Do you OC or CC and why
- Thread starter myFRAGisFUBAR
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I think it's pretty self explanatory, and goes along with my previous post, shortly prior, only two posts up in the discussion.
Gun grabs during an arrest or other activity initiated by LEOs as part of their duty are quite different from what a private citizen openly carrying would expect to encounter. In terms of other gun grabs (those not occuring as a result of LEO initiated activity), I think we all agree that an LEO is generally a far less attractive target than a private citizen OC'er due to the additional "attention" such an attack is likely to focus on the attacker, the additional training an LEO has to prevent such attacks, the additional protective equipment LEOs wear, etc. And yet it still happens.
So yes, it is true that some attacks on LEOs (where a gun was taken after the attack simply because it was there and hard to pass up) have nothing to do with a criminal attempting to acquire a firearm. But that doesn't change the fact that some LEOs are actually targeted specifically for their guns. We also know that it's not generally possible to say for sure which is which unless the criminal is apprehended and is willing to discuss the matter openly.
All that to say this: The fact that some LEOs are targeted for attack based on reasons that have nothing to do with their openly carried firearms, does not in any way diminish the validity of the claim that LEOs are sometimes targeted for attack as a source of firearms.
Garmangabis
Member
I guess I just want my being armed to be a horrible surprise to any bad guy, something I know that he doesn't.
Knowledge = power.
Your physical stature has nothing to do with concealment.
Either choice, get a good belt, and a leather holster.
Tactical nylon is comfortable for about as long as it takes to storm a crack den.
Knowledge = power.
Your physical stature has nothing to do with concealment.
Either choice, get a good belt, and a leather holster.
Tactical nylon is comfortable for about as long as it takes to storm a crack den.
Black Butte
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This statement is patently absurd. Posting garbage doesn't advance either side of the argument.
Bobson
Member
In a way, this has always been a primary reason I choose CC over OC. Not necessarily because I "want it to be a surprise," but for the same reason I would rather listen to people talk, than do the talking myself, when I'm around people I don't know well. I would rather get to know them and get an idea of what they're about, before putting my cards out in the open, so to speak. Similarly, if I know I'm going to be in an expectedly isolated environment (like a fishing or hunting trip, or isolated hiking/camping), I'll probably be more open to the idea of OC. OTOH, if I'm going shopping or church or a generally populated area, I'll most definitely CC.
To quote Jackie Chan in Rush Hour , "Not being able to speak is not the same as not speaking. You seem as if you like to talk. I like to let people talk who like to talk. It makes it easier to find out how FoS they are."
The same principle applies well to carrying a firearm, IMO.
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NavyLCDR
member
I will agree the firearm is desirable for the criminal to acquire. I will not agree that for all criminals it is more desireable than jewelry. If the criminal already has a firearm, it is much easier to steal cash, credit cards, and other valuables that are also easier to get rid of, rather than try to steal another firearm, especially off the belt of the person carrying it. In addition, there are many more ways much easier and less hazardous to the criminal's health and freedom than stealing a gun from the person carrying it, ESPECIALLY if they don't have a gun of their own and are trying to acquire one!
I will not agree that the deterrent affect of the firearm only exists when the criminal is within sight of the subject. There is also the possibility that the criminal will be detected during the initial stages of the attack by the subject or bystanders and be thwarted in their attempt before they can accomplish their goal. If you are presented with a locked vehicle, and an unlocked vehicle in an empty parking lot, are you going to choose the locked vehicle to break into just because you don't think that someone would detect you defeating the lock? Or would you just check out the unlocked vehicle first because it would be much easier?
If the determined criminal is not deterred by the point of the gun or the sight of the gun, then so be it. Open carry has the advantage of much less movement required to draw and fire. I have one less step to accomplish, I don't have to remove the cover garment from my gun. If the criminal is not deterred by the sight of the gun, they sure won't be deterred by the mere guess and possibility that I might have one concealed.
I also desagree with "in the unlikely event that desperate criminals might undertake an armed criminal action, the realization that there is an armed citizen present, should it materialize after the event is already under way, would (1) negate any deterrent effect, and (2) put that citizen at great risk." given the following examples:
http://www.ammoland.com/2009/07/gun-owner-saves-lives-in-the-richmond-va-golden-market-shooting/
http://www.examiner.com/article/open-carry-deters-armed-robbery-kennesaw
Several different surveys and historical data indicates that a criminal has no desire to face an armed citizen if they don't have to. How many posts in the last few years have we read where the concealed carry guy says that he "let his shirt ride up to 'accidentally' expose his gun" to some suspicious character and the suspicious character ran off. A lot more than "the guy tried to grab my gun off my belt".
