Cop bashing

[AK-74me]

First off, I am not a cop but I generally have good feelings towards them. Now I know there are some bad apple Cops but there are several board members here that constantly make post bad mouthing cops. In fact there are a few in particular that I can think who almost exclusively make these kind of post. It is like almost an obession it seems for some of you to dig up stories of bad cops. What I want to know is what is it that made you this way? And how come all this paranoia of a police state?

It just gives me this perception of some of you......... Hunkered down in a cabin somewhere in BFE Montana, crouched down below a window with a white knuckle grip on a rifle in both hands.

 

[P95Carry]

AK - almost any mention of LE or LE oriented incidents will bring out the bashing - it is a consequence IMO of the extreme end of the ''them and us''.

I can criticize along with anyone - there are problems need addressed - same as in any career or profession but - sadly it takes off usually toward ad hom's or close to it - with actually little ground gained or lost by either ''side''. We all for the most part can see problems in ''the system'' - and can usefully discuss it - but after a certain stage it seems to deteriorate and the so called ''bashing'' becomes dominant.

I am one of the irritating folks who ''sees both sides'' and there are two IMO - good on both and bad on both - it will ever be thus. I therefore even if criticizing try not to ''take sides'' - discussion is good - it brings things into the open but geez, when that goes beyond into flames it gets old real quick.

Any contributions to this should bear this in mind - I and most mod's are tired of the almost predictable course the LE threads run - and so there is dare I say - less leaway now - if things get too hot - that's it. We will close - THR does not need it.

 

[Justin]

Any contributions to this should bear this in mind - I and most mod's are tired of the almost predictable course the LE threads run - and so there is dare I say - less leaway now - if things get too hot - that's it. We will close - THR does not need it.

Seconded. Cop bashing/loving threads have gotten almost as annoying and infuriating as AK vs. AR or 9mm vs. .45.

 

[AK-74me]

Right

And I by no means intend to start a war here. Like I said I am not a cop. So I don't want to be seen as a "cop lover" but I have noticed a whole lot of cop bashing going on here and it makes me wonder what is going on with these "cop bashers" constantly posting, like I said almost nothing but info. on bad cops.

 

[Vernal45]

For what its worth, I dont hate LEO's, Used to be one (although have been told via email and PM that several do not believe that, including mods on this board, have told everyone to check me out, will provide info), I hate the EXPANDING POWERS that police are constantly giving/getting for themselves. Powers with no accountability.


http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20030512&s=talvi
The Public Is the Enemy

by SILJA J.A. TALVI

[from the May 12, 2003 issue]

On March 22, a few hundred peaceful antiwar protesters in Seattle who had gathered around the Federal Building suddenly found themselves being swept down streets by officers in riot gear and then corralled onto the sidewalk. As hundreds of officers encircled and trapped them, snipers were spotted on rooftops and cops formed riot lines, holding rubber bullet guns and M-16s. Injuries inflicted on the demonstrators ranged from head wounds to taser burns. So far, the public defender's office has received around 200 complaints about police misconduct, brutality and illegal arrests.

It's all part of an alarming trend that has emerged in the policing of antiwar and social justice demonstrations. The problem seems particularly acute in Seattle, which jumped into international headlines in 1999 when the downtown area became a temporary battlefield during global justice protests at the WTO Ministerial Conference. Since then, the use of militaristic tactics by police has become common. At the 2000 Democratic National Convention in Los Angeles, police fired rubber bullets and tear gas even at those complying with dispersal orders; and at IMF protests in Washington last year some 650 people were arrested and police were accused of brutality toward those detained.

Back in Seattle, nearly four years after the WTO demonstrations, the city has still not fully recovered. If recent antiwar events are any indication, little if anything seems to have been learned. Among those arrested in Seattle on March 22 was public defender Lisa Daugaard, who was handing out information to protesters about a hotline to report police abuses. "This is a public sidewalk," Daugaard responded to an officer who told her to leave immediately. "Not today it's not," the officer is alleged to have responded. Daugaard was arrested and spent the next six hours in jail, where, she reports, officers made fun of protesters with injuries and berated them for being opposed to the war. "These are the kinds of things we never used to see in Seattle before," says Daugaard.

Elsewhere, the New York Police Department seemed to approach the February 15 demonstration as if it were a military "containment and control" operation. Police herded people and then blocked them from exiting, resulting in numerous arrests. Videotapes showed police backing horses into demonstrators, pushing people into metal barricades, pepper-spraying demonstrators and raising nightsticks against penned-in protesters. In late March in Washington, DC, the ACLU filed a federal lawsuit charging police with violating the constitutional rights of more than 400 peaceful demonstrators and "sweeping" citizens (including nonprotesters) into enclosed spaces and then arresting them. In Oakland on April 7, police fired on roughly 500 antiwar protesters with wooden bullets, causing face and body injuries to several activists and working longshoremen who had nothing to do with the protest.

