such as .222rem that 1moa from just about any rifle should be expected, not considered impressive.
Action_Can_Do
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- 574
MachIVshooter
I've seen multiple posts where the posting of supposed 2 inch groups with a full size Smith and Wesson were declared impossible with dozens of members agreeing. I've also seen posts on this forum where it was stated that a 30-06 was incapable of penetrating a phone book, that a 25acp is a stellar man stopper with proper shot placement, and that a 40S&W has twice the recoil of a 45acp. I've learned to be skeptical of what I read.
I've seen multiple posts where the posting of supposed 2 inch groups with a full size Smith and Wesson were declared impossible with dozens of members agreeing. I've also seen posts on this forum where it was stated that a 30-06 was incapable of penetrating a phone book, that a 25acp is a stellar man stopper with proper shot placement, and that a 40S&W has twice the recoil of a 45acp. I've learned to be skeptical of what I read.
When I was younger...22+ years ago I had one rifle; Anschutz .177 Olympic Match Air Rifle that I could consistently put one pellet after another into the same hole at 10 meters (33 Feet) from a un-supported loop slinged prone position. This was achieved after years of shooting every day. If you have ever handled a real Olympic quality target match rifle, they are a thing of beauty.
I (Dad) only paid $750 for it after we used them in a national Explorer Scout championship match held at the USAF Academy back in the late 80's. I had won the Southern California qualifying Match, enabling me to attend the National match. Now, I was used to shooting against other kids who were good, but not dedicated. When I went up against those other regional/state winners at the Academy, I realized i was not all that good compared to the truly dedicated shooters out there. Even though I came in 25th out of the Nation, I felt like I did crappy. And after the match they offered the rifles we used (Everybody used same rifle/ammo to make things even across the board) for half price which was a screaming deal on a Olympic match air rifle.
I also shot 50' Smallbore competitions while working as a Rifle/Shotgun Merit Badge instructor/counselor at Boy Scout camps for three years in Southern California. Won nationally two years in a row with scores of a perfect 200 and then a 199 the second year, and then came in third my last year with a 198. That was the last time I shot competitively...joined the Military in 1988 and lost interest (didn't have time) in competitive shooting sports, but not shooting in general. I always qualified expert when qualifying for my duty weapons, but that's not hard to do.
Now to present day; I don't brag about how small of groups I can shoot...I shoot for fun, relaxation, and hunting. Sure, I can get some really small groups with a good rifle and good ammo, but I'm not one to brag about it. Well, let me take that back...funny story (at least to me): I was stationed at Fort Dix as an USAF Ground Combat Instructor, co-worker had a Springfield M1A and we went to the range one day to do some shooting. He had some see-through scope mounts on it but no scope mounted yet. We were shooting at 100 yards at a paper plate. he was hitting it but had about 6" groups using the open sights. He let me try it out and once I got used to that sweat two stage trigger, I had a dime sized 5 shot group using the open sights. He jokingly said I can never shoot his guns anymore LOL. Great guy and definitely would be called a firearms enthusiast, he has some fine firearms.
I (Dad) only paid $750 for it after we used them in a national Explorer Scout championship match held at the USAF Academy back in the late 80's. I had won the Southern California qualifying Match, enabling me to attend the National match. Now, I was used to shooting against other kids who were good, but not dedicated. When I went up against those other regional/state winners at the Academy, I realized i was not all that good compared to the truly dedicated shooters out there. Even though I came in 25th out of the Nation, I felt like I did crappy. And after the match they offered the rifles we used (Everybody used same rifle/ammo to make things even across the board) for half price which was a screaming deal on a Olympic match air rifle.
I also shot 50' Smallbore competitions while working as a Rifle/Shotgun Merit Badge instructor/counselor at Boy Scout camps for three years in Southern California. Won nationally two years in a row with scores of a perfect 200 and then a 199 the second year, and then came in third my last year with a 198. That was the last time I shot competitively...joined the Military in 1988 and lost interest (didn't have time) in competitive shooting sports, but not shooting in general. I always qualified expert when qualifying for my duty weapons, but that's not hard to do.