I'm not saying there are any absolutes. I'm just saying that I have no reason not to play the odds that history and research shows are in my favor, especially given the location and environment that I am normally living my life in.
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Bobson
Member
Everything I deleted from this quoted post rests on the shoulders of these two remaining sentences. Without them, your entire point here is essentially lost. Each of the points you made in disagreeing are still perfectly valid, but there's no longer a firm, ever-present reason to choose OC over CC.
Nothing is ever going to be the best in every situation. Hopefully, if you ever find yourself needing a firearm to protect yourself, the circumstances are in favor of your habit of OC, and likewise for anyone who chooses CC. There's certainly no guarantee either way.
I'm not trying to say these two quoted sentences are false, but they're very misleading. To say that "much less movement is required" to draw from OC suggests that much less time is involved in order to draw, and that just isn't true.
Here are two related videos by the late Paul Gomez. This video is Gomez' explanation/demonstration of the four-count drawstroke. This one is his explanation and demonstration of drawing a firearm from under a cover garment. I really don't have anything against OC. I don't think it's wise to do it in certain situations or places, but I've been considering OC on occasion lately, depending on my plans for the day. The problem, to me, is when someone pretends that OC is so much better/faster/safer than CC, regardless of what's going on. That's pretty arrogant.
I don't know if drawstroke is a pretty "newby" concept to most shooters. I shot for years without ever even hearing the term drawstroke, and really without giving thought to the process of drawing from a holster at all. About ten years after I first shot a handgun, I went through Air Force BMT (and Beretta M9 quals) in 2004 without hearing the term drawstroke. I completed a more advanced firearms qualification course (which included more advanced training with the M9) in 2006 before deploying to Iraq - again, without being taught anything about drawing a pistol from a holster. Less than two years ago, I successfully completed the AZ Dept of Corrections academy with the top score in my class for firearms, using the Glock 19, and didn't hear the term drawstroke, nor was drawing a pistol from a holster covered in any detail whatsoever (aside from the 30-second warning, "look out for the strap so it doesn't go into the trigger guard when you re-holster." Which was great, but to say it was inadequate is an understatement).
When I first learned of Gomez' videos, which was after that academy, my mind was blown. Things I had never even considered before began to click, and after less than a day of practicing my drawstroke around the house, it went from being slow, awkward, and cumbersome to remarkably smooth, effortless, and fast. I really think this is under-emphasized in the shooting community, and maybe even here on THR, and I feel that the drawstroke itself is the "butter" to this "bread" topic of OC vs CC.
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RX-178
Member
My answer, in regards to the thread title...
Yes, and because I can
Yes, and because I can
NavyLCDR
member
Nor is there a firm, ever-present reason to choose CC over OC.
But of the initial stages of the attack are under way, the attack has not been deterred. It has become a matter of self defense. We were speaking of deterrence.
Interesting. The reasons for my assertions should be completely self evident. I had no idea that anyone could disagree with them. I am amazed.
But it is clear that you have missed the point completely.
In the first instance, the weapon carried by the armed citizen had absolutely no deterrent effect at all. The robbery was under way, and the citizen intervened. Good thing, but we were speaking of the deterrence afforded by a visible firearm.
In the second instance, the robbers realized that armed citizens were present before the event was under way, and they elected to not initiate the robbery.
Common sense also tells one that rational criminals do not want to face armed citizens if they can reasonably avoid doing so. The questions are, (1) what if they are not rational, (2) what if they "have to" because of a desperate need, the fulfillment of which cannot be postponed or met differently, and/or (3) what if it is too late to change plans, as in the case of the man facing the citizen with the 1875 Remington?
I'm afraid that that obvious statement in reply to Bobson's balanced and very informative post about the speed of the draw gives the impression that you are simply trying to argue for the sake of argument.
shep854
Member
*Sigh* Snobbery is evidently not limited to the CC crowd...
I was at a local Starbucks the other night, and noticed another customer OC'ing. Not a problem, he was quietly minding his own affairs. Hopefully, he was maintaining his situational awareness, because he was carrying his Glock in an open-topped Kydex holster. I wondered how easy it would have been to snatch the pistol; at one point it was in easy reach. Should I carry openly, I will have at least a thumbstrap on the holster.
A great advantage of pocket carry (for me, anyway) is that by simply sliding my hand into the pocket, I can get a firm grip on my gun without giving away the fact that I'm armed and the actual draw is as quick as from an open holster.
I was at a local Starbucks the other night, and noticed another customer OC'ing. Not a problem, he was quietly minding his own affairs. Hopefully, he was maintaining his situational awareness, because he was carrying his Glock in an open-topped Kydex holster. I wondered how easy it would have been to snatch the pistol; at one point it was in easy reach. Should I carry openly, I will have at least a thumbstrap on the holster.
