Crazy ATF visit.

[HankB]

The (very) few times I've had police knock on my door, it was for something innocuous, such as inquiring as to whether or not I knew the whereabouts of the owner of a car parked on the street, or whose dog was barking (?) . . . in each case, the officers were courteous, and I was courteous in return. The contacts concluded with words to the effect of "Thank you, and have a nice day."

That's what one expects of public servants.

I've had people slam my arms and legs shut in doors, been stabbed, etc.

As long as you were in uniform and presented the home's occupants with a valid warrant, the people who did that to you were clearly in the wrong, and I trust the courts subsequently agreed. (I'm assuming you didn't try to enter without presentation of a valid warrant or clearly established probable cause?)

 

[ceetee]

Regarding "treating people like crap" being equated with "just doing their job"...

Everybody knows that you get more flies with honey than vinegar. Yes, they could have (perhaps should have) verified the correct owner of the house before paying a visit. If they had been well-mannered, they could have both gotten better cooperation, and left a better impression of how they conduct their affairs. If they treat everyone they interact with as a criminal, then everyone they deal with will treat them with less respect. That's just how it goes.

That said, I'm sure its never happened before that they knock on the correct door, and are met by the woman of the house who says "No... I've never heard of John Q. Public" while John Public attempts a hasty exit out the back...

 

[fastbolt]

Sloppy investigative work? Hmmm ...

It's not exactly unknown for actual bad guys/girls to use the cover of someone else when it comes to their actual or supposed residence(s). I've had many instances where someone was known to have stayed ... or was still staying ... even though the house was presently in someone else's name, either as a deed, rental, or lease. It doesn't have to be a family member or one of the current/past 'significant others', either.

I've also encountered many instances where the subject I wanted to talk to no longer stayed there ... or had never actually stayed there ... and then I've had a lot of folks lie to me, too.

I had a very sweet and polite elderly lady lie to my face about her grandson not being in her house, while he was jumping out the back window, as it turned out. She had the good grace to look a bit abashed when I pointed out the lit cigarette in the ashtray of his obvious room (obvious, meaning not hers ), and the open window with disarrayed curtains. Her appearance and manner might've made some folks think that she was incapable of telling an untruth ...

I've also encountered all kinds of interesting situations at the threshold, too. You just never know what you'll encounter.

The last one that surprised me was when a stark naked, fully shaved (head-to-toe), angry, screaming young woman holding the leash of a large snarling, barking dog, straining at the leash, yanked open the front door and started yelling at me ... thinking I was someone else, as it turned out. I was still polite, but the dog was a potential concern ... as I clearly pointed out to her. You can imagine my concern that she might attempt to recover her modesty with her hands, releasing the leash of the dog doing its best to try and reach me. Once she actually took the moment needed to SEE my badge & ID card, and figured out what it meant ... she put the dog away and grabbed a blanket. She was actually a very polite and well-mannered young lady, somewhat embarrassed for her initial behavior, and was helpful in pointing out to me where the subject for whom I was looking lived around out back.

It's just my personal opinion, mind you ... but professionalism and courtesy can certainly go hand-in-hand ... although officer safety awareness and reasonable, prudent precautions may not always be recognized for what they are by members of the non-LE public who lead normal, law-abiding lives ...

 

[648E]

If you guys simply can't get it through your heads that there are jobs out there a bit more dangerous than yours...

Statistically speaking, no there isn't.

 

[t49si83]

Yup, bad intel. It happens. Sounds like they were doing their jobs.

American government has turned into the sloppy intel capitol of the planet. People allow their government to shoot first, abuse first, invade first, and then ask few questions later.

The mantra of the government loyalist (from 1930's Germany to today): "They're just doin' their jobs," "We were just following orders."

If it's holding a clipboard don't answer the door. If it's in uniform and you didn't ask for it, don't answer the door. If there is a gray area with this, buy one of the many low cost wireless innercoms so you can talk to it without opening your door to abuse/harassment. Is that paranoid? The RICH put innercoms by their iron gates, but I guess WE aren't worthy of such protection because simply it would be "weird."

 

[wingnutx]

Barbara: just make sure you are wearing your burkha when you answer the door.

Those should be great for concealed carry

 

[carebear]

Barbara ~

Then it would be either your brother, if you have one, or your oldest son, provided he is old enough to dress himself.

pax

Don't forget uncles, pax. They're senior to male children IIRC.

fastbolt,

True it might be a scam. But they were looking for a guy who had had the house in his own name months prior, if I'm reading correctly. Going to the trouble of selling it so he could hide for months in a house he used to be in title to would be kinda stupid. Not that that ever stopped a criminal.

The point is that LE shouldn't have ever gone to the door without first doing the work to know that the house had been sold. Given the length of time it had been sold, they should have reevaluated the accuracy of their "last known address" before deciding to go hard on the current occupants. Barring more current info he was still there, "Officer Friendly" was the only realistic and professional way to deal with the poster's wife.

