Concealed carry at a gun show?

[christcorp]

Sam; you really can't be that blind. I've read too many of your posts. You appear to be an open minded person. But for some reason, you are hell bent convinced that some how in order to respect someone else's rights, that we have to give up our rights. There are times when we CHOOSE not to exercise our rights. You do it every day. I am 100% positive that you don't carry your gun 24/7 365 a year. You obviously make choices in your life. We all make choices. Every choice we make in life has a pro/con risk attached to it. That is life, and you can't get away from it. Whether you decide to drive your car, take a bus, walk, eat at certain restaurants, go to your kid's soccer game, etc... you are taking risks. Again; welcome to the real world.

No, you aren't giving up your rights. You are exercising your right. If you CHOOSE to go to your son's high school football game; then (In most states) it is against the law to carry a weapon onto public school grounds. So; you make a choice whether to go or not. Now yes; there are 3 choices. 1. Don't go; 2. Go, and don't take a gun; or 3. Go, take your gun, disrespect the law and take your chances. (Personally, the WORST choice in this scenario to ME, is (1). To put your gun rights or anything else over your children is definitely the worst. But that aside, you are exercising your Right to make a choice. And it's YOUR CHOICE. You aren't FORCED to go. You aren't FORCED to stay away. The same with other people's private property. Whether it's residential, business, lease to a gun show, etc... You have the RIGHT to choose to attend or not. You are definitely not giving up your rights. And you didn't answer the question about your work place. If you worked some place that didn't allow guns (I have and do work at such places); would you simply QUIT the job or Carry the Gun to work anyway and HOPE for the best?

Rockwell; I've already answered your question; but I will say it again. It DOESN'T MATTER if any harm comes to you carrying your gun into a gun show or not. That has absolutely NOTHING to do with the argument. The argument is: You and Sam; and a few others; Believe that you HAVE THE RIGHT to go ANYPLACE that you want to and carry your gun. You don't believe that a property owner has the right to tell you not to bring a gun onto the property. The ONLY reason you don't carry in LEGALLY restricted places is because you are AFRAID of being arrested and losing your CCW Permit. But because a Private Property owner ISN'T THE LAW; you have absolutely no respect for them or their property at all. That is the TRUTH and that is what this argument is about.

And divemedic; I WON'T even entertain your comments because you refuse to read, let alone TRY and comprehend. I've repeatedly mentioned your trivial type of scenarios. Those have been answered quite clearly. Either READ and COMPREHEND or don't even bother asking.

I asked the original question to see if there were SIGNS or POSTINGS at the various gun shows specifically stating whether or not to enter with concealed weapons. Because at our gun shows; I don't RECALL seeing them. It was NEVER a question of whether I WOULD or WOULDN'T carry. If the property owner has a policy of No loaded weapons of ANY KIND; then I don't carry in the gun show. If I don't agree with that; then I DON'T go to the gun show. Why is that so difficult? You all can't be blind. Are you so scared for your life that you can't go anyplace without your gun? If so; how do you go to work if your employer doesn't allow guns? Do you ever go to a bar for a drink with friends? Do you ever go to a school sporting event? Is the only reason that you don't carry to these places is because you FEAR the law? Obviously you don't RESPECT the law. Only fear it.

Personally; this thread got it's answer many pages ago. It's fine with me if it closes. It's also fine to keep it going. I personally will allow you all to have the final say in anything you want. There is no reasoning here. I'm not asking you to agree with ME. What I am speaking of is basic respect for other people's rights, just like you want them to respect your rights. And NO, you do not give up your rights because you are respecting someone else's rights. That is pure rationalizing. If you CHOOSE to not go into a place because they don't want you to bring in a gun; then you are exercising your rights; you are keeping your gun; and you ARE RESPECTING the property owner's Rights to do as s/he pleases with their property.

Anyway; thanks to those of you who answered my question about the gun shows. I'll check out to see if there is a sign this weekend. If there isn't a sign mentioning ccw weapons; or something that implies ALL weapons; then I'll carry in. If it is clear that they also mean Concealed Carry; then I won't carry in.

 

[divemedic]

What I am speaking of is basic respect for other people's rights, just like you want them to respect your rights.

and I am saying that your rights stop where mine begin. You cannot claim that if I am on your property that you have the right to punch me in the nose, and I am also saying that if you wish to have the right to dictate what happens on your property, you should have to bear responsibility when things go awry on that property.

Or are you claiming that you should have control over your property, without the responsibility that goes with it?

