Do you OC or CC and why

[herrwalther]

The story I posted is a one time instance, yes. But how many times have you opened the paper and saw this general vague story outline "person killed with firearm." Does it ever say who owned the firearm, what kind, caliber etc? Not often. So using the news already puts a disadvantage of perception on how often an event occurs. Just because it is not heard about through the media often, may or may not be an indicator of frequency.

Studies into the effectiveness of open carry are difficult to substantiate for several reasons 1) open carry is not legal everywhere. So it is difficult to do a cross comparison to a state or city with similar socioeconomic background. 2) Even in places where open carry is legal, it is not very popular for whatever reason being ignorance that it is legal, a population considering open carry to be tactically unsound, more comfortable to carry concealed etc. However it is well documented that overall violent crime goes down when concealed carry numbers go up. Not the same case proving the effectiveness of open carry for reasons I have stated above.

Open carry can theoretically open up the door to a more complex selective victimization on behalf of the criminal. Criminals already use a situational criteria when planning crimes over varying time frames. The benefit of concealed carry over open carry is, again a theoretical basis, of pushing the crime somewhere else. This is hard to prove since reading minds is a little difficult. Take Criminal A and B who want to go shoot up a mall for whatever reason. They get there to discover it is an open carry day or an open carry group is there by circumstance, what is to prevent Criminal A and B to moving on to softer targets that don't appear to be armed? Nothing. Again this is theoretical. Now on the hand for concealed carry, same situation of Criminal A and B going to the mall, this time carrying out their crime. Their are stopped by member(s) of the mall concealed carrying. We see this in the occasional news story about crime being stopped by an armed citizen. Society as a whole benefits from concealed carry because the more people who conceal firearms, Criminals have a much harder time picking soft targets. With open carry criminals, theoretically, avoid open carrying hard targets.

Open carry or conceal it does not matter. Just carry. OC and CC will disagree on what on what is better for as long as firearms will be around. Just keep calm and carry on.

 

[Warp]

The story I posted is a one time instance, yes.

Exactly.

That is the definition of rare. Even just 1 fewer and it would be non-existent.

But how many times have you opened the paper and saw this general vague story outline "person killed with firearm." Does it ever say who owned the firearm, what kind, caliber etc? Not often. So using the news already puts a disadvantage of perception on how often an event occurs. Just because it is not heard about through the media often, may or may not be an indicator of frequency.

It's an indicator.

It's more than an indicator.

It is exceptionally rare. Extraordinarily rare. It almost never happens.

Take Criminal A and B who want to go shoot up a mall for whatever reason. They get there to discover it is an open carry day or an open carry group is there by circumstance, what is to prevent Criminal A and B to moving on to softer targets that don't appear to be armed?

Deterrence.

Exactly.

 

[herrwalther]

The deterrence factor is greater with concealed carry as their are potentially no soft targets in a rich concealed carry environment.

 

[Mainsail]

OC and CC will disagree on what on what is better for as long as firearms will be around.

Not really. OC and CC each have their time and place, and every OCer I know support both. It's only the militant CC people who get their panties in a bunch over the issue. If you ask them to provide an argument for their objection to OC, they cannot come up with anything rational- just the same debunked 'first shot' or 'defensive surprise'.

I'm one of the strongest proponents of OC in here, and I support (and practice) both.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Now on the hand for concealed carry, same situation of Criminal A and B going to the mall, this time carrying out their crime. Their are stopped by member(s) of the mall concealed carrying. We see this in the occasional news story about crime being stopped by an armed citizen. Society as a whole benefits from concealed carry because the more people who conceal firearms, Criminals have a much harder time picking soft targets. With open carry criminals, theoretically, avoid open carrying hard targets.

So, basically, what you are saying is that one advantage of concealed carry is the opportunity to rid the world of criminals...

That's an advantage I can certainly do without. I carry my firearm to protect my family as much as me. Putting them through the trauma of being attacked to begin with, followed by a self defense shooting, followed by the sight of the dead and/or gravely injured bodies, followed by the possible court case and civil lawsuit.... not my idea of the best way to protect them. I have no issues at all letting the other guy rid the world of criminals if the sight of my firearms turns them away from me. I guess I am just a wuss that way.

 

[Warp]

The deterrence factor is greater with concealed carry as their are potentially no soft targets in a rich concealed carry environment.

A person choosing to open carry doesn't mean nobody else can be carrying concealed.