 

[DRMMR02]

Who is to say what the LEO's in question did or did not know? Just because a cop asks you a question, doesn't mean he doesn't already know the answer. Asking questions a gaging responses is a big part of their job. Maybe they were just seeing if you were telling the truth.

All I am saying is that you can't really get assume you know all about what intel they did or did not have just by the questions they asked.

 

[carebear]

All I am saying is that you can't really get assume you know all about what intel they did or did not have just by the questions they asked.

I think we were trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, for being lazy instead of evil.

Going in with the (alleged) attitude they were reported as having would be completely inexcusable if they actually knew that their "last known address" was a property that had been sold by the suspect months before.

By being aggressive and distrustful their attitude was explicitly one of accusing the new owners of being liars and somehow complicit in malfeasance. Assuming guilt, not innocence.

I'd rather they be lazy.

 

[t49si83]

Since I'm not married, am I allowed to decide who I open the door for or do I need to have a guardian appointed to make those decisions for me? You read the silliest stuff here, I swear.

Militant women's "lib" 101: make every subject about how "independent" you are/need to be.

 

[Correia]

t49si83, in her defense, she didn't start it. Other posters talked about how they don't "allow" their wives to answer the door.

 

[American By Blood]

Last time I had the ATF at my door was sometime in the Spring of 2000. It was mid-morning and Agent Schmuckatelli was accompanied by his counterpart from the FBI.

I answered the door in my boxers and a Slayer t-shirt.

They wanted to speak to either me or my roommate regarding recent ecotage in the area.

I told them they couldn't come in, that I wasn't sure where my roommate was at the time, and the best they were going to get for their time was leaving a business card.

They asked me a few questions obviously chosen to show me that they had some intel on me. No big deal. I gave them a series of "I can't recall"s.

After a couple minutes of that a female voice came from my bedroom saying "Baby, come back to bed..."

I winked at the agents, told them to have a nice day, and shut the door on them.

That was the third time they came sniffing around at that apartment and I never saw them again. They had no grounds for a warrant and probably realized that not being allowed across the threshold + "I can't recall" = waste of time.

 

[fedaykincmndr]

Having been in the Marine Corps and working closely with local LEO's since my leaving the Marine Corps, I'll add this...

Being in civilian security I've been accused of being 'mean.' I had just gotten out of the Marine Corps (still have a hard time with that) and didn't know that I always had some sort of magical "I'm gonna kill you look" but apparently I did. I'll say this, you get in the habit of being aggressive and putting your @$$ on the line, you don't care what people think or how they feel. I can be as courteous to you as need be all day long, call you sir or ma'am, etc., but still have the mentality (and sometimes the look) that you're gonna try to hurt me and I'm gonna hurt you worse. Plain and simple, these guys risk their necks every day for our safety. What is with the mentality that the Government is out to get you?

I had an officer come to my door when I lived in the ghetto lookin for a fella. He showed me the picture and asked if he was there. I said No sir to all of his questions and then he asked if he looked would he find him. I said no sir but you're welcome to look. He said no that's ok lemme know if you see him, and left. I cooperated because I knew he was doing his job, and he was all tac-ed out and everything. Was I scared? You bet, I thought I had done something wrong.

Officers and agents can't always be polite and I'll tell you from experience it's hard going from everyone's trying to kill me to hello Mrs. Smith how are you. Don't judge them, cooperate, and if you've nothing to hide then don't be an @$$ to them. They're doing their job!

 

[gwalchmai]

What is with the mentality that the Government is out to get you?... Don't judge them, cooperate, and if you've nothing to hide then don't be an @$$ to them. They're doing their job!

 

[c_yeager]

Unless they're serving a warrant, no reason for them to be "not very nice," no matter what the circumstances.

My bank teller was kinda rude to me yesterday. Should I start talking to a lawyer?


As far as the whole "sloppy intel" thing goes, its pretty laughable. Knocking on the damn door and talking to the occupants *is* intel, thats how you get information. Thats what they are *supposed* to do before they bring out the battering ram and start stomping on puppies. I wish more agencies would try the "lets just knock on the door and chat with them" approach.

 

[Sindawe]

If you guys simply can't get it through your heads that there are jobs out there a bit more dangerous than yours and perhaps require a certain level of paranoia for survival, then you can always live on Easter Island with the statues...

You mean like cutting timber, commercial fishing, structural metal working and farming?

Sorry OS, as of 2002, police work don't even show up on the list of the 10 most dangerous jobs. http://moneycentral.msn.com/content/invest/extra/P63405.asp

LEOs of all stripes with an attitude does nothing to encourage warm feelings toward them from other citizens.

 

[Koobuh]

"Its funny, even before I was an LEO, I never thought any visit by LEOs was anything less than nice. Perhaps I was raised to know they are doing their job and to treat them with the respect I'd want in return."

How's that boot leather tasting?