 

[danbrew]

You and Sam; and a few others; Believe that you HAVE THE RIGHT to go ANYPLACE that you want to and carry your gun. You don't believe that a property owner has the right to tell you not to bring a gun onto the property. The ONLY reason you don't carry in LEGALLY restricted places is because you are AFRAID of being arrested and losing your CCW Permit. But because a Private Property owner ISN'T THE LAW; you have absolutely no respect for them or their property at all. That is the TRUTH and that is what this argument is about.

That's exactly my perspective. And if I feel the need to carry 24x7 and "need" to go to one of those places where I can't legally carry, I won't visit those places.

I'll check out to see if there is a sign this weekend. If there isn't a sign mentioning ccw weapons; or something that implies ALL weapons; then I'll carry in. If it is clear that they also mean Concealed Carry; then I won't carry in.

Perhaps it would be a good idea for you to proactively notify the management of every establishment that you visit that you are lawfully carrying CCW, but wanted to advise them of that fact in case it went against their wishes? You could then make an informed call about respecting their rights as a property owner?

snicker, sorry, couldn't resist. yeah, probably would be best to close this thread - the two sides will never see eye to eye.

:banghead:

 

[DammitBoy]

are you claiming that you should have control over your property, without the responsibility that goes with it?

Nobody is saying that. Every property owner or leasee is responsible and liable for what happens on his property. That's exactly why the property owner has a right to decide what happens on his property. It's exactly why you should respect his wishes on his property.

I don't know what gun shows you go to, but the ones I go to are swarming with cops, inside and outside the venue. I think that covers the property owner providing a safe environment. The only time I don't feel safe at a gun show now will be when I'll be wondering which dumbass is carrying a loaded gun because the rules of the house don't apply to him.

He's also trying to provide a safe environment for all involved by prohibiting loaded weapons in an environment full of people handling guns. I've never heard of a robbery or intentional shooting at a gun show. I have heard of accidental discharges caused by somebody who thought he was above the safety concerns of everybody else at the show.

 

[Sam1911]

Sam; you really can't be that blind. I've read too many of your posts. You appear to be an open minded person.

Open minded? Maybe, maybe not. But being open minded doesn't mean I have to agree with your perspective.

Calling me "blind" because I don't agree with you is not a persuasive debating technique. It is mildly insulting, in fact, and if I was the type to let that sort of thing get under my skin, calling me "blind" would pretty much guarantee that I would never come around to your point of view.

In this case, that's probably a moot point, but I'm sure you see what I'm saying. Stick to the message -- drop the ad hominem comments.

But for some reason, you are hell bent convinced that some how in order to respect someone else's rights, that we have to give up our rights.

Well that's odd. I believe I was calling you out for the same thing!

There are times when we CHOOSE not to exercise our rights. You do it every day. I am 100% positive that you don't carry your gun 24/7 365 a year. You obviously make choices in your life. We all make choices. Every choice we make in life has a pro/con risk attached to it. That is life, and you can't get away from it. Whether you decide to drive your car, take a bus, walk, eat at certain restaurants, go to your kid's soccer game, etc... you are taking risks. Again; welcome to the real world.

Yes. Of course. What does driving vs. walking have to do with this? I do not choose to carry at all times, for reasons we will discuss below, but if it is LEGAL, I do so. Always.

No, you aren't giving up your rights. You are exercising your right.

Exercising my right by not exercising my right, against my will?

If you CHOOSE to go to your son's high school football game; then (In most states) it is against the law to carry a weapon onto public school grounds. So; you make a choice whether to go or not. Now yes; there are 3 choices. 1. Don't go; 2. Go, and don't take a gun; or 3. Go, take your gun, disrespect the law and take your chances. (Personally, the WORST choice in this scenario to ME, is (1). To put your gun rights or anything else over your children is definitely the worst.

Personally, I think the WORST choice is to not care enough about your life and that of your child to be armed to the extent that you legally can be.

"Legally" is important. Just as there is a certain low, but present, risk that someone may try to do us harm, there is a low, but present, risk that if I violate the law I will be arrested and prosecuted. I do not follow "victim disarmament zone" laws because they are RIGHT or even, in my opinion Constitutional, but because the risks to myself and my family are very severe should I be prosecuted for a legal violation. There is no morality in it. In fact, there are times when I am disgusted by my own "cowardace" in not ignoring this affront to life and liberty. However, I am all about practicality, and jail / loss of freedoms is in some ways just as significant a risk as assault on my person. So I make the decisions that I do.

But that aside, you are exercising your Right to make a choice. And it's YOUR CHOICE. You aren't FORCED to go. You aren't FORCED to stay away. The same with other people's private property. Whether it's residential, business, lease to a gun show, etc... You have the RIGHT to choose to attend or not. You are definitely not giving up your rights. And you didn't answer the question about your work place. If you worked some place that didn't allow guns (I have and do work at such places); would you simply QUIT the job or Carry the Gun to work anyway and HOPE for the best?

