Disney World to test metal detectors

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If you carry a concealed weapon or have a weapon for defence, you at one time worried about something happening and prepared for it. I have no problem with that.

I don't like the fact that Disney doesn't post that guns are a "no, no" in the park. If they are going to have that rule it should be posted.

But my point really is three fold:

1. Disney can make the rules, it's their park you are the guest. This doesn't strike me as unfair or unreasonable. And even if I am law abiding that doesn't give me the right to do what I want, wherever I want. If I go to a friends house and he says, "hey, friend no smoking please." I will abide or leave.

2. If you cannot go unarmed someplace for a short period of time you should not go there. Hey, for your own peace of mind, at least, stay home you'll be safer or go somewhere where you can be armed.

3. Take short sprints of risk. Odds are basicly on you side. If you really thought so much about real daily dangers you face on any given day you might never get in a car. I (maybe not yourself) would feel reasonablly secure if I had to go unarmed at Disney World. Maybe this seems reckless to some here. Maybe I'm brave...well I don't know about that. Maybe, I just haven't been mugged yet.

I own many guns all for protection except for two. I beleive whole heartedly in the right for CCL and RKBA. But I wouldn't feel naked if I was force to go unarmed in Disney World. I'm just not that afraid I guess.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind, I'm only trying to share my point of view (which may be wrong to you). If no weapons allowed in the park is a deal breaker for you, well don't go, boycott, write letters, go get 'em.
 
Disney can make the rules, it's their park you are the guest. This doesn't strike me as unfair or unreasonable. And even if I am law abiding that doesn't give me the right to do what I want, wherever I want. If I go to a friends house and he says, "hey, friend no smoking please." I will abide or leave.
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Disney World is private property.

If the company wants to have rules that say "No Blacks," or "No Jews," or "No Republicans," or "No one over 55 years old," they have the right to do that, too.

If the blacks (or Jews, etc...) don't like it, they can boycott business that have those types of rules.
 
I admire your psychic ability...................

GugloGuglo said:
"If you carry a concealed weapon or have a weapon for defence, you at one time worried about something happening and prepared for it. I have no problem with that.

2. If you cannot go unarmed someplace for a short period of time you should not go there. Hey, for your own peace of mind, at least, stay home you'll be safer or go somewhere where you can be armed.

3. Take short sprints of risk. Odds are basicly on you side. If you really thought so much about real daily dangers you face on any given day you might never get in a car. I (maybe not yourself) would feel reasonablly secure if I had to go unarmed at Disney World. Maybe this seems reckless to some here. Maybe I'm brave...well I don't know about that. Maybe, I just haven't been mugged yet.
"

It appears you can predict exactly when and where trouble will happen - I imagine you must be good w/ the lottery too............

I, unfortunately, do not have those skills. I did not predict that a young woman would be assaulted 2 blocks from my home( a NICE small town w/ little to no crime issues).
Nor did I envision in advance the stray dogs that recently charged my children and I at the park playground ( pepper spray worked there - but had my Sig ready too)

If you like, go to http://www.kidon.com/media-link/index.shtml , reference the local Orlando area news and read the police reports re the number of assaults and robberies that occur in the Disney lots and areas in the vicinity.
 
gulogulo1970, what if they used metal detectors to find individuals with false legs and arms, and didn't allow them in because they felt it was bad for their image to have such people in their park? Would that be ok with you? After all, it is their "private property," isn't it? What you have on your person, out of view, however, ought to be no one's concern, so long as it is legal. If a place is open to the general public (this is legally very different from a private residence), that includes people with a legal CCW as part of the general public, just like it includes blacks, Presbyterians, the elderly and the handicapped. That should be the law, in my opinion.

Exercising your right to be armed with a CCW does not in any way interfere with anyone elses rights. If you're private property is open to the general public for business, You should not be able legally to discriminate against those who choose to carry legally concealed for self-defense. If they want to use metal detectors, and then when they discover the CCW they ask to see your Concealed Weapon Permit, that's perfectly fine with me. That is a correct balance, in my opinion, between their property rights as a business open to the general public and my individual right to be legally armed for self-defense.
 
gulogulo,

Ok...maybe you didn't read my post or something because you are arguing several points that I didn't make.

Really I just asked two main questions.