The militarization of law enforcement is a national trend, says Seattle attorney Paul Richmond, who produced Urban Warrior, a new documentary film that examines the blurring of boundaries between military tactics and civilian law enforcement. According to Peter Kraska, editor of Militarizing the American Criminal Justice System, nearly 90 percent of American police departments serving cities with 50,000-plus residents have paramilitary units. A 1999 Cato Institute study of the growth of paramilitarism in American police departments noted that the Pentagon has been equipping those units with M-16s, armed personnel carriers and grenade launchers, and that such units regularly conduct training exercises with Army Rangers and Navy SEALs. Richmond likens the use of military weaponry and police tactics in Seattle to a kind of "market test" of new crowd-control tactics, weapons and even chemical agents that were once used only in combat situations.

Richmond argues that paramilitary police units already appear to have carte blanche to use any and all means to quash dissent. "As long as weapons and tactics like these are in use," he adds, "the civilian population is being viewed as the enemy. Unfortunately, it seems like an indication of what's to come."


More interesting reading. Take it for what it is worth. I dont agree with the author on some things, but I do agree that Militarization in LE is here, happening, and it is a very bad thing.

The Ominous Powers of Federal Law Enforcement
http://www.cato.org/pubs/handbook/hb106/hb106-17.pdf

 

[Taurus 66]

Police officers, in 99 cases out of 100, are just performing the duties to which they were appointed - to serve and protect the community. Perpetrators who get caught and cuffed often take it personal with cops. Why?! The police didn't make the laws anymore than the referees at sporting events make the rules of the game. If anyone has a beef about their arrest or someone else's, he or she ought to start with the legislators, not the enforcers.

 

[nico]

I dont hate LEO's, Used to be one

I'm not trying to start a flamewar or anything. But, honestly, if you were someone else and read your posts would you believe either of the above statements?

 

[jsalcedo]

When I run across a cop out of control piece I post it.

I have personally run across some VERY bad cops. Luckily I have a very cool temper and a disarming disposition which has kept me under their radar.

I have also run across some VERY good cops, professional, courteous, and reasonable.

Police powers have expanded greatly in the last couple of decades and there is an us vs them attitude instilled in many police officers either from training or from fellow officers.


It is imperative that the actions of the police are carefully scrutinized and criticized when necessary.

Super citizens need to be carefully watched and reported on to keep their behavior and power under control.

I usually hate the press regarding most things but reporting police brutality is one of their very desirable functions.

 

[fjolnirsson]

I am one of the irritating folks who ''sees both sides''

Yep. Me, too. As such, I tend to draw fire from both sides.

I must say, when folks start cop bashing, it causes me to hold them in lower esteem, and disregard anything further they have to say.
I have the same reaction when cop supporters circle the blue wagons and refuse to admit the problems nonpolice face these days.

 

[Taurus 66]

I have also run across some VERY good cops, professional, courteous, and reasonable.

Police powers have expanded greatly in the last couple of decades and there is an us vs them attitude instilled in many police officers either from training or from fellow officers.

The last couple of decades is key here. IM0 Very good cops don't become very bad cops, they just lose trust in a society spiraling out of control into unimaginable decadence when it comes to drug use, violence, robberies, high speed chases, mass murder/suicide, you name it. Gang mentality today is "Kill-a-Cop" - a style of initiation. It's no wonder there are numbers on the force who have an overall diminished level of trust for anyone and have a greater propensity for extreme physical force. They simply want to go home to their families at shift's end.

I usually hate the press regarding most things but reporting police brutality is one of their very desirable functions.

Is there much of anything positive mentioned in the media anymore? Where are the search and rescue stories? What about the policeman who doubles as a paramedic, performs CPR, and saves a life? How about the officer who helps on the spot with a delivery? or talks a nut off a bridge or rooftop? Where are those reports?!

The media isn't fair and balanced.

 

[Cosmoline]

The closer an LEO is to me, the more I trust him or her. The local police or troopers may not always behave properly. I have problems with their methods. But I know that if they go too far, I can go to a local office and complain to the people who have the power to hire and fire them. There is some level of control. With federal LEO's, however, there is NO control. They are beholden only to the folks back in Virginia or DC, and can ignore local complaints as much as they want. There was a very good reason the founders established no provisions for the FBI, BATF, or any other alphabet soup law enforcement agencies that emerged from Prohibition and FDR's socialist programs. These agencies may not be unconstitutional, but they are EXTRAconstitutional. They operate outside the bounds of representative government, with such a minimal thread of accountability that they might as well be the redcoats of old. Some of the officers are OK, some of them I detest. But in all cases, their agencies should be destroyed. They are fundamentally un-American, and they only became icons through a coordinated program of propaganda started by a certain well-known self-hating cross dresser.

