C'mon, guys. (accuracy claims)

[MCMXI]

Grouping is paramount to [strike]accuracy[/strike] precision

A 200-20X score at 600 yards on an F-Class target indicates both ACCURACY and PRECISION since the 20-shot group could be no larger than 0.5 MOA. A 0.25 MOA group in the 8-ring on the same target scoring 160-0X indicates inferior ACCURACY but superior PRECISION. I'd much rather have the first score. You may be surprised at how difficult it is to put the shots in the 10-ring let alone the X-ring on an F-Class 600 yard target. Whereas sub MOA groups are fairly common at 600 yards, 200-0X and particularly 200-20X are not.

 

[dubbleA]

i find it entertaining when people post a picture of their "awesome group"...but in the picture, the group is like 4 or 5 inches from the bullseye...where im from, they say your consistent, but you consistently miss lol

This might make you feel better

 

[KevininPa]

Up The Irons

"Damn... I just got beat... "


Don't feel bad. I'll be working on that narrow side for awhile.

 

[d2wing]

The BS just gets deeper.

 

[KevininPa]

"The BS just gets deeper. "


Just think if this was a fishing forum.

 

[Walkalong]

When I read some of these claims that the OP is talking about, I sometimes just want to bang my head on the wall, because I know what it takes in the real world of serious competition.

Shooting bug hole groups is difficult. Trying to do it over and over will make you beat your head against the wall.

Shooting the X at any distance is difficult to do as well. Trying to do it over and over will make you beat your head against the wall as well.

Some folks who shoot the former, don't give the latter credit, and vice versa. That's a shame.

One 1/4" group does not make a 1/4" rifle, period. Heck, neither do two 1/4" groups.

There are people on this forum with great rifles who can shoot the eyes out of a flea, and then there are the ones who BS, but mostly it's just folks with good rifles shooting good groups, and hitting pretty much where they want to hit, and are dang proud of it, as well they should be.

I thought I had a couple of accurate rifles and knew how to shoot, until I got in the accuracy game. Talk about an eye opener. Geez.

If you have not shot in serious competition, you just don't know. No excuses, no mulligans, just point blank reality staring you in the face.

 

[Isher]

Personally, I have found

That my percentage of sub-MOA groups

At 300 yards or better greatly increased

If I was drunk and wearing chest waders.............


isher

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

dubbleA, have to ask - which rifle rig?

 

[dubbleA]

dubbleA, have to ask - which rifle rig?

It's been posted before...... Cooper M22 in 6.5x284 /Leupold 8.5x25 / 142 SMK/R22
It shot really well that day, like shooting a Boone & Crocket buck the first time out, it'll be hard to top.

 

[Walkalong]

That's a beauty.

 

[TexasVine]

My R15 shoots .5 inch groups at 100 yards all day long with Black Hills 68 Grain Match HP in 223 and SSA 110 Grain Pro Hunter in 6.8SPC (CMMG upper).

 

[RonE]

I have to agree with some and disagree with others. "Accuracy" is usually confused with "consistancy" and "repeatability". When you consider all three factors, you might well consider not only the rifle but also the ammunition, the shooter and the conditions. Everything has to come together. Most who speak with authority about accuracy speak of five round groups, not three, and certainly not four and a "flyer".

If you are interested here is a story about "accuracy"

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.co...-houston-warehouse-read-this-classic-article/

If my deer rifle will shoot a 1" five shot group at 100 yards, I know that it is as accurate as any thing that I will ever own. If my single shot varmit rifle will consistantly shoot 1/2 - 3/4" five shot groups at 100 yards, I will probably retire it and just carry the target around with me to brag about

 

[Tim the student]

It should be noted that accuracy and precision are not the same animal. Many people misuse "accuracy" - myself included.

ETA: Ooops, I missed 1858's post.

 

[rozziboy18]

i agree totaly, i bought a dpms 308lr 3 months ago and the best group BEST group was 1.0 at 100 yards with some fed gm 175 i have had the odd group where i screwed up and did some thing right 5 times in a row and got a sub group arounf .75 or so out of a vice!!!!!! vice people, and catch hell from som 18 yo because he can get a -1000 moa group at a mile with a 17 hmr or what ever the hell he said. i for one would love to see more honesty on here, no saying every one here is a liar , because i myself, all 24 years of me,would like to become a better shooter, and i cant do it based on lies and boogus claimes

 

[CZguy]

Simple solution.

