General Geoff
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There was a magic bullet. It was forged by Illuminati mystics to prevent us from learning THE TRUTH.
Could YOU fire a bolt-action that fast?
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slamfirev10
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like John KSa, i've been there, stood looking at the shot locations, and with just a tiny bit of luck, maybe without the luck, i could have made the shots, with that rifle 9 times out of 10
Yeah.
I used to fire my old Enfield as quickly as a semi-auto (accurate fire), and easily hit each time at 100 and 200 meters on a "keyhole" target (see: human torso). Pretty much a shot a second. A shot every other second would feel too slow if you're trying for rapid fire. You just work the bolt with the recoil. Done it with a 8mm Mauser too.
Multiple shots was a sign of an inferior marksman, anyway. The first and only shot should have been the kill shot.
I used to fire my old Enfield as quickly as a semi-auto (accurate fire), and easily hit each time at 100 and 200 meters on a "keyhole" target (see: human torso). Pretty much a shot a second. A shot every other second would feel too slow if you're trying for rapid fire. You just work the bolt with the recoil. Done it with a 8mm Mauser too.
Multiple shots was a sign of an inferior marksman, anyway. The first and only shot should have been the kill shot.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Yes Oswald made the shots and it is possible to do so. The USMC has a long history of turning out Expert Rifleman.
Take a look at exhibit CE239 of the Warren Commission
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wcexhibits.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce239.htm
This is Oswalds 200 standing, 300 yard slowfire, 200 and 300 yard "D" (Hun's head) targets and 500 yard targets.
Looking at Lee's ten shot D target rapid fire groups, he did well with an issue Garand, and issue ammo.
A number of the targets show all shots on the D target.
He was not doing badly at 500 yards either.
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/wcexhibits.htm
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo3/exhibits/ce239.htm
This is Oswalds 200 standing, 300 yard slowfire, 200 and 300 yard "D" (Hun's head) targets and 500 yard targets.
Looking at Lee's ten shot D target rapid fire groups, he did well with an issue Garand, and issue ammo.
A number of the targets show all shots on the D target.
He was not doing badly at 500 yards either.
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Cosmoline
Member
It's entirely possible and the range was not too far. It's a fast little rifle shooting at a target moving gradually away, requiring minor corrections of elevation rather than radical change in windage. It would have been much MORE difficult for him to have hit Kennedy as the limo moved across his field of vision from the sewer grate or grassy knoll. Furthermore, the 6.5 MM RN long slug *IS* a magic bullet. It has the sectional density of a crossbow bolt and can penetrate an elephant. At the Carcano's sedate muzzle velocity it would not have been prone to falling apart, but would have continued trolling through whatever it hit. Which is apparently what the "magic bullet" did in this case.
Putting on my conspiracy hat, the theory that always interested me but receives little attention was the early report, repeated across the news wires, that the LEO's responding had found a "7.65 MAUSER" rifle. Now obviously this could have been a screwup in identification, but then there's the oddly empty evidence bag that was labeled 7.65 found years later which purportedly had contained such a cartridge found in the plaza. Couple that with the theory that the actual shooter was a trained sniper from... ARGENTINA. And the fact that Argie Mausers, particularly the 98 pattern, are capable of phenomenal accuracy. So then you have Oswald sitting in the cafeteria while the real shooter takes his place in the nest. He doesn't want to use the M-C POS the spooks had arranged to have Oswald photographed with, so he uses his own untraceable Argie Mauser. The first responders find it, but it quickly vanishes and the initial reports are "corrected" ;-) The spooks move in quickly to plant 6.5 evidence.
Of course it's more likely the early reports of the 7.65 Mauser were confusing the sporterized version of the 91 Argie with the M-C, both of which look similar to a lay person.
Putting on my conspiracy hat, the theory that always interested me but receives little attention was the early report, repeated across the news wires, that the LEO's responding had found a "7.65 MAUSER" rifle. Now obviously this could have been a screwup in identification, but then there's the oddly empty evidence bag that was labeled 7.65 found years later which purportedly had contained such a cartridge found in the plaza. Couple that with the theory that the actual shooter was a trained sniper from... ARGENTINA. And the fact that Argie Mausers, particularly the 98 pattern, are capable of phenomenal accuracy. So then you have Oswald sitting in the cafeteria while the real shooter takes his place in the nest. He doesn't want to use the M-C POS the spooks had arranged to have Oswald photographed with, so he uses his own untraceable Argie Mauser. The first responders find it, but it quickly vanishes and the initial reports are "corrected" ;-) The spooks move in quickly to plant 6.5 evidence.