If I worked some place that didn't allow guns, but where I was LEGALLY on sure ground, I probably would do so. Again, I have to weigh the risk to my family of losing my job, but that probably wouldn't be a significant deterrant. Loss of a job is not as big a deal to me as loss of life in a workplace shooting.

As it is, I work in another state. That state almost universally prohibits the right to carry any self-defense items. The penalties for being caught in violation of that law would cause irrevocable harm to my family. I do not willingly abide by these laws, but I've weighed the options. (And, yes, I am on a constant hunt for employment in my field in a locale that will eliminate this problem.)

You and Sam; and a few others; Believe that you HAVE THE RIGHT to go ANYPLACE that you want to and carry your gun. You don't believe that a property owner has the right to tell you not to bring a gun onto the property.

By Jove, I think he's GOT IT! The owner has no right to control what I carry for defense of self in the gravest extreme. Now we're on track!

The ONLY reason you don't carry in LEGALLY restricted places is because you are AFRAID of being arrested and losing your CCW Permit.

Good, good. Now we're in tune! Except, let me clarify, losing the permit is not the real fear. Financial, legal, and emotional harm to my family due to my incarceration and or legal troubles would be what I am AFRAID of. Or, put another way, are the negatives that I weigh when I make my decisions about going armed.

But because a Private Property owner ISN'T THE LAW; you have absolutely no respect for them or their property at all. That is the TRUTH and that is what this argument is about.

Once more, for the Kewpie Doll, I DO respect the owner, I DO respect his rights to his property. I DON'T accept that his rights are affected either positively or negatively by my personal defensive weapon which he will have neither knowledge of nor any repurcussions from.

And, in the insightful words of Danbrew, you care so very much about these businessmen's opinions about your personal weapon, please tell me you check with each of them before crossing their property lines, right? To do less would be COMPREHENSIVELY hypocritical.

And divemedic; I WON'T even entertain your comments because you refuse to read, let alone TRY and comprehend. I've repeatedly mentioned your trivial type of scenarios.

TRIVIAL? What in the world is TRIVIAL about the scenario he posited? And, no, you have provided no acceptable answer. If you can't offer a logical counter to the weighty issue he raises, then you have conceeded.

If the property owner has a policy of No loaded weapons of ANY KIND; then I don't carry in the gun show. If I don't agree with that; then I DON'T go to the gun show. Why is that so difficult?

Not difficult at all. You don't go. I do. I guess I'll ask you, why is that so difficult?

If so; how do you go to work if your employer doesn't allow guns? Do you ever go to a bar for a drink with friends? Do you ever go to a school sporting event?

Covered, except that, in my state I can and do carry in bars.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

Nobody is saying that. Every property owner or leasee is responsible and liable for what happens on his property. That's exactly why the property owner has a right to decide what happens on his property. It's exactly why you should respect his wishes on his property.

Woah there! No property owner is going to give a good rat's patootie that you or your family were executed on his property. I mean, as a human being, he'll probably feel a bit down about the whole thing, but you'll be a LONG time waiting for him to compensate you for your loss. He is not RESPONSIBLE to defend you. LIABLE? No way in he!! No court in the land will uphold your claims against him merely because he asked you to disarm, you complied, and a third party entered the establishment and killed your loved ones. And guess what? "Compensation" monetarily (there can be no other compensation) for my loss and injury is never going to hold a candle to the value I place on my life and my loved ones. Even if "compensation" could be ensured, it is irrelevant.

So, if he cannot be responsible, you must be. Abdicate that responsibility if you wish (if you CAN), but don't tell me that I must.

I don't know what gun shows you go to, but the ones I go to are swarming with cops, inside and outside the venue. I think that covers the property owner providing a safe environment.

Asked and answered. See post #126.

The only time I don't feel safe at a gun show now will be when I'll be wondering which dumbass is carrying a loaded gun because the rules of the house don't apply to him.

And any time you see that person's gun, he can be immediately removed from the premesis. If you don't see his gun you have NO worries. Otherwise, why would you support concealed carry ANYWHERE? Gun show, daycare, bar, or city street. CCW is CCW. Support it or don't. There's no halfway.

He's also trying to provide a safe environment for all involved by prohibiting loaded weapons in an environment full of people handling guns.

Covered. There is a proceedure in place. Read post #109.

I've never heard of a robbery or intentional shooting at a gun show. I have heard of accidental discharges caused by somebody who thought he was above the safety concerns of everybody else at the show.