This conversation isn't about making ONLY OC or CC legal, and the other illegal.

So the above quoted statement is false.

 

[Warp]

Not really. OC and CC each have their time and place, and every OCer I know supports both.

I agree with this.



Speaking of which, what should I call myself? Since apparently everybody has to label themselves and pick a "side" so that we can fight amongst ourselves over who is exercising their Rights/Liberties properly and who is not ( ) I open carry probably 5% of the time and concealed carry 90% of the time. The other 5% is places I can not carry at all.

What am I?

Why does it even matter?

 

[joe_security]

Mine stays in deep concealment at all times. OC is illegal here.

 

[oldcelt]

Ct. has no cc law but for more than 40 years I have concealed my gun just because I don't want the bad guy to see it untill I am ready to show it to him.

 

[herrwalther]

Not really. OC and CC each have their time and place, and every OCer I know support both. It's only the militant CC people who get their panties in a bunch over the issue. If you ask them to provide an argument for their objection to OC, they cannot come up with anything rational- just the same debunked 'first shot' or 'defensive surprise'.

I was tongue in cheek commenting on the polarizing views of firearm ownership. Most people are rational and take middle of the road approaches. I open carry but it is very rare, typically when I go hiking. As IWB can get rather uncomfortable.

So, basically, what you are saying is that one advantage of concealed carry is the opportunity to rid the world of criminals...

No. That would be vigilante justice, something I do not support. And something antis accuse us of being. A carry holder (OC or CC) has the obligation to themselves and family first. If other people get helped in the process, that is a bonus and not the goal.

A person choosing to open carry doesn't mean nobody else can be carrying concealed.

I was using a very black and white example for demonstration and effect. Which would happen in a perfectly controlled world. But there would be no crime in a perfectly controlled world either. Which is why I used the word potential. In a state where concealed carry is legal with no solid record of the percentage of a population with a carry license, and actually carrying. A criminal is detterred, either consciously or subconsciously, from committing crime. Not stopped completely merely given a contemplative pause as "If I do this, I might get shot by someone with a concealed weapon." Or not. Every conceal and open carrier could forget to put on their weapon and the crime could still happen.

 

[Somewhere in NM]

I CC because I am shy and would rather not talk to strangers just because I am doing something they perceive as different. I have no problem with those who OC.

 

[NavyLCDR]

So, basically, what you are saying is that one advantage of concealed carry is the opportunity to rid the world of criminals...

No. That would be vigilante justice, something I do not support. And something antis accuse us of being. A carry holder (OC or CC) has the obligation to themselves and family first. If other people get helped in the process, that is a bonus and not the goal.

I've actually had a CC only snob post before that it would be my fault if some poor defenseless little old lady got attacked by a criminal because they passed me up if they saw my gun. I've also had a different CC only snob think about what they posted and come back and say, (paraphrasing), "Wow. Now that I think about it, you are right... I was hoping for the chance to rid the world of a criminal." Admitted hero complex. I am not applying those attributes to you, herrwalther. Just discussions I have had in the past with others.

For the record, I don't care how anyone else carries their gun, or even if they carry a gun. There are times when I choose to conceal carry because in that particular circumstance I feel it is more appropriate. 90% of the time it is open carry for me. I just don't want other people to base their choices on opinions that are stated as fact with no evidence to support those opinions. That's why, when an opinion is stated, I ask, "Do you have any evidence to support that opinion, or is this just a theory of what could/might happen?"

 

[herrwalther]

I've actually had a CC only snob post before that it would be my fault if some poor defenseless little old lady got attacked by a criminal because they passed me up if they saw my gun. I've also had a different CC only snob think about what they posted and come back and say, (paraphrasing), "Wow. Now that I think about it, you are right... I was hoping for the chance to rid the world of a criminal." Admitted hero complex. I am not applying those attributes to you, herrwalther. Just discussions I have had in the past with others.

Understandable. Unfortunately it is hard to determine what effect open carry has on crime deterrence. Unless someone went around to prisons asking violent criminals "did you change targets because of open carry" type questions, the deterrence debate of OC>CC or CC>OC is theoretical at best. It is very clear however that offenders prefer their victims to be unarmed, that is expected. But never any exploration into what offers better deterrence OC or CC.

 

[Mainsail]

This debate gets sillier every time we have it, if only because some people run out of rational argument and leave the conversation, then the next time it comes up they trot out the same failed arguments as though they're new ones.