The solution for me has been relatively simple. When I read some of the posts here (and elsewhere on the net) dealing with accuracy, I have a built in filter. This filter shall remain nameless (but some of you may recognize it, and even use it.) I have a lifetime of shooting behind me and at this point I pretty well know my own capabilities, and those of others. So feel free to post anything you want as to the accuracy of old thumper..............I'll just automaticly adjust to what I think is about right.

 

[scchokedaddy]

shootin fer meat

I ain't never bin ajle to git a dahr to stand still fer me to try to shoot 3 much less 5 shots at 'em. What r I doin wrong? I shoot em and they fall down or haul a--!!! mebbe ya'll got difrent critters then we gots round here. never had nuff boolits to jest shoot up the place, sure wouldnt want my buddies to find out i shot up my food that much, them fellerd might take my gun away. well i sure might sneek off in swamp and try to shoot like youns do but my wife sure will be mad if she ketches me ashootin and not killing eny thin. But , I have really enjoyed this post. We all know that most if not all weapons are capable of shooting far better than we are capable of shooting them. And you gotta admit there are some who are "naturals" at it , the rest of us, well you know.

 

[MachIVshooter]

A 200-20X score at 600 yards on an F-Class target indicates both ACCURACY and PRECISION since the 20-shot group could be no larger than 0.5 MOA. A 0.25 MOA group in the 8-ring on the same target scoring 160-0X indicates inferior ACCURACY but superior PRECISION. I'd much rather have the first score. You may be surprised at how difficult it is to put the shots in the 10-ring let alone the X-ring on an F-Class 600 yard target. Whereas sub MOA groups are fairly common at 600 yards, 200-0X and particularly 200-20X are not.

OK, I've applied the term accuracy too loosly.

I will say, then, to me, precision is still paramount, because hold-over is a pretty easy adjustment with a (relatively) known target size.

When I'm rat shooting, If I take a shot at one that was further than I thought (happens all the time, it's hard to get a bead on those guys with a range finder in the open praire), I simply adjust. I've found that quite often, when they're 400, 500 or more yards out, a nearby bullet impact doesn't necessarily send them running. So I figure how far high/low/left/right I am, based on the average P-dog being about 3" wide and 10-12" tall, and hold my crosshairs where they need to be for the next bullet to find it's mark. I've taken as many as 6 shots on one rat to score a kill at extended range (that was my longest ever, at 782 yards measured). "walking the bullets in" has served me pretty well in the varmint hunting department.

So, for me, knowing that the rifle is capable of good precision/repeatability, means that accuracy just becomes a function of calculating the bullet's trajectory.

My .25-06 is sighted for 200 yards, and stuffed in the butt cuff is a laminated card with a trajectory table for my pet load in 50 yard incriments to 600 yards, including 10 and 20 MPH crosswind tables. Since a big buck is a bit harder to find (and a lot easier to tag with a range finder) than the next P-dog, I don't wanna miss.

ETA:

Since I mention these rifles quite a bit, thought I'd share my pet loads

.17 Rem.: 20 gr. moly V-max, 23.0 grs. H322, 4,245 FPS
Rifle: Remington 700 LVSF (22" barrel)
Optic: Weaver V-16 4-16x 42mm UFCH
Trigger: Factory, adjusted 1 pound 10 ounces

.220 Swift : 55 gr. moly V-max, 44.2 grs. H414, 3,920 FPS
Rifle: Ruger M77 Mk II Varmint (26" Barrel)
Optic: Nikon Monarch 6.5-20x 44mm UFCH
Trigger: Factory, 3 pounds 2 ounces

.25-06 Rem.: 117 gr. Gameking BTSP, 54.0 grs. IMR 4831, 3,195 FPS
Rifle: Remington 700 BDL (24" Barrel)
Optic: Leupold VX-III 4.5-14x 40mm standard Duplex
Trigger: Factory, slightly adjusted, 4 pounds 1 ounce

When I use my .25-06 for rats, it's a 75 gr. HP over 60.5 grs. IMR 4831 for a MV of 3,690 FPS. But that's alot of recoil to tolerate for vermin.

 

[Slamfire]

Yesterday in the mail, I received my Jan 2010 Rifle Magazine.

