Red Wind
Member
Timmybosko said:
You are welcome. Yes, 9.6 murders per 100,000 in 1975 vs 4.5 in 2015 is a vast improvement. More than cut in half. That is thousands of lives saved per year.
And welcome to THR.I hope you enjoy your stay.
Do You Carry Concealed into your Church?
- Thread starter jamesinalaska
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You are welcome. Yes, 9.6 murders per 100,000 in 1975 vs 4.5 in 2015 is a vast improvement. More than cut in half. That is thousands of lives saved per year.
And welcome to THR.I hope you enjoy your stay.
1911 guy
Member
I am for CCW in places of worship and support those who do. I carry myself every Sunday. I also have a letter in my Bible from the church leadership requesting that I do so.
It is, however, incumbent on those who choose to exercise the right of self defense (and defense of others) in crowded environments to intimately know the constraints of operating safely in the environment and their own limitations.
I am in no way saying don't do it (unless that is personal conviction), but i am saying be realistic and be prepared. I have trained in tight quarters and drawing a gun in crowded pews is one of my nightmare scenarios. Aside from legal consequences, collateral damage is my friends and family.
It is, however, incumbent on those who choose to exercise the right of self defense (and defense of others) in crowded environments to intimately know the constraints of operating safely in the environment and their own limitations.
I am in no way saying don't do it (unless that is personal conviction), but i am saying be realistic and be prepared. I have trained in tight quarters and drawing a gun in crowded pews is one of my nightmare scenarios. Aside from legal consequences, collateral damage is my friends and family.
jimmyraythomason
Member
This is a very real concern, however, in the event of an invasion by AK carrying radicals intent on killing everyone there....what other choice is there?
TwinReverb
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jimmyraythomason said:
Hopefully everyone would have the common sense to get down, rather than run.
But that would be a hairy situation. Me, I wouldn't fire until/unless I could get very close to 100% sure that I wouldn't hit a bystander.
1911 guy
Member
To be clear, I am not advocating going unarmed, nor am I advocating that only those with jedi powers go armed in close places. I am, however, saying that if you do go armed in situations like this, be realistic about your abilities and take action accordingly. Someone with minimal training but realistic assessment can be a real value in a bad situation.
jimmyraythomason
Member
Doubt that that would do much good in a hail of gun fire. Church pews are made of wood and would be little protection. The only hope would be an armed resistance to stop the shooters. Churches like mine are quite small and running wouldn't be much of an option or even a possibility.
Deltaboy1984
Member
Yes.
old lady new shooter
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I think in every congregation all the people who carry should get together to brainstorm scenarios and plan coordinated responses. For example, in a congregation where people always sit in the same place, prospective response might be able to be improved by one or more people changing their seat to a different location.
SSN Vet
Member
taking down church shooter with an AK
Some may not realize it, but there are people out there who absolutely hate people of particular faiths, especially those which do not condone their particular "lifestyle".
The New Life church shooting in Colorado Springs is the text book case of why concealed carry in church is a necessity. The shooter had been expelled from a missionary training program after "the voices in his head" compelled him to act out in extreme ways. 4 years later he came back with this motive....
He escaped after shooting 4 (2 died).
The next day he went to the New Life Church loaded for bear, threw smokes in the door at the emergency exits and then opened up on the parking lot in front of the main entrance, killing two teen age sisters in their van and wouding 3 others.
When he entered the building, Jeanne Assam (St. Jeanne in my book), a member of the security team, and former MN LEO, came straight at him from the welcome counter, holding her fire until she closed the distance, dropping him with multiple wounds.
The shooter then blew his brains out... which is almost always what happens in these events, after the first sign of armed opposition.
IMO opinion, Assam knew exactly what had to be done to avoid collateral damage.... she rand straight at the guy and held her fire until she closed to a safe (very close ) distance.
The tactics guys would likely evaluate this as suicidal, and indeed, it appears that she was totally willing to take one for the home team , rather than risk taking out one of the home team.
Assam was a church greeter and part of their "unarmed" security team.... but she had her personal CCW on her and put it to good use.
She likely survived her "charge" because another team member (who was unarmed) also rushed straight at the shooter, drawing his fire. That guy took cover behind a large post/pillar at the last second, and the shooter was firing at him when Assam took him down.
The attack was premeditated and fairly well planned and executed. It was estimated afterwards that if the shooter had not been downed in the foyer, upwards of 100 people would have been shot.
Sadly, the libs couldn't live with Assam being declared a hero, and dredged up dirt on her previous dismissal from the Minneapolis PD, after she was called to forcibly remove a person causing trouble on a public transit bus and was caught on the busses security video yelling obscenities at a the person. So the media made that the story and shamed her on national TV.... pretty much destroying her life.