Say what you want about open carry; it works for me because it has worked for me. I’ll take my real experience over your speculation any day. In my case the crime was very minor- a strong-arm robbery. Sort of a target of opportunity event.

I lived in the Stadium District in Tacoma Washington and OC’d every day. I mention that because Tacoma is the most criminally infested city in the Pacific Northwest (FACT, not opinion) and it’s important to understand I wasn’t OCing in ‘nice’ places. Every Sunday after a big breakfast at The Harvester on Tacoma Ave, I would walk several laps around the perimeter of Wright Park. This is a beautiful park with some history (google it) and it borders the gang areas of Hilltop with the Stadium and Theater Districts.

On this particular Sunday as I was walking I observed two teens, maybe 16 or 17 years old walking the wide path around the park coming towards me. I thought it was odd only because it was only about 0830, and the teens are not usually out that early. The path is plenty wide enough for them to walk two abreast and pass me with four or five feet between us. They looked like regular kids so other than the fact they were out so early I had no reason to believe they were up to no good- probably coming home from a party. This part happens in about three seconds or less: While still a few yards away, the youth on the far side of the path abruptly crossed in front of his friend and walked straight towards me until he was squared off on me directly blocking my path. His eyes were fixed on my Oakleys but he glanced down to where my hands were in the kangaroo pocket of my sweatshirt, and spotted the Sig 1911 on my belt. He put his hands up and said, “Whoa man, no problem” and turned sharply to get back next to his friend. Then they both walked away.

I believe the one youth was planning on grabbing my sunglasses off my face, and sucker punching me either before or after. Now, if I were carrying concealed here were my possible options:
1. Never walk in the park, or leave my house for that matter = not practical whatsoever
2. Pull my CCW whenever anyone passed me on the path around the park = JAIL
3. Get robbed and pull my CCW as they were walking away = not reasonable even in a stand your ground state

My open carry prevented a crime against me, one for which a CCW would not have worked. For the types of crime common where I lived, OC was tactically a better choice. I prioritize my safety plan considering more-likely to less-likely, not the other way around. For every verified story you can find of someone robbed of their OC, I can find you a couple dozen where a bad guy walked in a place and started shooting without so much as saying boo. By the logic presented, you would be better off wearing a bullet-proof vest whenever you go out. Do you? After all, you’re more likely to be shot without waning than you are to use your CCW to protect yourself.

Is OC better for you, where you live? Maybe, maybe not, but please stop with the baseless speculation about what you think might happen and consider all your options.

 

[RBid]

Concealed, so I don't scare antis.

 

[Warp]

This debate gets sillier every time we have it, if only because some people run out of rational argument and leave the conversation, then the next time it comes up they trot out the same failed arguments as though they're new ones.

Say what you want about open carry; it works for me because it has worked for me. I’ll take my real experience over your speculation any day. In my case the crime was very minor- a strong-arm robbery. Sort of a target of opportunity event.

I lived in the Stadium District in Tacoma Washington and OC’d every day. I mention that because Tacoma is the most criminally infested city in the Pacific Northwest (FACT, not opinion) and it’s important to understand I wasn’t OCing in ‘nice’ places. Every Sunday after a big breakfast at The Harvester on Tacoma Ave, I would walk several laps around the perimeter of Wright Park. This is a beautiful park with some history (google it) and it borders the gang areas of Hilltop with the Stadium and Theater Districts.

On this particular Sunday as I was walking I observed two teens, maybe 16 or 17 years old walking the wide path around the park coming towards me. I thought it was odd only because it was only about 0830, and the teens are not usually out that early. The path is plenty wide enough for them to walk two abreast and pass me with four or five feet between us. They looked like regular kids so other than the fact they were out so early I had no reason to believe they were up to no good- probably coming home from a party. This part happens in about three seconds or less: While still a few yards away, the youth on the far side of the path abruptly crossed in front of his friend and walked straight towards me until he was squared off on me directly blocking my path. His eyes were fixed on my Oakleys but he glanced down to where my hands were in the kangaroo pocket of my sweatshirt, and spotted the Sig 1911 on my belt. He put his hands up and said, “Whoa man, no problem” and turned sharply to get back next to his friend. Then they both walked away.

