Could YOU fire a bolt-action that fast?

[Yoda]

It seems the Discovery Channel is airing a series of documentaries about the assasination of JFK. My question for the chorus: Could YOU aim and fire a bolt action rifle that fast? I'm not trying to suggest any sort of conspiracy, but I do wonder how many of us, USMC-trained or not, could work the bolt and re-aim that fast.

- - - Yoda

========================

 

[LubeckTech]

Wasn't the time 6 seconds and the distance 200 yards? Working the action that fast is possible but doing it accurately with a piece of crap scope would be in my opinion the real trick. The thing I find most interesting is that there is documentation surrounding the assination which is still classified and will be for a long time to come.

 

[Kleanbore]

Remember: you start with the chamber loaded.

I once heard Gov. Connally say that he didn't think anyone could fire a bolt action rifle that fast and then he withdrew the question. That was quite some time after I opined that it couldn't be done (was the interval stated in the Warren Report shorter?) not taking into account that point (start ready).

I talked a law student friend into believing that it couldn't be done, and he decided to try for himself. Problem was the noise from his Carcano destroyed the recording device.

I am no longer a skeptic about the mechanics of the tragedy.

 

[herohog]

I saw a documentary which showed it WAS possible with that exact same setup (Same distance, same height, same distance, same speed car same target size) and the guy was able to make the same shots. The guy WAS a pro-shooter and he took several attempts as I recall but it wasn't flat out impossible, just REAL unlikely.

 

[Slamfire]

It seems the Discovery Channel is airing a series of documentaries about the assasination of JFK. My question for the chorus: Could YOU aim and fire a bolt action rifle that fast? I'm not trying to suggest any sort of conspiracy, but I do wonder how many of us, USMC-trained or not, could work the bolt and re-aim that fast.

I don't know. I have never timed myself, but I can work a bolt very fast. I worked the bolt on a M27 Finnish so fast, that my hunting bud thought someone was shooting a semiauto.

Massad Ayoob wrote and article about Oswald. He claimed to find evidence that Oswald was right handed but left eye dominant and shot lefty.

He also presented evidence that Oswald practiced bolt manipulation (in his house dryfiring!) and rapid fire at the range with the Carcano.

If you rested that rifle on a window sill, had your right hand on the bolt and left hand on the trigger, the time between shots would be very small to a practiced shooter.

There is also something called "luck". Sometimes people make impossible shots. By accident.

Wasn't the time 6 seconds and the distance 200 yards?

My Warren report has data scattered all over it. It looks like the distances were 175 feet, 240 and 265 feet. The Limo was traveling at 11.2 MPH. "If the assassin missed either the first or third shot, he had a total of between 4.8 and 5.6 seconds between the two shots which hit and a total minimum time period of from 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for all three shots"

 

[raindog]

For me personally, I don't know. I may try it when I'm at the range, next. I don't own a 6.5mm Carcano, though perhaps a Yugo 24/47 would be similar enough for the test. I do know that many people have duplicated Oswald's shots, and improved upon them.

I do know that Oswald's marksmanship is hardly impressive. The fatal head shot was 88Y at a barely-moving target. With either a 4x scope (which Oswald had) or with iron sights, that's not a tough shot. Oswald was not using surplus ammo - he shot commercial Western Cartridge 160gr FMJ.

He shot three times and only hit his presumed target (Kennedy's head) once. One shot went completely wild and missed the CAR. So three shots in, what, a 12-foot circle? Even discounting the flyer, one in the head and one in the lower neck at 88Y is what, 4 or 5 MOA? I wager that Carcano is capable of better accuracy.

Sure, there's a bit more adrenaline in attempting to assassinate the president than sitting at a bench rest in a gun range on a lazy afternoon, but LHO was trained by the best in the world (the USMC) and he had practically unlimited time to set up his "nest".

FYI, Oswald shot three times in 8.3 seconds, based on the best reconstruction of events. Best guess is that the first shot was a miss, the second was the Kennedy/Connolly hit, and the third was the head shot that killed Kennedy. There is some room for debate on which shot was the miss - it could have been the first or the second, but was most likely the first.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm

BTW, I'm no fan of Kennedy (or his brothers), but he was President, and a genuine war hero who served his country. RIP JFK.