In it is an article titled "Thoughts on Marksmanship" by Mike Venturino.

Mike creates a distinction between "group shooting" and “marksmanship”.

His point, and one I agree with, is that we have fooled ourselves that we are great shots because we can shoot tiny groups using a sandbagged rest.

He has found, as I, once you get off the bench, it takes one heck of a lot of practice to consistently hit a washtub at 100 yards. It takes even more to hit a pie plate. And even then, you can expect misses.

If you are really so good, come to a Highpower match and shoot standing, sitting, prone RF and prone SF.

If you break 400 out of 500 points, that's OK for first time shooter. The guys who shoot in the 490's are real marksmen.

 

[oldpuppymax]

Last year I took aim from the 2nd story of a rented house in Atlantic City and hit a pigeon on the Champs Elysees in Paris. Didn't post about as I hit him in the left eye when I was aiming at the right. But I DID have to cut down the load in my black powder Great Plains. At full power the day before, a German family complained about the ball whizzing past their house.

 

[Walkalong]

it takes one heck of a lot of practice to consistently hit a washtub at 100 yards.

The day I can't hit a washtub offhand at 100 yards with a rifle, please put me in a home. I am going to be pissed if I miss the pie plate. Thanks, AC


But you are right, shooting offhand, from whatever position, is a great deal more difficult, and is true Markmanship in its purest sense.

The true Marksman, to me, is the person who can be dropped into a reasonable situation, judge the distance, and hit the target/game with the first shot, almost all of the time.

Target shooting of whatever kind, while difficult to do at a high level, and truly a skill of its own, is much different.

 

[MachIVshooter]

He has found, as I, once you get off the bench, it takes one heck of a lot of practice to consistently hit a washtub at 100 yards. It takes even more to hit a pie plate. And even then, you can expect misses.

While his washtub and pie plate examples I suspect are an embellishment, there is tremendous truth to his statements of the difference between sand bagged rest and real world shooting.

My personal experience has been that shooting prone with a bi-pod and using my hand to support the buttstock, groups don't increase tremendously from what they are on bags.

Prone w/o bi-pod, or sitting cross-legged with elbow on the knee as a support tends to double (or slightly more) the group sizes.

Standing and unsupported, I consider myself a 100-150 yard game getter. Standing groups at 100 yards for me are in typically in the 5-6 inch range with a scoped rifle, a littlle bigger with open sights. I don't do alot of practicing from that position, though, as a standing shot being necessary probably means that the animal is very close. The last deer I shot standing was a mere 40 yards out. Most any other time, I've been able to find a suitable rest or unfold the harris bi-pod and sit down. There was a time when I was kinda into competetive rimfire (never truly serious), and using the nice little anschutz rifle, shooting jacket and sling, I could pull off 3/4" 50 foot groups reliably, often smaller.

 

[USSR]

Reading this, I have to laugh. Last hunting season I took a sucessful (but totally unnecessary) offhand head shot on a deer at about 30 yards. Felt real good about it at the time (I hate to waste meat), but right now I'm thinking "What the heck was I thinking"?

Don

 

[Wheeler44]

How easy it is to look at life through ones own eyes only.........

In 1919 My Great Grandfather fired a 98 -8x with an '03 ........He came in 48thplace in that match. It was the Presidents match fired at 1000 yds...the x is 10" (1MOA) and the 10 ring 20" (2MOA) with iron sights...

Letters sent home from the match state that conditions were less than ideal for "good" shooting....

I'm sure the rifles were nicer than rack grade but they were supposed to be rack grade...The ammo was issued match....


Do the math...90 years ago...if you pulled 2 rds. outside of 1 MOA at 1000 yds. with surplus rifles and ammo you were an also ran.....but would qualify as one of the Presidents 100....

 

[Offfhand]

Post from Wheeler44, above.

"In 1919 My Great Grandfather fired a 98 -8x with an '03 ........He came in 48thplace in that match. It was the Presidents match fired at 1000 yds...the x is 10" (1MOA) and the 10 ring 20" (2MOA) with iron sights..."

Wheeler, sounds like he did some great shooting. But I'm curious about what target they were shooting at. The old high powder targets did not an "X" the center ring being a "V"

 

[MCMXI]

If you are really so good, come to a Highpower match and shoot standing, sitting, prone RF and prone SF. If you break 400 out of 500 points, that's OK for first time shooter. The guys who shoot in the 490's are real marksmen.