You originally said:

You know, it really doesn't seem like that bad an idea, to me, for theme parks to ban guns if they want to.
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And I said:

Why should theme parks ban law-abiding concealed carry? Why do you think that's a good idea?
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Ok to be fair though...you didn't say "it's a good idea" but why do you think it's not a bad idea? I'm just curious... I never denied that Disney has the right to do that if they want. They do indeed. But why would anyone who supports RKBA think that people banning our RKBA in their establishment is not "that bad an idea"? I just don't understand that part. This has nothing to do with worry or being afraid and much to do with our insistence on carrying out our 2nd ammendment rights on a daily basis. I don't put my pistol on every day as an afterthought because I think of things that might happen and get frightened. I just put it on. When I originally decided to start carrying concealed it wasn't out of feelings of fear but of rational thinking. I've been into shooting all of my life and decided to start carrying a gun after I got married because it was no longer just my life at stake if something bad happened and I realized that there might be situations when I might need a more extreme measure in defending my wife's life. I didn't think "OMG, I'm scared! I must carry a gun!"

Honestly I think your continual statements about us being worried and afraid are somewhat insulting and counterproductive. It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with rational, logical thought and a desire to carry out a constitutional decision I've made without impedement.

In summation:

I agree with your point number 1. That is true. Disney has that right but I feel they are irrational in doing so. They are the ones that are showing the sensationalist fear by making all guests walk through metal detectors.

Point number 2 is irrelevant to the discussion. I regularly go places without my gun and in fact I work at a school so I never carry to work but I do carry most other places. However I wouldn't feel scared if I could not carry in certain places, just inconenienced and perhaps annoyed.

Point number 3...well that's not really a point but thanks for the advice. Honestly if my family really wanted to go to Disney World I don't think that the metal detectors would keep us out and I've never said anything to that effect.

It seems like you are stereotyping all of us who carry and that you do not understand our mindset. That's fine but just know that, while you are entitled to your own opinion, your conclusions about me and probably others are incorrect period.

brad cook
 
This has nothing to do with worry or being afraid and much to do with our insistence on carrying out our 2nd ammendment rights on a daily basis. I don't put my pistol on every day as an afterthought because I think of things that might happen and get frightened. I just put it on.
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Exactly right. His suggestions to the contrary are ignorant and insulting. :fire:
 
My Thinking

To paraphrase CRSam: "One never knows the where or when of next encounter".

Yes Disney has the right to not allow firearms, just as a private home. business.

Since concerns of Terrorism was brought up, I can think of no better place to instill fear and squash the feel good of safety than a Amusement Park. A place where one is to have fun, feel safe, and forget about the nasty realities of life.

Then one does have to drive to the Amusement Park, walk the large parking lot or take a shuttle, return the same way and drive home.

So again we have the responsible person with a CCW, whom passed background checks, training and such at risk - vulnerable . If Bad guys know this and disregard the law everyday using to their advantage to commit crimes - well terrorist for sure are going to disregard.

Granted the likelyhood of getting assaulted standing next to a costumed character is slim, what about the wife and daughter in the restroom? We have sick puppies everywhere - even in Amusement Parks. What about to and from the front entrance - BGs know you cannot carry, pretty good chance you have monies and credit cards - dang that teenage daughter of yours is a hottie in them shorts and T shirt!!

Vehicle trouble on the way home? Maybe on purpose? Tired, hungry, broke not paying attention BG follows you out of parking lot...Still thinking about the hottie for a teenager your daughter is. No biggie for a slow leak to be arranged on a tire and just follow you a bit.

This is where I get pissed. If I were going to instill fear and terror, Amusement Parks, Athletic events, Malls, Large Places of Worship, and Wal-Mart ( symbol of evil greedy shopping Americans), College Campuses...

See if the BGs know they can follow that hottie from a College Campus , A campus that does not allow firearms, well easy prey. Granted while in the classroom the pretty slim chance of something happening. She does have to get to and fro. What about the part time job she works and does not leave until 11 pm, has a drive home and car trouble occurs?

Paranoid - Nope! Just being situational aware. BGs and terrorists do not give laws and "what is right and wrong" a second thought. They do use them to their advantage tho.

If one goes to the mailbox at the same time everday , walks the dog at the same time everyday, well some folks do take notice. Folks don't always set the alarm ( if they have one) , perfect time to sneak and be waiting for the occupant to return.

I'm not as concerned where I currently live of being broken into while home. It is the entering and leaving.

Some stuff just keeps an honest man honest. BGs and terrorists ain't wired that way.
 
gulogulo1970,

You live in a nice fantasy world. I hope you are comfortable there. The only time I was a victim of an armed robbery was when I was in a friend's home. This was in a nice, surburban area. Crackheads came in with one of my friend's neighbors, (whom my buddy always had a good repertoire with -- it turns out that the neighbor owed the crackheads some money and they said that he had to set up people to rob or they'd off him) racked a 40 caliber glock and made us empty all our pockets. They took everything, and then ran off. I was just hanging out in my friend's house..