 

[alsaqr]

Could YOU aim and fire a bolt action rifle that fast? I'm not trying to suggest any sort of conspiracy, but I do wonder how many of us, USMC-trained or not, could work the bolt and re-aim that fast.

Some claim that Oswald got off three aimed shots in 5.6 seconds.

Skeptics have argued that expert marksmen could not duplicate Oswald's alleged feat in their first try during re-enactments by the Warren Commission (1964) and CBS (1967). In those tests the marksmen attempted to hit the target three times within 5.6 seconds. This time span has been heavily disputed. The Warren Commission itself estimated that the time span between the two shots that hit President Kennedy was 4.8 to 5.6 seconds. If the second shot missed (assuming the first and third shots hit the president), then 4.8 to 5.6 seconds was the total time span of the shots. If the first or third shot missed, that would give a minimum time of 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for the three shots.[27] Modern analysis of a digitally enhanced Zapruder film suggests that the first, second, and final shot may have taken 8.3 seconds.

No one knows whether Oswald used the scope or not: It is much easier to get off three aimed shots over iron sights than it is with a scope. The scope on that Carcano rifle is pretty chintzy by todays standards. The field of view is narrow: It's hard to pick up a moving target with that scope. Me thinks Oswald used the guns open sights.

One thing for sure, the Carcano is an easy to manipulate and fast firing bolt action rifle in the hands of a good marksman. But not in my hands, i'm left handed.

Have played around with this many times over the past 40+ years. Using any of my left hand scoped rifles, it is rather easy for me to get off three aimed shots in 5.6 seconds and put the bullets into a 4" bullseye at 75 meters. Oswald's longest shot in Dallas was about 80 meters.

The US Army ballistics lab conducted firing tests with the Carcano. From Wikipedia, not a real good source:

In an effort to test the rifle under conditions which simulated those which prevailed during the assassination, the Infantry Weapons Evaluation Branch of the U.S. Army's Ballistics Research Laboratory had expert riflemen fire the assassination weapon from a tower at three silhouette targets at distances of 175, 240, and 265 feet (81 m).[33] Using the assassination rifle mounted with the telescopic sight, three marksmen, rated as master by the National Rifle Association, each fired two series of three shots. In the first series the firers required time spans of 4.6, 6.75, and 8.25 seconds respectively. On the second series they required 5.15, 6.45, and 7 seconds. The marksmen took as much time as they wanted for the first target at 175 feet (53 m), and all hit the target. For the first four attempts, the firers missed the second shot at 240 feet (73 m) by several inches. Five of the six shots hit the third target at 265 feet (81 m), the distance of President Kennedy from the sixth floor window when he was struck in the head.[34] None of the marksmen had any practice with the assassination weapon beforehand except to work the bolt

 

[raindog]

My Warren report has data scattered all over it. It looks like the distances were 175 feet, 240 and 265 feet.

Thanks for looking that up. Oswald missed one of three, with evidence pointing strongly to the first. That first shot was 175 - or 58 yards. And he missed the CAR at that range!

Speculation is that as he tracked the car in his scope, a tree branch suddenly loomed, or he got buck fever. He got back on track and put two in a 5" or so circle at 80Y and 88Y.

It's also possible that he took the first shot with the scope, realized it was misaligned, and switched to iron sights.

 

[-eaux-]

my dad is a retired USMC rifleman, and i have seen him do AMAZING things. headshots on squirrels at 70-100yds with an iron-sighted .22lr single-shot boltgun, etc.
could Oswald have done it alone with the tool he had? yes.
do i think he did? who cares what i think.
(PS: thanks dad for standing on that line! ooo-rah!)

 

[JohnKSa]

The shots have been duplicated on more than one occasion. It does not require extraordinary skill or speed.

As pointed out the final shot which was the hardest shot was taken at under 90 yards and at a target that was moving almost directly away from the shooter--stationary for all practical purposes.

"If the assassin missed either the first or third shot, he had a total of between 4.8 and 5.6 seconds between the two shots which hit and a total minimum time period of from 7.1 to 7.9 seconds for all three shots".

Assume that it's 7.1 seconds (the shorter of the two totals)--that's roughly 3.5 second splits with a bolt rifle using a rest. Not sure why that should be considered daunting.

The timer starts with the first shot. Then you get 3.5 seconds to work the bolt and line up the second shot. Then another 3.5 seconds to work the bolt again and line up for the last shot.