You're kidding right?! At least give the novice shooter some hope!! If you manage to break 300 (200, 300 and 600 yard course of fire) under the stress of a match, in the sun and wind and all trussed up like a nutter from a looney bin you should be proud of yourself!! I know quite a few folks who've been at this game for a while and are thrilled when they break 400. I also know quite a few folks that have a bad day when they don't break 480.

The true Marksman, to me, is the person who can be dropped into a reasonable situation, judge the distance, and hit the target/game with the first shot, almost all of the time.

I didn't feel too good about my shooting ability on 12/09/09. I hope this story provides some amusement and a touch of reality to this thread. A couple of friends are responsible for the firearms training of hundreds if not thousands of Marines. They invited me to shoot with them at 800 yards (or thereabouts) in December last year. The targets were a pair of LaRue reactive "sniper" targets shown below. The target is 12" wide at the widest point, and 18" tall.

For the last few months I've been working up loads for my .308 Win and was using a Shooting Chrony Beta Master. Based on some ERR messages and reviews on the CED M2, I upgraded my chronograph to the CED. While getting much more consistent results, I also noticed that the CED M2 reported the velocities of my loads to be anywhere from 75 to 100 fps SLOWER than the SCBM. I'd been shooting at 200, 300, 400 and 600 yards using an average velocity of 2,755 fps for a 178gr A-MAX. Results on target seemed to be close enough to make me feel that I had good DOPE out to 600 yards at least. However, based on the "superiority" of the CED M2, I generated comeups out to 1000 yards with the new average velocity of 2,665 fps. So I headed off to the base with 100 rounds excited at the thought of making hit after hit on the targets.

The two friends in question are ridiculously talented rifle and pistol shooters. They are both very successful on an international level so I had a little performance anxiety when I got down behind my rifle. I asked them what they thought the wind was doing since it felt like it was blowing with a zero value (headwind) at around 7 mph (measured with Kestrel NV4500). With no wind flags, trees or other vegetation it was down to a best guess. My scope (Premier Reticles 3-15x50mm) was zeroed for 200 yards and I'd ranged the targets at just over 800 yards. According to my DOPE, I had to come up 6.5 mils (based on new average velocity). With a zero value wind I left the windage alone at 0.0 mils. So here's how my day started.

1st shot: El: +6.5 mils, Wd: 0.0 mils = MISS but no one saw any splash

2nd shot: Didn't change a thing (why would I) = MISS and again no one saw any splash

3rd shot: OK ... now I'm a little flustered ... so I told myself that maybe the CED M2 velocity was off so I should go back to my SCBM DOPE and 2,755 fps. Comeup for 800 yards is +6.0 mils so El: +6.0 mils, Wd: +0.1 mils (just in case) = MISS and again no one saw any splash :banghead:

So three shots and three misses with no splash to help.

4th shot: OK ... lets split the difference and go with +6.3 mils on the elevation and maybe the wind is blowing right to left a little. El: +6.3 mils, Wd: +0.3 mils = MISS and finally splash was visible to the right of the target but good elevation.

5th shot: El: +6.3 mils, Wd: +0.7 mils = MISS ... ***!! Just to the right of the target.

6th shot: El: +6.3 mils, Wd: +1.0 mils = HIT dead center!! In other words, the "zero" value wind was blowing the bullet to the left by 28.8"!! A drop/change in wind even if for an instant could easily result in a miss.

7th, 8th, 9th and 10th shots = HIT!!

45 minute break due to unsafe downrange condition ...

11th shot: Same settings since the wind hadn't changed (or so I thought) = MISS with no splash!! :banghead:

End result: Not feeling too good about my long-range ability but what did I learn that day?

Without "splash" or other signs of impact, you're merely guessing. Without wind flags or trees to show wind direction you're merely guessing and reading the wind is VERY difficult. What's happening where you are may have little or no bearing on what's happening between you and the target. Long-range shooting, even at a target 1.5 MOA wide is TOUGH. Come prepared with a KNOWN and VALIDATED bullet velocity. My life didn't depend on my ability to hit the target first time that day so LEARN from the experience but ENJOY it for what it was.