I feel lucky to be alive. He could have just shot us all after we cooperated. The guy was obviously messed up. If someone tried to pull that on me now they'd get a .45 in the head and 2 in the chest instead of my wallet.

Even in boy scouts they teach you "be prepared". If a business wishes to make me dangerously vulnerable to senseless acts of violence, I won't be going there anymore.

Asking someone to not smoke in their house is completely different from telling them to come unarmed. Smoking is hazardous to one's health and it leaves a filthy stinking residue all over the place. Having my 1911 in my IWB hurts no one and nothing, and has the added bonus of being able to prevent my death and the death of those around me. Telling me that I can't wear it is a bunch of liberal, socialist, utopian nonsense.
 
Chip, great points. Here's what I hope happens with this. I hope someone keeps careful records of the number of muggings, rapes, assaults, murders that happen in and around Disney, and then compares that number to one year after the new policy is implemented. Then, based on that, someone with a CWP (who was forced to go unarmed), who is victimized after the new policy, uses those stats to sue the pants of Mickey. Maybe that kind of suit will become a trend, and then Mickey will drop the policy.
 
No, all I am saying is I am ready to take that death defying risk of going unarmed into Disney World [gasp]. I would not lose any sleep over this.

So, is everyone that does not have a CWL (that could legally have one, mind you) living in a fantasy world? You can be situationally aware and not be armed. I don't live in condition white in the least.

If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed. You have no right, zero right, to do what you please on others property if they don't want you to. Property rights are just as important to a free people as the right to free speech or the right for self protection. Where rights clash one has to give way. And in my mind the right to make the rules on my property supercedes your right to want to be armed on my property.

DigMe: I think a place meant mostly for children could be a gun free area without much of a problem in my mind. I think of the throngs of people and the rides for instance and weapon retention comes to my mind. Pick pockets are the most common form of crime in theme parks. A gun skittering across the asphalt between my kids legs in Disney World is something I could do without. I don't fear CCL holders at Disney world. Its the 16-17 year old gang member punks with a gun in Diseney World I worry about. I just don't have a solution on how you check to keep gang members unarmed out without metal detectors. Any ideas yourself? BTW I'm not trying to accuse anyone of cowardice for carrying.

The Real Hawkeye: What you suggest will be the down fall of concealed carry business bans. If a business will not let you go armed, they at that point are responsible for your safety(not that we aren't responsible for our own safety, ever really) legally. If they fail in this charge, they should be sued. When a enough large businesses are brought to their knees over wrongful death lawsuits they probably will change their tune.

I'm trying really hard not to offend anyone with my views. So far I don't find any of the comments about my veiws to be insulting or out of line. You don't know how weird it is for me to be on the liberal side of any argument. This is not the place I'm used to being on. You guys are making me feel unclean.
 
I went thru the bag search a few weeks ago and was able to outsmart the "security" and enter the park with my fannypack unmolested.
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i wouldnt doubt that at all. the bag checks they have right now are the definition of false security. you think they would be able to find something better for senior rentacops to do.

i couldnt imagine how long the wait would be to get inside if they added metal detectors. i think disney has been going downhill since they got rid of mr. toad's wild ride.
 
If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed. You have no right, zero right, to do what you please on others property if they don't want you to. Property rights are just as important to a free people as the right to free speech or the right for self protection. Where rights clash one has to give way. And in my mind the right to make the rules on my property supercedes your right to want to be armed on my property.
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Listen, we as a society have apparantly decided that, while you may keep anyone you like off of your non-commercial property, you do not, as a business owner, have an absolute right to hold your business open to the general public while simultaneously discriminating against, for example, the handicapped. If a man wishes to enter your store in a wheel chair, you are free to either close shop to everyone, or allow him in with his wheelchair, even if you don't personally like wheelchairs. I am not saying that this is good or bad, but it is what we have collectively decided as a society regarding businesses open to the public. This is not the same as a private residence. Once you open up for the general public, there are limits to how you may discriminate. You may discriminate based on dress codes and conduct (for example), but you may not discriminate against the handicapped. In the same way, I see no great violation of property rights by passing a law requiring businesses which are open to the general public not to discriminate against those who carry concealed legally.

I just don't have a solution on how you check to keep gang members unarmed out without metal detectors. Any ideas yourself?
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Like I said before, metal detectors used to keep illegally armed people out is ok with me. Once you show your CWP, however, they should just let you go your way. I would like to see legislation to this effect regarding business open to the general public. Otherwise the permit is really not all that valuable. You'd be free to carry it in the streets and in your home. What good is that?
 
gulogulo1970,

I live in Florida and know some people that work at various different theme parks. There are a suprising number of muggings, burglaries, etc that go on in the Disney parking lots at after dark. I would not go there without my CCW piece.