If you work the bolt with your right hand and use the left for the trigger it's even easier.

 

[NMGonzo]

yes

plausible

wasn't oswald a marine at some point?

 

[Rosstradamus]

Testifying before the Warren Commission, FBI expert Sebastian Latona described the Mannlicher-Carcano as a "cheap old weapon." Army expert Ronald Simmons, also testifying before the Commission, said it was not an exceptionally good specimen or one that had been refurbished. When three expert riflemen tested it, he said, "Yes, there were several comments made - particularly with respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt... There was also comment made about the trigger pull..." And the scope was misaligned so the rifle shot high and to the right.

As a native Dallasite, I've been to Dealey Plaza hundreds of times, both in a car going down Elm St. on the motorcade route and on foot. I've stood behind the picket fence above the Grassy Knoll, and I've been to the Sixth Floor Museum. I've also read the Warren Report and about two dozen other books on the assassination. I have my own copy of the Zapruder film which I've watched countless times. I suggest all armchair experts do the same before voicing ill-informed opinions. Maybe you'll conclude it was an easy shot, a piece of cake. Maybe you won't.

 

[Tommygunn]

Gerald Posner wrote a very well researched book titled Case Closed in which he demonstrated Oswald fired the shots in something closer to 10 seconds than the 5.6 seconds the Warren Report claimed. By analyzing the Zapruder film and paying close attention to the involuntary flinches people exhibit in reaction to loud sharp sounds, and knowing how fast the camera Zapruder used (and the running speed is known) we know Oswald had more time than originally thought.

 

[raindog]

Testifying before the Warren Commission, FBI expert Sebastian Latona described the Mannlicher-Carcano as a "cheap old weapon."

No, he didn't. Sebastian Latona was an expert, all right...on fingerprints. He never testified that the Carcano was a "cheap old weapon". You can read his testimony here:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/latona.htm

He testified the finish was poor for purposes of retaining fingerprints. He compared it to a stainless steel revolver in the context of fingerprint retention. Sorry, that's all the fingerprint expert said about the rifle.

Army expert Ronald Simmons, also testifying before the Commission, said it was not an exceptionally good specimen or one that had been refurbished.

Dude, you really need to read! He didn't say anything like that. Simmons said:

Mr Eisenberg: "Do I understand your testimony to be that this rifle is as accurate as current American military rifles?"
Mr Simmons: "Yes. As far as we can determine from bench-rest firing."
Mr Eisenberg: "Would you consider that to be a high degree of accuracy?"
Mr Simmons: "Yes, the weapon is quite accurate."

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh3/pdf/WH3_Simmons.pdf

Now that I review, I see that the Army experts, firing from a bench rest, found the weapon to shoot almost exactly 1MOA at 100Y. Granted, that's from a "mechanical bench rest" and presumably a human shooter would shoot a worse. But still!

When three expert riflemen tested it, he said, "Yes, there were several comments made - particularly with respect to the amount of effort required to open the bolt... And the scope was misaligned so the rifle shot high and to the right.

You forgot to mention: all three shot the rifle scoring hits similar to Oswald's! It's all there in the testimony. Simmons even states that the bolt would probably open easier if one was more familiar with the weapon.

We have no idea if Oswald used the scope or not.

There was also comment made about the trigger pull..."

...that it was a two-stage trigger, like 90%+ of all military bolt action rifles. I own many and they are all two-stage triggers (except the Mosin-Nagant): big, predictable slack, then light second stage.

You haven't read Simmons' testimony and you are completely misportraying it. His testimony overwhelmingly states that Oswald could have taken the shots, the rifle was fine, and they reproduced his shots easily.

I suggest all armchair experts do the same before voicing ill-informed opinions.

Indeed!

The Carcano is a fair bolt-action rifle that was used to take some non-challenging shots by a competent shooter. Considering it started loaded, cycling the action twice in 8.3 seconds is not that hard.

 

[JohnKSa]

As a native Dallasite, I've been to Dealey Plaza hundreds of times, both in a car going down Elm St. on the motorcade route and on foot. I've stood behind the picket fence above the Grassy Knoll, and I've been to the Sixth Floor Museum. I've also read the Warren Report and about two dozen other books on the assassination. I have my own copy of the Zapruder film which I've watched countless times. I suggest all armchair experts do the same before voicing ill-informed opinions. Maybe you'll conclude it was an easy shot, a piece of cake. Maybe you won't.