Covered, covered, and covered. The fact that you haven't heard of a gun-show shooting is poor evidence that it won't happen. The fact that you may be safe standing in the middle of a gun show doesn't mean you're safe in and around the premesis. The requirement to leave your CCW at HOME is absurd. The suggestion that thousands of folks should stand in the parking lot and clear their weapons before entry is insanely dangerous and dramatically increases the likelyhood of theft.

Why are we revisiting these easily dismissed or answered red herrings over and over? Does the lack of a more developed argument really require rehashing points we've already worked through?

-Sam

 

[razorback2003]

I Carry

I carry a handgun everytime I go to a gun show in Tennessee. There are no laws against carrying at gun shows in TN and the signs do not mean anything legally. There may be police or security guards, but the worst that can happen is that they can ask me to leave. I do conceal and I do NOT carry a handgun that I plan on selling/trading. The handgun stays in my pocket.

I also go to gun shows in Little Rock and again, I carry a loaded handgun following the above procedures of carrying a handgun I do not intend to swap or sell. Arkansas is the same as TN in that the worst that can happen, legally, is me being asked to leave the show, if found out. I carry a small, easily concealed handgun when going to gun shows.

Zip tied unloaded handguns do not do me a lot of good in the parking lots where some of these gun shows are held. They are often not in the greatest parts of town and I am not fooling with loading and unloading my self defense handgun. If one cannot be mature enough to leave his loaded self defense handgun in his pocket while attending a gun show, he may need to rethink the idea of even having a handgun carry permit/concealed handgun license.

 

[rocky branch]

I have seen 3 ADs at gunshows.
No casualties.

Too many variables at a gunshow to support packing-leave it in the car.

I always wonder about the dealers who are strapped.
What are they going to do?
Blaze away into the crowd if somebody transgresses?

Some fool once put forth that a small ural gunshow could be raided and taken over and robbed by a gang.

 

[catspa]

Rocky branch, I have seen 3 armed robberies (not at gunshows). No casualties.

Would I be justified in arguing that there are too many variables during an armed robbery to support carrying concealed in a store or restaurant? Look where that got Suzanne Gratia.

Do you wonder as well about citizens CCW'ing in a mall, at a concert, or a Boy Scout jamboree? Because it's not a lot different.

A while back, some fool predicted that a gang of Muslim a$$-hats could hijack an airliner and smash it into a building. Turns out after it happened, that he didn't look so foolish after all.

Parker

 

[Sam1911]

Too many variables at a gunshow to support packing-leave it in the car.

Asked and answered, read post #109. And ... and...oh, just go read the first 7 pages...

I always wonder about the dealers who are strapped.
What are they going to do?
Blaze away into the crowd if somebody transgresses?

Transgresses? CCW isn't for inventory control. Life or death, only. "Gravest Extreme." If the "crowd" concern is going to be enough reason to not carry at a gun show, better not carry at a mall, concert, the bus/subway, on a city street, etc., etc., etc.

Some fool once put forth that a small ural gunshow could be raided and taken over and robbed by a gang.

I didn't know they had gun shows in the Urals. I've seen the videos from the ones near the Khyber pass, though and WOW. Wouldn't try anything funny with THOSE guys. But then, their guns are loaded.

Oh, and welcome to the forum.

-Sam

 

[Rockwell1]

If one cannot be mature enough to leave his loaded self defense handgun in his pocket while attending a gun show, he may need to rethink the idea of even having a handgun carry permit/concealed handgun license.

8 pages and it all boils down to this

And I notice that still noone has taken a shot at my question

 

[Gryffydd]

here are 3 choices. 1. Don't go; 2. Go, and don't take a gun; or 3. Go, take your gun, disrespect the law and take your chances.

I like the way you worded this christcorp. I can't imagine why you didn't write

1. Don't go; 2. Go, and don't take a gun, and take your chances being defenseless and disrespect the safety of your family, or 3. Go and take your gun.

See the difference?

 

[DammitBoy]

Nice Dan, what is that you're riding?

 

[divemedic]

He's also trying to provide a safe environment for all involved by prohibiting loaded weapons in an environment full of people handling guns.

I've never heard of a robbery or intentional shooting at a gun show. I have heard of accidental discharges caused by somebody who thought he was above the safety concerns of everybody else at the show.

Again, if you do as I do and leave your weapon in the holster unless you need it for self defense, then there is no danger of an AD. Having cops for security is no guarantee that you will have a safe show with no NDs. There was a gunshow recently where a cop had a ND.