As to refusing access to people based on their posession of a gun. I disagree with it on principle and for practical reasons as well. Requiring people to be disarmed in their park (which is open to the public) they are in effect disarming you for your trip to and from your car and/or hotel. If they want to disarm people they are taking responsibility for their safety and as such they need to offer armed escorts to and from your vehicle and/or hotel. If they are not prepared for that responsibility then they should back off and leave law abiding citizens alone. I am of the opinion that each individual has rights over their property and self...those rights end where they begin to infringe upon another persons rights. Disarming the populace is a large infringement in that it leaves them defenseless to the criminal element and potentially puts them in danger of injury and/or death. So from a freedom/rights stand point I don't agree with their ability to refuse me my right to defend myself.
 
Lone_Gunman: You mean that software-company Microsoft that was harrassed by the Klintonians because they refused to donate to the Democratic Party?
 
No, all I am saying is I am ready to take that death defying risk of going unarmed into Disney World [gasp]. I would not lose any sleep over this.
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I think most of us here have made it clear that we agree with that too. Those that wouldn't go to Disney World have also made it clear that it's not out of fear that they have made that decision. I don't see why you keep bringing that up and confusing ethical decisions with fear and paranoia.

If someone came onto your property and told you what you could or couldn't do on your own property. I would bet most of you would get pissed.
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Yes, we would. No one is saying otherwise. So far no one here has claimed to tell Disney what they can and cannot do. We're free to discuss their decision all we want though and make our decisions about whether we will or won't partake of Disney's offerings and whether or not it's a good idea. Please stick to the actual discussion.

I think a place meant mostly for children could be a gun free area without much of a problem in my mind. I think of the throngs of people and the rides for instance and weapon retention comes to my mind. Pick pockets are the most common form of crime in theme parks. A gun skittering across the asphalt between my kids legs in Disney World is something I could do without.
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See there is where my problem is. I'm just surprised to see someone on this gun board propagating the belief that lawful concealed carry is dangerous. That's just the kind of thinking that the anti's want us to partake in and we cannot start believing it. If a pickpocket starts to take my gun out of my waistband I'm definitely going to know it. Pickpockets are a risk anywhere you go though so it shouldn't be an argument specific to Disney World. Retention and pick pockets are no more issues in Disney World than anywhere else. We can't give into the hysteria that the anti's always inevitably attempt to create when a new state brings up concealed carry legislation...it's the same idea here "What if someone's gun falls out and goes off and kills all the children?!" Yeah...that's not the same thing you said, just a more extreme version of it.

I don't fear CCL holders at Disney world. Its the 16-17 year old gang member punks with a gun in Disney World I worry about. I just don't have a solution on how you check to keep gang members unarmed out without metal detectors.
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Wait...now you're worried? I thought it was us that was worried. Great!! Now we're all worried! :evil:

What the real hawkeye said is a perfectly reasonable solution, however, I just know that Disney is NOT going to put up metal detectors and then allow CHL holders in. Most people that know their fairly recent liberal history would agree.

I'm trying really hard not to offend anyone with my views. So far I don't find any of the comments about my veiws to be insulting or out of line.
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Hey man, let me be the first to say thanks for chiming in. Where would the world be without thoughtful discourse? However, let's keep it thoughtful and stick to the discussion. The only thing I was mildly offended by was not your opinion (As is probably the case with most of us - I honestly value your opinion and I value the free debate that we may have on it) but your twisting (or maybe it was just misunderstanding) of our reasons for disagreeing with Disney's decision as well as our reasons for carrying a firearm. To call or even imply that someone carries simply because he or she is scared or paranoid is an affront on one fo the deepest levels because we are simply exercising our constitutional rights and believe strongly in those rights. Maybe some DO carry and are scared or paranoid...maybe they have a reason to be scared...however for most of us I'd have to say that's just not the case and displays a severe misunderstanding of the issues that we are dealing with in the struggle for the RKBA. Personally I think these discussions are fun and thought provoking and sometimes I learn new things. At the very least you can know for sure that there is at least one person who isn't at all offended by your opinions and respects your right to have them (just respect my right to try and change them!! j/k :neener: ). This probably goes for most people here but I can only express my feelings with certainty.

brad cook
 
I think we can all agree that the Disney Corporation is well within their rights to enact this new practice of scanning visitors to its park. We can also agree that the grounds of Walt Disney World are no more dangerous than the average college campus, a place where guns are characteristically forbidden.

