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Charges would be likely. Where and when did this happen?
I remember a heated discussion on the legality of "anchoring shots" in a class on the Law of Land Warfare in Infantry ANCOC back in 1986. It was eventually decided that "anchoring shots" were permitted until you reached the limit of advance, and not permitted once you started the consolidation and reorganize phase of the operation. The rational was that you didn't want an enemy casualty to shoot you in the back after you passed him. My point is; This is a gray area in combat. I can think of no situation where it would be permissible in a civilian self defense encounter.
Looked like the fight was still going on when he shot the guy on the right a second time. This is a good example of how video can be edited to show a completely different version of what happened. Another reason why we need to be careful when drawing conclusions from snippets of video.
Tells me to sign in and create an account. I do not do that.
jmorris
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I think the guy had about 8 in him before he dropped his gun in the street and collapsed on the sidewalk. The good guy was closer to the firearm than the bad guy, when he got his second helping of ammunition.
old lady new shooter
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Sometimes BG doesn't move for several seconds or even more than several, then suddenly gets up again.
Check out this 2015 video from Israel, terrorist drives onto sidewalk to run over victim, then starts stabbing (or hacking) him and then another person. Armed citizen runs into the picture and shoots terrorist at close range. Terrorist goes down but gets up after a few seconds. Armed citizen shoots terrorist again. After a longer interval, terrorist AGAIN gets up and starts running away despite having been shot twice at close range and going down both times, armed citizen shoots him a third time, he continues moving, other citizens intervene to keep him from escaping, one by kicking him, hard to see details on the video, can't see how far terrorist gets or whether he again gets shot.
How fast can you process information under stress? There didn't seem to be a pause in the action, the shooter turned back towards the guy on the ground who was still moving and shot him again. How many seconds did the entire engagement take? You fight the way you train. When I started in LE we were taught to fire two and assess. That's not taught anymore. Current doctrine is to fire until the threat has ended. We can sit here in the safety of our homes and argue over split seconds and when the citizen should have recognized the fight was over. The problem with that kind of judgement is that we didn't just receive a massive adrenaline dump and our heart rate isn't approaching 200.
Italicized words in brackets above added by me for clarity. Whether the armed attacker has been shot eight times or eighteen times…if he is still fighting he is STILL fighting. If the order in which multiple attackers are addressed requires a fleeting moment of "triage" and reassessment, so be it.
jmorris
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Pretty quick, but when your running .2-.3 splits on transitions, things happen quickly. Being a competitive pistol shooter myself, maybe I am seeing different things than others.
At 1:20 in he has already shot both bad guys once. Starting with the top (further away) bad guy but we can’t see everything he can to understand why.
Taken a couple at this point but still clearly has his gun.
Then fall to his knees. I figured at this point he wants a little more of the closer target, the first guy he shot.
And he transitions back to top bad guy, doesn’t look to me like he took a shot though, not sure why (A pillar in sight picture?) but that should give you an idea of how fast he can make a decision under stress, because that transition and lack of a shot was two and if you blinked, you miss them both.
and he comes back to our sidewalk guy, firing and closing distance.
That’s a lot going on in 2 seconds (mostly 1 second) of video and he made several shoot/no shoot decisions.
Perhaps he was thinking even further ahead and decided that finishing off the sidewalk guy and getting back to cover was a better decision than spending the extra time in the open to recover the dropped firearm.?
Would be neat to know how many of his shots impacted and what percentage of them were in the front vs back.
Ok, how do we know when that is? It’s obviously subjective. I am not seeing an aggressive move from the guy after he falls to the sidewalk like a sack of potato’s.
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We don't and can't know when the shooter knows the threat is ended. What we have here is video, we don't have any statement from the shooter. We don't have any police report to review. We don't know anything about him except that he's a competitive shooter. Again it comes down to training and perception, was he afraid the sidewalk guy would get up and go for the gun? We don't know what prompted him to make that last shot. Would a US jury buy that he saw the guy wasn't incapacitated (he was still moving) and the last shot was justified? I don't know. If he faces any justice it will be in Brazil and I have no idea what's legal and accepted there.
@jmorris…my vague recollection is this footage was from Brazil. Unsure when it occurred.
My anticipation is little grace is extended to criminal assailants who complain about "unfair" R.O.E.
They had multiple opportunities to NOT be bad guys and to NOT attack an innocent passerby.
My anticipation is little grace is extended to criminal assailants who complain about "unfair" R.O.E.
They had multiple opportunities to NOT be bad guys and to NOT attack an innocent passerby.
jmorris
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True and it’s not uncommon at all for people to see different things or have different feelings. Like the Vegas smoke shop jumper was or was not a threat, as another example.
Agreed but these days, in many places in the USA, DA’s look for anything they can charge a “vigilante” with. They just can’t say, “thank you.”