Now to present day; I don't brag about how small of groups I can shoot...I shoot for fun, relaxation, and hunting. Sure, I can get some really small groups with a good rifle and good ammo, but I'm not one to brag about it. Well, let me take that back...funny story (at least to me): I was stationed at Fort Dix as an USAF Ground Combat Instructor, co-worker had a Springfield M1A and we went to the range one day to do some shooting. He had some see-through scope mounts on it but no scope mounted yet. We were shooting at 100 yards at a paper plate. he was hitting it but had about 6" groups using the open sights. He let me try it out and once I got used to that sweat two stage trigger, I had a dime sized 5 shot group using the open sights. He jokingly said I can never shoot his guns anymore LOL. Great guy and definitely would be called a firearms enthusiast, he has some fine firearms.
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I know this, when I comment on having shot clover leafs at 100 yards with my AR, I'm not bragging about my abilities, because I can't shoot like that with any of my other rifles; I only mention it, because I'm impressed with the gun. I know that every gun needs a shooter and I don't brag about my shooting...I too mostly do it for the relaxation and enjoyment that I get out of it. I have two rifles that consistently shoot MOA at 100 yards. Those same guns tend to spread out at 200 yards to 1.5 MOA...is it the gun? No I think it's me the shooter. I don't claim to be a sharp shooter or expert marksman, but I have shot clover leafs at 100 yards more than once; when it's repeatable I think that diminishes the idea of just luck as well.
club match accuracy
There's shooting tiny groups off bags from concrete topped benches...and then there's shooting for points from a variety of positions.
My R&G club holds a small formal match on a weekly basis:
6 rounds at 100yds, with scoped bolt action hunting rifles,any caliber or scope.
The 10pt ring is 2", 9pt ring 4", 8pt ring 6" in diameter, down to a 12" dia 5pt ring. To mix it up, we sometimes shoot the same format at 200yds, with bigger targets.
Not much challenge there some would say.
OK - here is the match format, in the order in which it is shot:
1st shot - off your own set of sandbags, from the bench.
2nd & 3rd shots - 20 second time limit, with gun unloaded and ammo on the bench. Shooter standing 3' behind bench, rifle is set in your sandbags and pointed at target. Soon as shooter steps onto the bench pad, the stopwatch starts. You can only load/fire one round at a time. This shot mimicks the pressure of taking a fast shot while hunting.
4th - shot unsupported while seated on ground, using elbows or arms on knees, sling allowed. I use the Seated Marine variation for this shot.
5th - shot laying prone on canvas tarp, sling allowed.
6th - shot offhand standing, sling allowed.
It is generally considered that a 54 pt score is halfway decent, and certainly not a gimme. At 55-56 you are doing really well. 57 you are pleased with yourself. 58 having a real good day. 59 you're kicking yourself for missing a perfect 60pt score.
Thing is that of the 18 matches shot last year, by 10 to 15 guys each week, there were only three 59s and nil 60s. A 60 score is something that a guy can aspire to - and the others pray for when a buddy has 50pts up and is lining up his offhand shot - but sometimes two years go by before someone hits that jackpot.
Benefit to all of us is that over the years, the group as a whole becomes much better at position shooting, which helps when hunting big game. We keep track of the scores, and give awards for 1st, 2nd and 3rd best overall.
Do any of you guys do fun informal shoots with your R&G club or your range buddies? What format?
There's shooting tiny groups off bags from concrete topped benches...and then there's shooting for points from a variety of positions.
My R&G club holds a small formal match on a weekly basis:
6 rounds at 100yds, with scoped bolt action hunting rifles,any caliber or scope.
The 10pt ring is 2", 9pt ring 4", 8pt ring 6" in diameter, down to a 12" dia 5pt ring. To mix it up, we sometimes shoot the same format at 200yds, with bigger targets.
Not much challenge there some would say.
OK - here is the match format, in the order in which it is shot:
1st shot - off your own set of sandbags, from the bench.
2nd & 3rd shots - 20 second time limit, with gun unloaded and ammo on the bench. Shooter standing 3' behind bench, rifle is set in your sandbags and pointed at target. Soon as shooter steps onto the bench pad, the stopwatch starts. You can only load/fire one round at a time. This shot mimicks the pressure of taking a fast shot while hunting.
4th - shot unsupported while seated on ground, using elbows or arms on knees, sling allowed. I use the Seated Marine variation for this shot.
5th - shot laying prone on canvas tarp, sling allowed.
6th - shot offhand standing, sling allowed.
It is generally considered that a 54 pt score is halfway decent, and certainly not a gimme. At 55-56 you are doing really well. 57 you are pleased with yourself. 58 having a real good day. 59 you're kicking yourself for missing a perfect 60pt score.