Asserting here that Disney is unwise in its decision is perfectly acceptable, but don't pretend that some new high of authoritarian oppression is being reached here. In fact, that article doesn't say anything at all about forbidding the legal carry of firearms by licensed citizens. Perhaps they'll just scan you, find your gun, ask to see your permit, and then politely remind you not to let any of the other patrons borrow it.

If they have a standing policy of restricting carry, and you've all just been easily sneaking guns onto the premises, then shame on you and hurrah for stricter standards. If you can sneak your perfectly legal gun into the park, then less reputable folk can no doubt get theirs in, as well. Step up security and keep the Mouse Ninjas trained up, and the level of safety will be as high or higher than it would be with a bunch of crotchety, middle-aged, "Molon-Labe!" hat-wearing RKBAers hauling out their Kahrs to try to assess and neutralize the threat every time a balloon pops. :neener: I suspect that the objection here is not to the increased danger, but to the increased dependence. Libertarians can't stand having someone else take responsibility for defending them (or for anything else, for that matter!)

If you're worried about safety in the parking lots, then they should just install security lockers so you can carry right up to the gate, exchange your gun for a little regained youth, and go stand in some lines. When you get done, you show your claim ticket, strap your pistol to your candy-engorged waist, and head for the family chariot.

In conclusion, Disney's policy doesn't do us any essential wrong, and Disney World is about as safe as a place can be, as long as you're careful what you eat.

[rhetorical question, do not hijack thread]
On the topic of carrying in amusement parks, how frequently do you suppose pistols clatter to the ground under rollercoasters or other "upside down" rides? I've seen wallets, glasses, watches and shoes down there, and I doubt my gun is more secure to me than my wristwatch.[/rhetorical question]

Can't we get an idea of the effect this will have by comparing the incidence of serious violence on the premises of Disney World and Disney Land? Florida to California is a pretty big contrast, RKBA-wise. Heck, throw in Euro-Disney, though I think fourteen patrons may be too small a sample. :)
 
Quote:"Listen, we as a society have apparantly decided that, while you may keep anyone you like off of your non-commercial property, you do not, as a business owner, have an absolute right to hold your business open to the general public while simultaneously discriminating against, for example, the handicapped."

Well my problem with this augument is you can't discriminate against people for what they are (Mexican, handicapped, ect.) but you can discriminate people for what they do (behavior). You are not a different kind of person if you carry a concealed weapon. You can't do anything about the color of their skin but you can modify your behavior. If you are behaving in a way that is not acceptable to the business, you don't get to come in or they may ask you to leave. They make the rules, you can follow them or stay home. Now if the state of Florida changes the law and states you can't discriminate CC persons from any business well, now you got a better point.
 
gulogulo1970, in my opinion, the personal decision to carry a concealed weapon is just that, a personal decision. It should not be subject to other people's opinions anymore than the color of my undershorts. What if they asked everyone to expose their undershorts to security guards as they enter, because the owner has something against red ones? Would you go along with that as a property right for a business open to the general public? Carrying concealed is a private matter, and has nothing to do with "Conduct." Conduct is the way you behave or carry yourself, and has no more to do with carrying concealed than it has to do with wearing red undershorts.
 
I'm not convinced that concealed carry is a behavior.

Shoting up the place, now that's a behavior, but if an ordinary person can't distinguish someone carrying from someone not carrying, I think the "behavior" arguument is weak.

I agree that the law needs to change to protect people's rights to protect themselves -- even on private property.
 
In fact, that article doesn't say anything at all about forbidding the legal carry of firearms by licensed citizens. Perhaps they'll just scan you, find your gun, ask to see your permit, and then politely remind you not to let any of the other patrons borrow it.
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:scrutiny:

Are we both talking about the same Disney World?

Here's to hoping that it does goes down like that though.

brad cook
 
I don't give my money to the fag lovers anyway, but that's another discussion.
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Yes, that is another discussion. Why bring it here? It's a hateful comment and it doesn't do anything for our cause. Leave it at the door.

brad cook
 
Reminder

Attacks on other people's sexual orientation are not allowed on THR.

THR exists to further a particular agenda: that of responsible firearms ownership for as many people as possible. In view of the fact that our members are homosexual, bisexual, heterosexual, or simply sexual, and in view of the fact that our members are atheist, agnostic, buddhist, muslim, Catholic, protestant, Mormon, JW, and pagan -- it would be really a bad idea for the moderators to allow anyone to get away with slamming anyone else's sexual orientation or religion.

Your Grandma's old rule, "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all" applies to both topics.

pax

Conflict is inevitable, but combat is optional. -- Max Lucado
 
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