Of course it's more likely the early reports of the 7.65 Mauser were confusing the sporterized version of the 91 Argie with the M-C, both of which look similar to a lay person.
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rcmodel
Member in memoriam
While in the Marines, Oswald was trained in the use of the M1 Garand rifle. Following that training, he was tested in December 1956, and obtained a score of 212, which was 2 points above the minimum for qualifications as a sharpshooter. In May 1959, on another range, Oswald scored 191, which was 1 point over the minimum for ranking as a marksman.
Targets not withstanding, he barely qualified as a Sharpshooter once, and three years later barely qualified as a Marksman, which is a low as it gets.
It appears he got worse, not better as his marine training progressed.
And he never did attain an Exprts badge.
So, he wasn't an expert rifleman, no matter how much he dry-fired in his living room.
rc
Targets not withstanding, he barely qualified as a Sharpshooter once, and three years later barely qualified as a Marksman, which is a low as it gets.
It appears he got worse, not better as his marine training progressed.
And he never did attain an Exprts badge.
So, he wasn't an expert rifleman, no matter how much he dry-fired in his living room.
rc
There was a documentary that duplicated the magic bullet shot. They built ballistic gel models, complete with human skeletons, put them in the positions of Kennedy and Connolly, and fired a shot from the proper range and angle, with ammo from the same lot that Oswald used. The result was an almost exact match of the wounds from the magic bullet, even to the bullet passing through Connolly's wrist. The only difference was that the bullet bounced off the thigh of the dummy, where the original bullet lodged in the skin. The bullet even ended up looking like the original, flattened but otherwise undeformed.
As to the rate of fire, my experience is mostly with a Mauser 98 and an M38 Swede, but an aimed shot every two or three seconds isn't tough at all.
As to the rate of fire, my experience is mostly with a Mauser 98 and an M38 Swede, but an aimed shot every two or three seconds isn't tough at all.
The fact is I've been there and the shots were not all that difficult to make. Second, there's no way of knowing how good he became/how much he practiced in the time prior to the shooting. Third, read the post directly below yours. It's absolute truth.
mljdeckard
Member
When I was a kid, I watched JFK, and I thought the world was ending. What I have learned since was that the movie (I won't pretend to know if Jim Garrison's prosecution evidence was the same as presented in the movie or not) was cherry-picked to say the least. In their presentation of the 'magic bullet' theory, they showed sketches of the bullet path which appear to be impossible, because they are in fact impossible. They way they have the clothing, timing, and people lined up is incorrect. (Some of the magic bullet theory criticisms they use depend on conflicting reports of clothing positions to raise questions about the bullet paths.) The first round would have already been chambered, and the time of firing may well have been longer than 6.2 seconds.
As for the shooting itself, I could match the speed, but I would want to use something besides a Carcano. If, as Ayoob suggests (and I have never had a reason to question him) Oswald sat in his living room and practiced working the bolt, he could do it too. A lot of practice, and a little luck, much more amazing shots have been taken.
JFK is long on suspicion and short on answers. How defective was the scope? If the rifle was never test fired, it certainly doesn't prove that Oswald's rifle WASN'T the weapon used either. After all this time, no one is any closer to disproving the Warren Report than at the time it was written.
As for the shooting itself, I could match the speed, but I would want to use something besides a Carcano. If, as Ayoob suggests (and I have never had a reason to question him) Oswald sat in his living room and practiced working the bolt, he could do it too. A lot of practice, and a little luck, much more amazing shots have been taken.
JFK is long on suspicion and short on answers. How defective was the scope? If the rifle was never test fired, it certainly doesn't prove that Oswald's rifle WASN'T the weapon used either. After all this time, no one is any closer to disproving the Warren Report than at the time it was written.
You can shoot a bolt action quite fast as a lefty. Your firing hand stays on the grip and trigger, and your support hand cycles the bolt. If you've got something like a window ledge to rest the rifle on, then you can go that much faster, because your support hand doesn't need to do much supporting as you fire.
I've taken my No4 Enfield to a rifle class, and did pretty well with it. In rapid fire drills, my first two shots were right on par with all the semiauto shooters, and my third shot was only a fraction of a second behind them.
I've also owned a 6.5 Carcano, and they're not bad rifles. The slowest part of using one (mine, anyway) was loading fresh clips. They tended to be tight, and took a lot of force to seat. Cycling the bolt was pretty fast. Not as good as a smooth Enfield, but far better than a Mosin. Certainly good enough to pull off the Kennedy assassination.