Thing is that of the 18 matches shot last year, by 10 to 15 guys each week, there were only three 59s and nil 60s. A 60 score is something that a guy can aspire to - and the others pray for when a buddy has 50pts up and is lining up his offhand shot - but sometimes two years go by before someone hits that jackpot.
Benefit to all of us is that over the years, the group as a whole becomes much better at position shooting, which helps when hunting big game. We keep track of the scores, and give awards for 1st, 2nd and 3rd best overall.
Do any of you guys do fun informal shoots with your R&G club or your range buddies? What format?
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Unless your talking snipers, accurate military rifles is really a moot argument. Like the guy who talked about hitting the 5 gallon bucket at 100yds as if that was terrible. I think hitting a bucket a 100 yards is pleanty good. In combat is almost impossible to hit what you are shooting at between the adrenaline and the chaos involved. In the heat of battle luck is as important as an accurate rifle.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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I want to thank the OP for injecting some reality into this fantasy.
Float Pilot
Member
Shooting open sight military rifles like the excellent Swedish Mausers, is not only a matter or having a good rifle with a good shooter. Proper hand-loading gained by 40 years of hand-loading experiments often help.
And knowing things like a change in primers (see pic) or even temp can dramatically change your group size.
It also helps to never drink sodas or coffee and then drink a bunch of sleepy-time herbal tea before a match. Maybe after a breakfast of left-over turkey.
And knowing things like a change in primers (see pic) or even temp can dramatically change your group size.
It also helps to never drink sodas or coffee and then drink a bunch of sleepy-time herbal tea before a match. Maybe after a breakfast of left-over turkey.
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I remember when I bought my first bolt rifle and posted a range report on it with pictures of targets showing 1.5 to 2 moa accuracy all I got in return was a bunch of bashing on my cheap scope from the "fishermen" shooters on this fine forum.
R.W.Dale
Member
Just look at the low participation in my matches.
I'm convinced shooters are shooting targets by the promises I always get at the matches inception. I'm equally convinced those targets are not submitted because they don't live up to the participants previous claims and or expectations
I'm convinced shooters are shooting targets by the promises I always get at the matches inception. I'm equally convinced those targets are not submitted because they don't live up to the participants previous claims and or expectations
Krochus,
"Just look at the low participation in my matches." Yeah a big 10-4 on that. I'm surprised at the number of shooters that could easily win if they shot as well they claimed. I do however know some guys that shoot well but don't shoot matches. I think many shooter are just timid to shoot matches.
I have also seen good shooters have a bad day. One of my shooting buddies had really bad rifle match score of 175ish out of 500 points. I got the feeling guys were thinking he couldn't shoot. He had an upper never did shoot right. Today the same guys got to see him redeem himself at 600yds in bad conditions. The target puller for 1 stage brought him the marker he hit 4 times in a row in heavy winds. That is a prize in itself. It would not be bad in good conditions. Less than 1/2 MOA at 600. He shot well enough that nobody believed he had a stock barreled Rem 700. 3 guys looked at it to see for themselves.
Of course the OP would not be able to handle the "gear queers" we ran into about 3 weeks ago. They had all the equipt & even training, just no "skilz".
I treat it as just entertainment at some point. That is my coping mechanism.
"Just look at the low participation in my matches." Yeah a big 10-4 on that. I'm surprised at the number of shooters that could easily win if they shot as well they claimed. I do however know some guys that shoot well but don't shoot matches. I think many shooter are just timid to shoot matches.
I have also seen good shooters have a bad day. One of my shooting buddies had really bad rifle match score of 175ish out of 500 points. I got the feeling guys were thinking he couldn't shoot. He had an upper never did shoot right. Today the same guys got to see him redeem himself at 600yds in bad conditions. The target puller for 1 stage brought him the marker he hit 4 times in a row in heavy winds. That is a prize in itself. It would not be bad in good conditions. Less than 1/2 MOA at 600. He shot well enough that nobody believed he had a stock barreled Rem 700. 3 guys looked at it to see for themselves.
Of course the OP would not be able to handle the "gear queers" we ran into about 3 weeks ago. They had all the equipt & even training, just no "skilz".
I treat it as just entertainment at some point. That is my coping mechanism.
gunsandreligion
Member
HUH?
With a handgun maybe.
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