A great advantage of pocket carry (for me, anyway) is that by simply sliding my hand into the pocket, I can get a firm grip on my gun without giving away the fact that I'm armed and the actual draw is as quick as from an open holster.
*Sigh* Snobbery is evidently not limited to the CC crowd...
I was at a local Starbucks the other night, and noticed another customer OC'ing. Not a problem, he was quietly minding his own affairs. Hopefully, he was maintaining his situational awareness, because he was carrying his Glock in an open-topped Kydex holster. I wondered how easy it would have been to snatch the pistol; at one point it was in easy reach. Should I carry openly, I will have at least a thumbstrap on the holster.
A great advantage of pocket carry (for me, anyway) is that by simply sliding my hand into the pocket, I can get a firm grip on my gun without giving away the fact that I'm armed and the actual draw is as quick as from an open holster.
You are aware that some holsters, typically constructed of kydex, are open top yet still have active retention devices that must be de-activated before the pistol can be pulled from the holster, correct?
The issue with your assessment of pocket carry is that the actual draw is only as quick when you begin with your hand in your pocket and on the gun. If you do not begin that way, it's definitely slower.
This is a very interesting thread. My opinion, for what it's worth is how a person carries their firearm is a personal choice and is not obligated to explain it. We make our desisions and live with them.
The last word in the title of this thread, Why, asks a question with many different answers and who can say which are right or wrong?
The last word in the title of this thread, Why, asks a question with many different answers and who can say which are right or wrong?
shep854
Member
@Warp: Yes I am . Also, a good CC holster should offer a degree of retention.
I truly hope someone planning to carry openly takes the time to procure a holster that provides reliable retention, then masters it, so his draw is not hindered by those selfsame features.
I'm a dinosaur; I like a thumbstrap for retention, but that's just me. Each person should determine what works best for them!
. Also, a good CC holster should offer a degree of retention.I truly hope someone planning to carry openly takes the time to procure a holster that provides reliable retention, then masters it, so his draw is not hindered by those selfsame features.
I'm a dinosaur; I like a thumbstrap for retention, but that's just me. Each person should determine what works best for them!
I don't care much for a simple thumbstrap. I think they are too plainly obvious to everybody and too easy to defeat from virtually any angle. JMO, though I do occasionally OC using a Simply Rugged OWB holster that has only a thumbstrap...but not often.
shep854
Member
@Warp; That's what's nice about all the options. In the case I mentioned, the holster seemed to be a simple Kydex shell--which does indeed have some retention capability due to its close fit.
At the opposite extreme are some of the police holsters which may require two or more separate steps to release the pistol. Mas Ayoob has written about weapon retention, and once described a holster (can't remember which right now) that unless the proper steps were followed, wouldn't release even if the wearer was picked up off the ground by the pistol itself.
As has been pointed out throughout the thread, there is NO one right way.
At the opposite extreme are some of the police holsters which may require two or more separate steps to release the pistol. Mas Ayoob has written about weapon retention, and once described a holster (can't remember which right now) that unless the proper steps were followed, wouldn't release even if the wearer was picked up off the ground by the pistol itself.
As has been pointed out throughout the thread, there is NO one right way.
This is also where a second gun or knife is useful. It may be faster and easier to pull a knife, out of your waistband or clipped to your pocket , and dispatch him, while he is trying to get your gun out of the holster. Same with a pocket gun, carrying in the opposite side pocket, ankle, or belly band.
Especially if he is using both hands to remove your gun.
I think if you are going to OC, you should have a second gun, and knife, it is too easy to find yourself in a setting like an elevator, where you have people all around you.
"A perfect place to try to separate one from their weapon.
Especially if he is using both hands to remove your gun.
I think if you are going to OC, you should have a second gun, and knife, it is too easy to find yourself in a setting like an elevator, where you have people all around you.
"A perfect place to try to separate one from their weapon.
Hanzo581
Member
I wish there was a way for you open carry guys to test your retention methods safely in real life. You can take a class sure, but in that class you know it is going to happen, so you're always ready. I'd bet you anything that out in the real world you could easily be disarmed. I'm not saying you don't have situational awareness, I am just saying action is always faster than reaction.
And I wish that when people carried concealed they could actually be made away of every person who 'made' them or suspected the presence of the gun.
But seriously, why the need to separate people into categories and label them?
If I open carry 5% of the time, and I an "open carry guy"?
Al Thompson
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Looks like we are going in circles now, so I'll call this one done.
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