Two themes associated with the shooter are common to many mass shootings (Columbine and Sandy Hook to name two):
1. Mental illness (the basis of his dismissal from missionary training)
2. Satanism (he was trying to get admitted into Ordo Templi Orientis, an ocultic "quasi-religious" organization made famous by Aleister Crowley, who's credo is "Do what thou wilt")
Please note that I have chosen not to mention the name of the shooter, as I don't want to contribute to his infamy.... these types should be cremated and flushed down the toilet imo, with no legacy or notoriety ascribed to them.
Some may not realize it, but there are people out there who absolutely hate people of particular faiths, especially those which do not condone their particular "lifestyle".
The New Life church shooting in Colorado Springs is the text book case of why concealed carry in church is a necessity. The shooter had been expelled from a missionary training program after "the voices in his head" compelled him to act out in extreme ways. 4 years later he came back with this motive....
He escaped after shooting 4 (2 died).
The next day he went to the New Life Church loaded for bear, threw smokes in the door at the emergency exits and then opened up on the parking lot in front of the main entrance, killing two teen age sisters in their van and wouding 3 others.
When he entered the building, Jeanne Assam (St. Jeanne in my book), a member of the security team, and former MN LEO, came straight at him from the welcome counter, holding her fire until she closed the distance, dropping him with multiple wounds.
The shooter then blew his brains out... which is almost always what happens in these events, after the first sign of armed opposition.
IMO opinion, Assam knew exactly what had to be done to avoid collateral damage.... she rand straight at the guy and held her fire until she closed to a safe (very close ) distance.
The tactics guys would likely evaluate this as suicidal, and indeed, it appears that she was totally willing to take one for the home team , rather than risk taking out one of the home team.
Assam was a church greeter and part of their "unarmed" security team.... but she had her personal CCW on her and put it to good use.
She likely survived her "charge" because another team member (who was unarmed) also rushed straight at the shooter, drawing his fire. That guy took cover behind a large post/pillar at the last second, and the shooter was firing at him when Assam took him down.
The attack was premeditated and fairly well planned and executed. It was estimated afterwards that if the shooter had not been downed in the foyer, upwards of 100 people would have been shot.
Sadly, the libs couldn't live with Assam being declared a hero, and dredged up dirt on her previous dismissal from the Minneapolis PD, after she was called to forcibly remove a person causing trouble on a public transit bus and was caught on the busses security video yelling obscenities at a the person. So the media made that the story and shamed her on national TV.... pretty much destroying her life.
Two themes associated with the shooter are common to many mass shootings (Columbine and Sandy Hook to name two):
1. Mental illness (the basis of his dismissal from missionary training)
2. Satanism (he was trying to get admitted into Ordo Templi Orientis, an ocultic "quasi-religious" organization made famous by Aleister Crowley, who's credo is "Do what thou wilt")
Please note that I have chosen not to mention the name of the shooter, as I don't want to contribute to his infamy.... these types should be cremated and flushed down the toilet imo, with no legacy or notoriety ascribed to them.
Last edited:
Timmybosko
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I think it is a shame how the libs/media ruined her life.. Over spoken profanities? Wow
Trunk Monkey
member
Yes
1911 guy
Member
While we do live in an age of different threats to security, namely those mentioned by SSN Vet, there still exist the same threats of yesterday. It has not been unheard of for people to rob churches simply to take the weekly offerings, rob parishioners or settle scores among family members.
Again, my position is not one of choosing to disarm because of limited training or ability, but rather to be cognizant of these limitations and work within them. I would much rather be surrounded by armed people who are realistic about their abilities than either unarmed victims or armed delusionals.
I agree that given today's social climate, it is wise to have an armed response available in places of worship, regardless of denomination. But those responsible for bringing that to bear MUST recognize that errant rounds do not go safely into backstops. They go, potentially, into the very people you are trying to protect. A working plan that falls within the scope of your abilities is required. Unless you have the marksmanship of Jerry Miculek, shooting from across a crowded auditorium is probably not your best option.
Volunteer sometime to assist in passing the offering plates, if your denomination allows for it. As you pass pews, one by one, look at what lies between you and the rear doors, where most problems become apparent. Start thinking about where you'd move to, where you should probably start from (and begin sitting there for services) and at what distance you can begin to bring a handgun to bear without endangering people yourself. Go in five minutes late one Sunday. Notice the view from the rear to the front, as most churches also have access to the altar or pulpit from other areas.