Like the clerk in NY they charged with murder (luckily dismissed) for defending himself, inside his place of work, after being attacked.
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Years ago I posted a thread here on how you can't get the whole story from video. It was dashcam video of a police shooting in a parking lot. It certainly looked like the officer murdered the suspect. But the dash cam video from another squad car on the scene showed that the suspect was armed and the shooting was justified. Sometimes angles make the difference as in that case, sometimes we need audio that we don't have and we often don't get a semi complete picture of what actually happened until the case goes to court.
TomJ
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Two lessons jumped out at me from this video. First, Naperville is a statistically safe Chicago suburb and is constantly ranked as one of the best cities to raise a family in. These things can and do happen anywhere, even in "good" areas.
Second, that officer is alive because he was able to draw his gun and shoot quickly. If you don't practice shooting from a draw you should start doing so.
Second, that officer is alive because he was able to draw his gun and shoot quickly. If you don't practice shooting from a draw you should start doing so.
The Night Rider
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Corriea said it was justified because the robber was moving towards his gun.
RetiredUSNChief
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Back to the original posting:
"Would you expect someone stopping next to you in a car to jump out and try to kill you without warning?"
In a very similar scenario, yes I believe I would. Because there is more to this than just a car stopping next to me in this particular scenario.
The speed at which the car approached, sweerved, and braked would be a clue. Happening "out of the blue" is a clue. This whole approach scene is rife with clues that something was amiss.
The officer clearly noticed many of these clues because he quite obviously observed the vehicle approach, swerve over towards him, the guy moving to get out...and clearly prepared for a potential encounter by getting a grip on his service weapon, turning to face the individual, and started backing up to allow engagement room for deploying his weapon.
Yes...SOME encounters are truly without warning. But that's a small percentage. Most encounters have signs which can be interpreted, often early enough to start changing your posture ahead of time. Being situationally alert is key.
And yes...SOME encounters move very rapidly even with the earliest possible warning to act upon.
Would I, personally, be prepared to take rapid defensive action? I would like to THINK so, but so far the encounters I've had haven't escalated to the point where I've actually had to follow through with deadly force. There are two times in my life where I have drawn a handgun...and thankfully both times resulted in no actual discharge. One time I recognized the signs far enough in advance to be openly prepared for an obvious attack attempt (man in a car cut me off on my bicycle at night and got out with a tire iron in hand and aggressively approached me). The other time I stupidly didn't recognize what was about to happen until after the guy made his attack attempt by first grabbing for my holstered weapon.
I like to think that I've learned from those encounters. Certainly the couple of times since then that I thought the circumstances were extremely suspect did not evolve into violence, I believe as a direct result of it being painfully obvious that I was aware of the other person's suspicious behavior and actively maneuvering myself (and my family) into a more advantageous posture. I'll never really know, though, since nothing every happened those times.
"Would you expect someone stopping next to you in a car to jump out and try to kill you without warning?"
In a very similar scenario, yes I believe I would. Because there is more to this than just a car stopping next to me in this particular scenario.
The speed at which the car approached, sweerved, and braked would be a clue. Happening "out of the blue" is a clue. This whole approach scene is rife with clues that something was amiss.
The officer clearly noticed many of these clues because he quite obviously observed the vehicle approach, swerve over towards him, the guy moving to get out...and clearly prepared for a potential encounter by getting a grip on his service weapon, turning to face the individual, and started backing up to allow engagement room for deploying his weapon.
Yes...SOME encounters are truly without warning. But that's a small percentage. Most encounters have signs which can be interpreted, often early enough to start changing your posture ahead of time. Being situationally alert is key.
And yes...SOME encounters move very rapidly even with the earliest possible warning to act upon.
Would I, personally, be prepared to take rapid defensive action? I would like to THINK so, but so far the encounters I've had haven't escalated to the point where I've actually had to follow through with deadly force. There are two times in my life where I have drawn a handgun...and thankfully both times resulted in no actual discharge. One time I recognized the signs far enough in advance to be openly prepared for an obvious attack attempt (man in a car cut me off on my bicycle at night and got out with a tire iron in hand and aggressively approached me). The other time I stupidly didn't recognize what was about to happen until after the guy made his attack attempt by first grabbing for my holstered weapon.
I like to think that I've learned from those encounters. Certainly the couple of times since then that I thought the circumstances were extremely suspect did not evolve into violence, I believe as a direct result of it being painfully obvious that I was aware of the other person's suspicious behavior and actively maneuvering myself (and my family) into a more advantageous posture. I'll never really know, though, since nothing every happened those times.
Cops do. The average citizen, probably not. A patrol officer views every encounter as a possible attack. Complacency kills. This officer wasn’t complacent. I approached a lot of traffic stops with my hand on my weapon as I walked up on the car. There were some I approached with my weapon in hand concealed behind my thigh if things felt hinky.
The Night Rider
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Would you expect someone to respond to a fender bender by getting out of their car and opening fire on you?