Been to Dealey plaza as I've lived in the DFW area for around 30 years. I've stood at the window next to the one from which Oswald made the shots and looked at the marks on the pavement showing the vehicle position. I've read 40-50 books on the topic (still own more than 30) and watched every documentary on the topic that I have been able to find. I have a copy of the Zapruder film that I've pored over.

My impression from standing at the 6th floor window is that the shots were not hard and that the range was shorter than I expected.

I started out wanting to believe the conspiracy theories but the more I studied the more I was forced to the conclusion that all of the best "evidence" for the conspiracy theories was either traceable to allegations and assertions made by complete nuts, couldn't be traced to any source at all, and/or was demonstrably false/fabricated/misquoted/inaccurate. I remember the point at which I had finally compiled and read enough material and followed up on enough cites and referenced sources that things suddenly began to unravel. It was actually very disappointing in one way.

 

[armedandsafe]

I don't know about the 5.6 seconds nor the 10.1 seconds. I do know that I shot against a First Sergeant who was using an M1 Garand. He and I shot from sitting, 100 yards, 8" bull. He fired 8 rounds for score and I fired 8 rounds for score. I finished just before he did and beat him by 1 point. I was using an 03A3, Redfield peep rear sight, Redfield hooded front sight. I had to reload my last two rounds by hand.

The Camp Perry competitor 1st Sgt was not pleased, but he did ask when I was going to join his National Guard outfit.

Pops

 

[HuntAndFish]

Could YOU aim and fire a bolt action rifle that fast?

Starting locked and loaded and firing 3 shots in 6 seconds at roughly 85 yards and hitting a 6" diameter circle? Yeah, I can. Any competent shooter could.

ETA: And only having to hit it twice. Even easier.

 

[JohnKSa]

ETA: And only having to hit it twice. Even easier.

Easier than that. The first shot wasn't a head shot, it hit in the upper back.

 

[Oro]

If you work the bolt with your right hand and use the left for the trigger it's even easier.

I believe that is what Oswald did. I recall reading that witnesses observed him practicing and noted this posture - I *think* he was left handed so it came more naturally to him. FBI and police interviews at the time with neighbors, acquaintances and with Marina (his wife), had a well-corroborated story of regular practice both live and dry firing, and with that described position. He owned the rifle for seven or eight months before the assassination and had time to practice.

I believe objective analysis of the evidence shows that he had the requisite skill, training, and weapon to make those shots without needing to be "lucky."

 

[armoredman]

Hmm, I thought it was longer range than that, will find a B-27 and try it with the Enfield, body shot first shot, head shot second shot? Hmm.

 

[cleardiddion]

Just for fun a while back (when ammo was a lot cheaper) me and my friends did some speed competitions with a buch of rifles.
1 min...as many rounds as you could fire at a target 100yds, aimed.
I've managed to get off 20rds from my Mosin Nagant 91/30 from a handful of loose rounds and 32 rounds in a minute from my Lee Enfield No4 Mk1.

Maybe it's just me but I think that's a fair rate of fire for a couple of old bolties.

 

[General Geoff]

Starting locked and loaded and firing 3 shots in 6 seconds at roughly 85 yards and hitting a 6" diameter circle? Yeah, I can. Any competent shooter could.

ETA: And only having to hit it twice. Even easier.

It was also a moving target. I'd say that requires a highly skilled rifleman, not just a "competent shooter."

 

[garymc]

I went to the museum and looked out the window they were letting people use. I was surprised how easy the shot would have been. When I was there you couldn't go to the actual window, but it was the one a floor below or above (it was a while back and I don't remember which.) Anyhow it looked easy to me.

 

[RP88]

if you figure an average of about 2-3 seconds between shots maximum, it is very possible. He was pretty much just shooting at Kennedy's shape while moving pretty much directly Northbound away from him at the speed of a jogger and was hoping for a hit, from how it all sounds. Put a rest into the equation, and his training, and I would dare ask why he needed more than two shots.

 

[swiftak]

I'm pretty sure the Marine Corps were not using a bolt action when Oswald went thru boot camp so I think that throws that theory out the window. I still don't believe in the lone gunman anyway.