Go armed, but go armed intelligently.
Again, my position is not one of choosing to disarm because of limited training or ability, but rather to be cognizant of these limitations and work within them. I would much rather be surrounded by armed people who are realistic about their abilities than either unarmed victims or armed delusionals.
I agree that given today's social climate, it is wise to have an armed response available in places of worship, regardless of denomination. But those responsible for bringing that to bear MUST recognize that errant rounds do not go safely into backstops. They go, potentially, into the very people you are trying to protect. A working plan that falls within the scope of your abilities is required. Unless you have the marksmanship of Jerry Miculek, shooting from across a crowded auditorium is probably not your best option.
Volunteer sometime to assist in passing the offering plates, if your denomination allows for it. As you pass pews, one by one, look at what lies between you and the rear doors, where most problems become apparent. Start thinking about where you'd move to, where you should probably start from (and begin sitting there for services) and at what distance you can begin to bring a handgun to bear without endangering people yourself. Go in five minutes late one Sunday. Notice the view from the rear to the front, as most churches also have access to the altar or pulpit from other areas.
Go armed, but go armed intelligently.
old lady new shooter
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"the libs couldn't live with Assam being declared a hero, and dredged up dirt on her "
That's beyond disgusting.
That's beyond disgusting.
Trunk Monkey
member
Its also not strictly true, Jeanne Assam managed to dig up quite a bit of dirt all by her self.
She is currently unemployed and living off the charity of friends. According to an interview she gave last year she's convinced that the shooter is literally in Hell and she put him there and it's basically eating her up.
She also claims that she was kicked out of New Life Church for coming out, a claim the Church Denies.
SSN Vet
Member
The point of my statements about the media and Assam was to highlight, how even when there's a clean shoot that takes down a pre-meditated mass murderer, the main stream media can't possibly acknowledge that a private citizen deploying a legally concealed side arm saved the day. Rather, they went rummaging through her past and publically shamed her for past screw ups... while she was apparently trying to make a fresh start.
The shooter in this event sent him self to hell before he pulled the trigger, as he flatly rejected anything and everything that was associated with heaven.
The shooter in this event sent him self to hell before he pulled the trigger, as he flatly rejected anything and everything that was associated with heaven.
old lady new shooter
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"even when there's a clean shoot that takes down a pre-meditated mass murderer, the main stream media can't possibly acknowledge that a private citizen deploying a legally concealed side arm saved the day"
bingo.
bingo.
Zaydok Allen
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If I attended a church, I certainly would.
Of course my church is more or less the woods. So I guess in that context, I often open carry in my church, and have in fact drawn in church once. I know that's not what you mean though.
Of course my church is more or less the woods. So I guess in that context, I often open carry in my church, and have in fact drawn in church once. I know that's not what you mean though.
kimberkid
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I wonder how that graph would change if you took NY City, Washington DC, Chicago and LA out of the equation ...
1911 guy
Member
kimberkid, that study has indeed been done. The cities with the top ten most restrictive gun laws were removed from the study (Chicago, Detroit, the usual suspects). Result? America has one of the lowest violent crime rates in the world. Something like bottom six percent or so. Can't remember the figure offhand, but did read it not too long ago.
Low crime rate is good, but does not mean it can't happen. Always remember that to everyone else on the planet, YOU are the "other guy". And it always happens to "the other guy".
Low crime rate is good, but does not mean it can't happen. Always remember that to everyone else on the planet, YOU are the "other guy". And it always happens to "the other guy".
TwinReverb
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SSN_Vet said:
Exactly. The shooter was bonkers. Assam was more than justified in attacking. I think it was wrong for the media to try to attack her.
As for justification, for those who subscribe to the Christian religion, or those who claim it's only peaceful, Jesus made sure the disciples had swords (Luke 22) before He went to the garden of Gethsemane.
Aside from this, as a Christian, I can tell you it's silly for me to pray that, for instance, God keep me safe when I'm driving across this country if I don't do common sense things (i.e. "put feet on my prayers"), like make sure my tires are properly inflated, my seat belt is on, etc. How is praying for protection any different? I shouldn't just naively pray for it, I should do something about it, like not go looking for trouble, driving in a way I don't provoke road rage in others, not flipping people off, not causing trouble, etc, and also concealed carry where I am allowed.
So if I think it should be acceptable for me to carry in church, I think it should be acceptable in all religions and in all places. I hope the laws change, and I'll be advocating that they do, to give everyone this right.
GBExpat
Member
If I have to go into a church, yes, I am carrying.
jimmyraythomason
Member
This is exactly why I have disconnected the horn on my wife's car!
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