WE PAY THESE GUYS. THEY WORK FOR US.

They have a filial obligation to us, not the other way around. If we forget that and allow this sort of garbage to continue, we'll get exactly what we deserve.

I don't care HOW hard police and law enforcement's job is, frankly, because they are being paid to interpose their warm body between danger and the public. The difficulty of your job does not give you license to be inexcusibly rude to the people you work for.


"I'll tell you from experience it's hard going from everyone's trying to kill me to hello Mrs. Smith how are you."

That's nice. In my job I have to go from 'Oh God the whole building's games network has crashed!' and 'Why Yes Ma'am You're an Indian and Deserve Respect While I as a Filthy White Man Shall Gladly Accept your Glowers and Snotty Demeanor' to 'Hi! How can I help you today, Sir?' in .5 seconds. I don't buy that it's hard, it's just training and a desire not to be fired on the spot.

 

[DRMMR02]

Do we even know if they were actually being rude?

Or were they simply acting in a no-nonsense manner that is routinely mistaken for rudeness by civilians who don't really know much about law enforcement?

 

[Deanimator]

My bank teller was kinda rude to me yesterday. Should I start talking to a lawyer?

It depends.

Did she threaten you?

Was she armed?

If an armed bank teller threatened me, I'd certainly talk to my lawyer about it.

 

[gwalchmai]

Do we even know if they were actually being rude?

Or were they simply acting in a no-nonsense manner that is routinely mistaken for rudeness by civilians who don't really know much about law enforcement?

That's a good point. Considering that every LEO has spent a significant portion of his life as a civilian, and hasten to remind us that only LEOs understand what LEOs lives and jobs are like, who do you think is in the better position to modify their behavior to lessen the chances of a bad encounter?

 

[Deanimator]

Officers and agents can't always be polite and I'll tell you from experience it's hard going from everyone's trying to kill me to hello Mrs. Smith how are you. Don't judge them, cooperate, and if you've nothing to hide then don't be an @$$ to them. They're doing their job!

I understand completely. Similarly, I can't always not file official complaints with a lot of followup with their chain of command, politicians and the media.

Here are a few things to remember about me:

I hate bullies.

I hold grudges.

I have utterly no sense of proportion.

I'm thinking being polite to me is the wiser course of action...

 

[larry_minn]

Nope I wouldn't call lawyer on rude bank clerk (or LEO unless he/she used force) But I would call bank president/ Cheif of Police/Sheriff IF it was bad enough.
Had ATF out here yrs ago. They started with bad additude but it changed fairly quickly. Same for people. Let them know if they want to swear/act big there is the road. USE IT or get polite. Most get (slightly) polite.

 

[Zundfolge]

Don't judge them, cooperate, and if you've nothing to hide then don't be an @$$ to them.

THAT ATTITUDE is EXACTLY why so many of us here have a distrust/dislike/disrespect for LEOs.

They can be an @$$ to any of us for no reason yet we're supposed to "respect" them ... BOLLOCKS!

I'm not your serf, I'm not your b**ch and YOU'RE AN EFFING "CIVILIAN" TOO so don't give me that crap.


Too often those with badges think its their right to bully the sheep and get all bent out of shape when one of us DARES to suggest that they are OUR EMPLOYEES and that "Protect and Serve" should mean something.



There is no reason why LEOs can not behave in a professional and polite manner ... and I can certainly understand that there are times when politeness must be set aside, but it seems like there are just too damn many of you cops that think ANY time is a good time to set aside a polite demeanor.

 

[Optical Serenity]

I never said that it is ok to be rude, don't overly read into what I'm saying. First of all, we are just assuming here that the LEOs were rude to this person's wife, kids, dogs, etc... Who knows? We weren't there...I'm not saying be rude, I'm saying be understanding, and follow the golden rule. Just treat them the way you want to be treated.

Yes, LEOs work for you, for me, for everyone, etc etc...Sure, we all work for someone. I don't care if you are in public or private work, at some point you do. The last thing you want to hear is "I'll have your job jerk" or "I pay your salary."

I honestly believe that so many here are just folks with a strange bad attitude towards life. Take it easy folks. Take off the tin foil hats, and go about your life. If you don't like laws, ask your politicians who are actually in charge of laws to change them...Don't take it out on the guys getting paid a pittance to put their "warm bodies" between danger and the public.

The best and safest communities out there are the ones where the the public support their law enforcement and vice versa.

Maybe Georgia is just a very good place and our laws are better. Or Perhaps, maybe...well, no...I've travelled a lot, and I'm not running into the evil officers you all refer too. I find people on the internet are just extremely negative sometimes...and sometimes, its for no good reason.

 

[Deanimator]

Just treat them the way you want to be treated.

I treat EVERYBODY the way I want to be treated... at first.

I'm an adaptable fellow. If that doesn't work, I treat people in a manner commensurate with the way they treat me. Sometimes that makes them sad. Their choice...