Remember that even if there are cops inside the show, there is no protection in the parking lot, and you are just as helpless a victim there. Here in Orlando, there was an armed robbery outside of the gunshow just last year. A dealer was held up in the parking lot and 15 guns were stolen, along with several thousand dollars in cash.

I will bet you that the gun show promoter didn't "do the moral thing" and reimburse the dealer for his loss, and I bet Orlando (the owner of the property) didn't either. So much for morals, so much for police security, and I will continue to carry, because it is not illegal and I can.

 

[razorback2003]

This is exactly why i carry EVERYWHERE....church, out to eat, parks, even...oh my goodness....GUN SHOWS! I am discreet...keep my mout shut..and stay low key. No one ever knows that I have a J frame snub in a pocket holster, so there are no feelings hurt or offended. I'm just trying to protect myself. Any guns i wish to trade or sell are not loaded and in my pocket! A gun left in my car or unloaded and zip tied does me no good for self defense. I didn't get a handgun carry permit in TN to carry around a zip tied un loaded gun.

 

[dullh]

Gun shows where I live forbid concealed carry - and there are cops at the door enforcing it. It's held in a public building (Asheville Civic Center) which is probably the reason for the ban. Now, people can openly carry guns around on them that are for sale, but on the way in the cops put a huge orange tie-wrap through the action.

Forbidden CCW ain't what stopped me from going to the local gun show - overpriced crap, militia booths and novelty items are why I don't go anymore.

 

[catspa]

I hear ya, dullh, although i have a custom knife I bought once from a smith who only sells at shows.

Parker

 

[rondog]

Nice Dan, what is that you're riding?

Um, that would be a Ural! It's a Russian-made copy of a BMW, wouldn't mind having one me own self. Good bikes, tough as nails, and the sidecar wheel is driven off the rear wheel.

Dan needs a nice Mosin slung over his shoulders when he rides that beast.

 

[DammitBoy]

You guys are going to the wrong gun shows. The ones I go to, you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a cop - inside or outside the show.

 

[danbrew]

It's a 2007 Ural "Gear Up". The Ural is based upon a 1930s-era (or so) BMW R/71. The commies invaded Germany at some point, took the factory apart, brought it back to mother-Russia piece by piece and assembled the plant in Irbit, Russia. They've produced over 3M of these bikes over the year, and about 500 or so are imported in to the US (for the last few years).

It's a real piece of crap. A RPAC. A Russian Piece of Crap. But a lot of fun. Top speed is about 60 mph and it's definitely not the type of bike you'd put on the freeway. But it hauls a ton of stuff, it's fun, the dog likes it, the kids like it, and it's a great way to get away for a long weekend camping trip. I'm taking two+ weeks this summer and am going to ride from the Midwest to Maine and back on back roads. Gonna wander through Canada on the way their or back and the Midwest and New England on the other way.

 

[catspa]

DammitBoy, are you referring to a cop with a loaded gun? Kinda weakens the "rules apply to everybody" argument.

Parker

 

[KingMedicine]

Yeah, so i just spent about an hour reading every reply to this question and conversation. First, i need to point out that i must be bored at work to go over this thing from post 1 to 180.

Ya know, since its someone elses gun show and i am not required to be there, ill wrap my pistol up. Its not about my rights or any laws, its about them having a event that i want to be apart of, and having to do something at there request. I do live in idaho tho, so its not like i am too worried about getting mugged on the way out.

 

[DammitBoy]

DammitBoy, are you referring to a cop with a loaded gun? Kinda weakens the "rules apply to everybody" argument.

Don't be silly. My post was in response to the individual who said, if you are asked to disarm, the show promoter must assume responsibility for protecting people going to the show with security.

Three cops working the parking lot, two cops working the door, and three cops on the floor seems like the promoter of the shows I go to is providing ample security.

With cops watching the parking lot, I feel comfortable leaving my pistol locked in my truck. I also figure I'll survive crossing 100 feet of parking lot.

My understanding of the law in my state is that if a property owner puts up a sign saying no guns, you cannot carry on their premises.

*shrugs*

I feel that when I purchase a ticket for entry into a show, I've entered into an agreement with the show promoter to respect and honor his wishes on how I should behave as his guest. If I disagreed strongly enough with his requests - I would vote with my feet and money and not attend his show.

It's that simple show respect or don't show up. You don't have a 'right' to go to his show, you are a guest.

 

[christcorp]

"Amen"

 

[catspa]

I'm terminally silly. I can't help it - I was born that way.

I just observe that for a guy who says the rules apply to everybody, you apparently don't mean everybody. Maybe what you mean is, "everybody we say they apply to".

Parker