Of course not, no one would but it happened.
If I don't know you and you're going out of your way to engage me you are a threat.
RetiredUSNChief
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Keep in mind that I was, in turn, answering a question posted in the OP.
Another thing to consider is that NONE of us can be 100% engaged in situational awareness 100% of the time. It's simply not within our capacity as human beings.
What we CAN do, however, is train ourselves to recognize, and queue into, certain events which then lead us to a heighten sense of awareness more appropriate to current events. THAT is far more dooable as human beings and is something we can all train ourselves to do.
I've a brother who teaches this as part of his martial arts training, and did so during his time in the Marines. Paying attention to what your senses are telling you and learning to associate that information with the reality of the world around you is key. If "something" is telling you there's something amiss, it's NOT some mystical psychic ability. It's your mind interpreting real-world sensory input and noting that something is "out of place".
An example he used to give to people he trained in the miltary is "silence". Most people associate "silence" as nothing more than the absence of sound and that being "silent" is a way of being undetectable. Everybody knows about the classical "everything went silent" moment in the woods just before all Hell breaks loose. But it's more than that. Silence can also be a "hole" in the normal fabric of the world around you caused by someone blocking the background sounds from reaching your ears. This is the kind of subtle thing that can raise the prickly hairs on the back of your neck that some people ascribe to "ESP". It's not...it's a real world sensory data input that triggered some awareness in your mind. The "trick" is to recognize these things for what they are and train yourself to be aware of them.
You don't HAVE to be some mystical ninja to develop this. You simply have to know how to look for, and interpret, various queues. When you're walking down the street, LOOK at the people around you. WATCH their eyes. What's their body language telling you? When you're in a crowd, does the sound "shift" in some particular direction? These are things that tell you when you need to increase your awareness, at least until you're satisfied there is nothing to be concerned about.
Another thing to consider is that NONE of us can be 100% engaged in situational awareness 100% of the time. It's simply not within our capacity as human beings.
What we CAN do, however, is train ourselves to recognize, and queue into, certain events which then lead us to a heighten sense of awareness more appropriate to current events. THAT is far more dooable as human beings and is something we can all train ourselves to do.
I've a brother who teaches this as part of his martial arts training, and did so during his time in the Marines. Paying attention to what your senses are telling you and learning to associate that information with the reality of the world around you is key. If "something" is telling you there's something amiss, it's NOT some mystical psychic ability. It's your mind interpreting real-world sensory input and noting that something is "out of place".
An example he used to give to people he trained in the miltary is "silence". Most people associate "silence" as nothing more than the absence of sound and that being "silent" is a way of being undetectable. Everybody knows about the classical "everything went silent" moment in the woods just before all Hell breaks loose. But it's more than that. Silence can also be a "hole" in the normal fabric of the world around you caused by someone blocking the background sounds from reaching your ears. This is the kind of subtle thing that can raise the prickly hairs on the back of your neck that some people ascribe to "ESP". It's not...it's a real world sensory data input that triggered some awareness in your mind. The "trick" is to recognize these things for what they are and train yourself to be aware of them.
You don't HAVE to be some mystical ninja to develop this. You simply have to know how to look for, and interpret, various queues. When you're walking down the street, LOOK at the people around you. WATCH their eyes. What's their body language telling you? When you're in a crowd, does the sound "shift" in some particular direction? These are things that tell you when you need to increase your awareness, at least until you're satisfied there is nothing to be concerned about.
I do not know what you mean by that, but i would not want to be quoted in a court of law as having said it.
It is reasonable to perceive people "going out of their way to engage you" as a threat. Makes sense to me.
For example:
I am walking and see someone far ahead approaching. So I courteously cross road to give everyone room.
Then they cross to my same side. Hmmm. Then I cross again and they cross a second time to "match" me.
That unknown person is clearly going out of their way. I would absolutely perceive that person as a threat.
For example:
I am walking and see someone far ahead approaching. So I courteously cross road to give everyone room.
Then they cross to my same side. Hmmm. Then I cross again and they cross a second time to "match" me.
That unknown person is clearly going out of their way. I would absolutely perceive that person as a threat.
The Night Rider
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Then how was your advice regarding it relevant? I mean, you literally just said "I have no idea what I'm talking about but I'm going to talk about it"
Quote me.
I have several years practical experience dealing with Street People and petty criminals. I did it for a living.
There are classic behaviors that people engage in when they're setting you up for an assault. And I can quote recognised SMEs like Masad Ayoob, Tom Givens, Craig Douglas, Kathy Jackson, Tatiana Whitlock (shall I go on?) and others who are on record as saying the exact same thing. They even give classes on how to recognize it.
I have become aware of these behaviors as a result of my training and experience. When I see a person that I don't know engaging in these pre assaultive behaviors and they're directing those behaviors at me I find it to be a cause for concern.
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