While local LEO's do a lot to keep the streets safe, the feds must create crimes to punish. So we had Prohibition back at the start of the troubles, and have the "War on Drugs" now. The Feds have no mandate to stop murder, theft, or any other ordinary crime.

 

[duck hunt]

I don't hate cops. My feelings on them are kind of like Henry Chinaski's feelings about people -- I just feel better when they're not around.

 

[justashooter]

i don't hate cops. some are very nice guys. i do hate when people lie, and when a cop does it, the consequences can be especially severe. thank god for videotapes in those moments when cops lie.

 

[jsalcedo]

With federal LEO's, however, there is NO control. They are beholden only to the folks back in Virginia or DC, and can ignore local complaints as much as they want.

This is along the lines of what I'm talking about. Even local agencies seem to have lowered standards for behavior.

Imagine 1955: Would the public or police chief tolerate a policeman using a cattle prod on a handcuffed 13year old girl who was misbehaving?

 

[centac]

Every federal agency of which I am aware has an Office of Professional Responsibility or an Inspector General's Office just for investigating any form of misconduct or malfeasance of thier agents. They are the federal version of internal affairs.

One thing that is frequently to never mentioned is the birth of civilian review boards and the city manager form of government. This enables direct civilian oversight of LE operations. Frequently now in larger agencies internal investigations are also conducted by civilians.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Police officers, in 99 cases out of 100, are just performing the duties to which they were appointed - to serve and protect the community.

They've dropped the "protect" part . . . . not doing that anymore.

 

[scbair]

Cops face the same dilemma as do gun owners, in general.

The overwhelming majority of cops do their jobs (some may be more courteous, more professional, more "seasoned," etc., but that's so in any profession). The overwhelming majority of gun owners are sensible and law-abiding.

From the news media perspective: BORING!!!

Now, that one rogue cop/gun owner who brutalizes a handcuffed prisoner/accepts a bribe, or who shoots up the workplace? DING DING DING We have a winner! The talking head can drone on and on, with a serious look to disguise the glee at having gotten hold of a real headline!

Result? The brainwashed masses, products of a truly pitiful public "education" system paint all cops/gun owners with the brush supplied by the media.

 

[1911 guy]

Individual basis

I try to make my opinions of people one at a time. I've ran into cops that were polite even when they had me pulled over, pleasant when responding to a break in at my business, etc. I've also ran into cops that were the most arrogant blowhards and elitists you can imagine. Luckily most of these have been in non-official encounters. My only problem with the profession as a whole is the job they do of covering for the incompetents. When we get a machinist who can't live up to his resume' he's fired. Not so with the "blue wall". Why is that?

 

[Control Group]

Aside from some people who have had direct, personal experiences with cops abusing power, I think most of the anti-cop sentiment around here isn't specifically directed at cops - or at least, shouldn't be. Police officers aren't the problem, the legal and political system under, through, and with which they work is the problem.

There's a very strong undercurrent of "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" attitude on THR. From a certain point of view, I even agree with it. Lord knows I'm all in favor of criminals being arrested, tried, convicted, and put away. Clearly, the police are crucial to the process in the most literal sense of the word; without them, no one would be arrested. This is the argument trotted out by the pro-officer posters every time someone complains about too-broad police powers, that the police are just doing their job.

Moreover, they're right, the police are just doing their job (except for a very few officers, but it's intellectually bankrupt to condemn the entire profession because of the few bad apples that crop up in every demographic). The problem isn't the police, it's the job itself. For a banal example, consider speeding. Speed limits contribute in large part to the general "us vs. them" attitude much of the public has. Saying "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime" is beyond disingenuous, because it completely ignores the fact that virtually everyone does the crime, and, on a convictions-as-a-percent-of-crimes basis, virtually no one gets caught. Sure, it's easy to say that no one should break the law, but when you've got a law that almost everyone breaks on a routine basis, maybe it's the law that's the problem.

Even more importantly, the more laws you have that "everyone" breaks, the more arbitrary, authoritarian, and objectionable police enforcement of these laws becomes. When you're the one singled out of a stream of traffic all doing 20 over, it's hard to bear in mind "he's just doing his job" instead of "the guy in front of me was going just as fast!" Add onto this that there is an ever-growing list of things that's illegal, and you end up with a population that is, by and large, paranoid about law officers, and with rational, if not good, reason. Add onto that a system whereby the police department actually directly profit from enforcing the law (speeding tickets as revenue), and it's easy to see where a certain degree of cynicism arises. "It's the end of the month, he's probably got to make his quota." "It's the beginning of the month, guess he didn't make quota last time around." "It's the middle of the month, he's saving time on making his quota later." It's tough to consider the police objective enforcers of public policy when you know for a fact that they actually make money from enforcement. This is just one of the inherent problems of law enforcement on a commission basis, but that's a slightly different rant.