Vern Humphrey
Member
The limo was moving virtually straight away -- which is basically the same as a still target.
One thing I have heard, from Marines, is that the Marines got the worn out rifles that the Army discarded.
I have talked to a number of pre Vietnam marines, and a couple of Army guys from that period.
One gun club gentleman, when he was qualifying, he was handed a Garand that was so worn out, he was able to show the range Officer that you could stick a 30-06 round in the muzzle, bullet first, to the brass. The Range Officer just shook his head and handed the rifle back! Needless to say it would not hold the black at any distance. Other buds have described being handed rifles that were worn out and inaccurate. One gentleman who was on the Divisional rifle team, he stuck match sticks between the sight base and slide, because there was so much wobble between the two.
You could be the Worlds best shot, and if they handed you a worn out rifle, you were not going to shoot a marksman score.
Take a look at Oswalds 500 yard targets. That darn 5V target is tiny, and yet he shot a 41, 43, 44 and a 46. That is not bad with issue ammo and a issue Garand.
My DCM Garand, fresh off the RRAD rebuild line, would not hold the eight ring at 500 yards. With decent ammo.
I am not going to claim he was the world's best, but I have been squadded with people who were a lot worse, with better equipment.
I also have stood under the Texas Book Depository. Now I don't have a scoped Carcano for time trials, but the distances were not far.
It would be a hoot if someone hosted a "Beat Oswald" match. I would bet that a lot of good shooters would clean the target within 8 seconds.
Ohio Gun Guy
Member
As a kid in H.S. (Been a few years ago) when a special aired about it, my brothers and I headed out to the back yard (AKA the Range) and we all could easily make a 100yd (soup can) in well under those times..... I know, not moving, no stress, etc, etc.
I think it could be done.
HOWEVER, as someone born well after these events, I find it interesting that there were so many assassinations during those years that happen to fall close the Government.....(Thinking of JFK, M.L. King, and Bobby Kennedy).....
Probably will never know......just sayin.
I think it could be done.
HOWEVER, as someone born well after these events, I find it interesting that there were so many assassinations during those years that happen to fall close the Government.....(Thinking of JFK, M.L. King, and Bobby Kennedy).....
Probably will never know......just sayin.
Steve Marshall
Member
A Sgt. Snoxall hit a 12" target 38 times in one minute at 200 yards with his Enfield in 1914. That's under 2 seconds a shot. In High Power Rifle competition, you'd be hardpressed NOT to fire 1 shot every 6 seconds. Yes, I could make those shots with a Carcano.
I have done it that fast, and with a Carcano, though it was a nice smooth rifle, not the carbine Oswald used. It is not even very difficult and with an SMLE I can beat the time considerably. Remember even with 7 seconds, the start is at the first shot, so bolt operation and aiming takes c. 3.5 seconds. Latest tests of the Zapruder camera seem to indicate the time might have been as much as 10-11 seconds, making the shot that much easier.
Of course, no objective tests will ever convince the conspiracy theorists, each of whom places the blame according to his own prejudices.
Jim
Of course, no objective tests will ever convince the conspiracy theorists, each of whom places the blame according to his own prejudices.
Jim
Publius1688
Member
The shots he made were within reason, I think. Most of us could probably repeat the results at the range.
Remember the movie "Saving Private Ryan?" The sniper was a southpaw using a right handed rifle. He reached all the way over to cycle the weapon, and did so quite fast. Granted, it was just an actor, but he was cycling that weapon. I've never seen that done in real life.
Although, I read about a left handed shooter who won at Camp Perry (in the 70s?) who cycled his bolt action rifle the same way.
ccsniper
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I fired my SMLE around that fast offhand; good video (though I'd say it was about 10 shots in 10 seconds from the first shot), and thanks for sharing it.
Bolt-actions in a decent caliber aren't much different than the basic self-loading battle rifle for aimed rate of fire, barring magazine capacity. It takes more practice to shoot as quickly, but the time spent helps in other ways too; more shooting equates to more familiarity.
Bolt-actions in a decent caliber aren't much different than the basic self-loading battle rifle for aimed rate of fire, barring magazine capacity. It takes more practice to shoot as quickly, but the time spent helps in other ways too; more shooting equates to more familiarity.
Vern Humphrey
Member
That was in the '30s. The shooter was a member of the Cavalry team, who had been kicked by a mule and lost some sight in his right eye. He retrained himself to shoot lefthanded.
MinnMooney
Member
This is my sentament, also. It could be done but is very unlikely.
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