In any event, when the law itself is the problem, it's a lose-lose for the officer. Either he doesn't do his job, or he's a JBT. There's a whole class of pseudo-victimless crimes (I say "pseudo" because many of them do have victims, but wouldn't have victims if the activity was legal in the first place. Prostitution is a good example of this) that cause this issue.

When you've got a population that is already and constantly wary regarding the very presence of a police officer, because odds are good they're guilty of something (witness the growing number of high speed chases led by people who have no outstanding warrants or other discernible reason to run), and you toss in the growing militarization of the police, and you toss in growing police powers in pursuit of terror/drugs/pedophiles/crisis-du jour, it really isn't surprising that a number of people consider the police the enemy. They feel they can be stopped and/or arrested on any pretext at any time with no real recourse - and, whether or not any officer would actually do it, they're probably right - and that's the sort of feeling that's bound to make people a tad itchy when it comes right down to it.

It's a lot like customer service: a happy customer tells three people, an unhappy one ten. One no-knock S.W.A.T. raid on the wrong address undoes countless heroic efforts by average officers around the country. The same way all the decent, normal, responsible, rational, average-apple-pie-American gun owners are painted in a bad light by one Bubba's "hold my beer and watch this" stunt with a full-auto, all the decent, hard-working, helpful, and generous officers are held accountable for the one guy who just up and shoots some kid because he had the gall to talk back - I mean, because "he was going for a gun."

I say all this as someone whose every single encounter with an officer has been positive. With one exception, every cop I've dealt with has been unfailingly polite, professional, fair, and generous. Even the exception wasn't all that bad (he just demanded ID from everyone in the car for no reason, and wasn't particularly polite about it). Nonetheless, I'm uncomfortable and nervous around most officers, and all of the above is why.

 

[JohnBT]

"Imagine 1955: Would the public or police chief tolerate a policeman using a cattle prod on a handcuffed 13year old girl who was misbehaving?"

Before or after the parents whipped the kid's butt? The ultimate insult was having to go cut your own switch from the 'switch bush.'

"This is going to hurt me more than it is you." And I was a good kid.

John

 

[centac]

In 1955 there would'nt be a remedy for one who unjustifiably did. Cops were minimally trained and supervision was ad hoc. Juveniles in particular had no due process safeguards.

The good old days really were'nt.

I think a lot of the cop bashing here is based on misperceptions about what actually goes into police work. On the surface it looks like a relatively simple job. This is certainly the spin that Hollywood puts on it. However, it is light years more complex than it appears. People who wouldnt dreram of telling a surgeon how to operate are more than happy to offer their opinion about what the cops shoulda done, based on what little they think they know.. This is incredibly frustrating to us in the field, trying to explain ourselves to people whose main knowledge about policing comes from COPS and the Lethal Weapon series.

 

[gunmoney]

Seems to me that most cops are descent enough but there are a large number of them that have their heads in the clouds with giant egos and neverending powertrips. They seemed to not make the destinction between true criminals and the average person that makes a stupid mistake. Whoever calls the police first no matter what is the victim. Instead of figuring out a situation and solving it right there the officers just charge anyone they can with whatever they can and then let the courts figure it out. At that point a person is screwed, guilty or not. And believe me innocent until proven guilty never applies, you are guilty because the police report or an officer themselves says so. It is then your responsibility and at great personal expense to prove a judge otherwise (who do you think a judge is going to believe an upstanding officer or you, an already "labeled" civilian). Speaking from personal and second hand experience. Most people will never question a cops word so what is stopping them from takeing advantage or being dishonest. My .02

 

[The Rabbi]

Seconded. Cop bashing/loving threads have gotten almost as annoying and infuriating as AK vs. AR or 9mm vs. .45.

Or Legalizing Drugs.
Or Illegal Immigration.

 

[R.H. Lee]

It seems to me that 'bad cops' are in a small minority. When you consider the , what, hundreds of thousands of interactions cops have with citizens every day in this country, the reported cases of abuse of power are not all that great. There are plenty of lawyers willing and eager to sue departments for violations, usually garnering hefty settlements.

Also, it helps to understand what cops do. Their purpose is not to prevent crime, rather to solve crime after it has occurred. We all know what the laws and rules are, and it's not all that difficult to avoid interaction with the police.

 

[Sindawe]

One thing that is frequently to never mentioned is the birth of civilian review boards and the city manager form of government. This enables direct civilian oversight of LE operations.

While its only an N=1, the hew and cry from the police in Denver when a civilian review board had been proposed is deafening. It has taken not a few controversial killings by police to get such in place.