I believe the one youth was planning on grabbing my sunglasses off my face, and sucker punching me either before or after. Now, if I were carrying concealed here were my possible options:
1. Never walk in the park, or leave my house for that matter = not practical whatsoever
2. Pull my CCW whenever anyone passed me on the path around the park = JAIL
3. Get robbed and pull my CCW as they were walking away = not reasonable even in a stand your ground state

My open carry prevented a crime against me, one for which a CCW would not have worked. For the types of crime common where I lived, OC was tactically a better choice. I prioritize my safety plan considering more-likely to less-likely, not the other way around. For every verified story you can find of someone robbed of their OC, I can find you a couple dozen where a bad guy walked in a place and started shooting without so much as saying boo. By the logic presented, you would be better off wearing a bullet-proof vest whenever you go out. Do you? After all, you’re more likely to be shot without waning than you are to use your CCW to protect yourself.

Is OC better for you, where you live? Maybe, maybe not, but please stop with the baseless speculation about what you think might happen and consider all your options.

You would have had more options than that. I was with you right up until you said those would have been your only three options.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by Mainsail: If you ask them to provide an argument for their objection to OC, they cannot come up with anything rational- just the same debunked 'first shot' or 'defensive surprise'.

Post #55 substantiates the value of the concept of "surprise", if you want to call it that, rather effectively.

I point it out in case it was missed, and not to make a point along the lines of "denial ain't just a river in Egypt."

I cannot lawfully carry openly. If I could, I probably would, in some places, sometimes.

If I were still much of an outdoorsman, OC would be helpful. Some handguns that I would like to carry do not lend themselves to concealment.

I carry concealed, but very few people know that. It's none of their business.

I cannot reasonably assess the likelihood that someone behind me in a line might disable me to take an openly carried firearm, but the potential consequence would be severe. It's something I do not have to worry about.

 

[Mainsail]

You would have had more options than that. I was with you right up until you said those would have been your only three options.

Such as? The key here is the time. Either I'm constantly drawing (or almost drawing) every time someone comes near, which will get me arrested, or I have to wait for the bad guy to make the first move. In this case the bad guy made the first move but by the time his intentions became clear it was too late to draw even from my open carry.

 

[Mainsail]

Post #55 substantiates the value of the concept of "surprise", if you want to call it that, rather effectively.

55 is a long post.... much like many of mine.

Anyway, none of us deny that CC can work, because we can all see the results of it. None of us that OC are against CC, we are for both.

Surprise is not a defensive tactic no matter how many times you call it that. Pulling your CCW during an incident is not surprise- it's damage control- trying to turn the bad situation to go your way. Might it surprise your attacker? The bad guys know about CCW- it isn't a secret. There isn't much of a deterrent effect with CCW because the facts say that MOST people, even those with permits/licenses, don't carry. Nevertheless, unless you live in the Northeast (or CA) where permits are hard to get, the bad guy is likely prepared for the idea.

I don't want the damage control, I don't want to surprise my attacker, I want to be left alone by the bad guys. OC has done that.

 

[Inebriated]

I OC when I hunt. CC everywhere else.

I don't like attention, and OC tends to bring attention. At least in my experience, it has.

 

[Warp]

Such as? The key here is the time. Either I'm constantly drawing (or almost drawing) every time someone comes near, which will get me arrested, or I have to wait for the bad guy to make the first move. In this case the bad guy made the first move but by the time his intentions became clear it was too late to draw even from my open carry.

Your gun is not the one and only be all end all solution to every single situation or problem you may encounter. That kind of thinking is very, very dangerous.


Example 1: Side step or backstep while putting your support hand up in a defensive position or out in a stop-sign position while verbalizing something (ie GET BACK!) and, if you are reasonably justified in doing so, possibly put your strong hand on the grip of your holstered gun. This response would probably have the same effect as them seeing a holstered gun on your hip. It would also be wise to call the police and inform of of everything you can afterwards.

Example 2: Similar to the above, but your support hand is drawing a can of OC (oleoresin capsicum aka pepper spray) from your pocket/belt.

Example 3: Similar to the above, but you don't draw anything or put your hand on the gun.

Bear in mind, you might have a difficult time justifying why you drew your gun because some guy stopped and stood in front of you. I mean, you are talking about your only other option being to draw your gun because people got close to you. Seriously? That's downright dangerous. You can't draw your gun just because some kid stopped in front of you and looked at your glasses. If he took a step or two towards you, would you shoot him? If the answer is anything but an unequivocal YES, then you shouldn't be drawing.

I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice. But I do suggest you think very carefully about the threshold that must be reached before you draw your pistol.

 

[JohnKSa]

Surprise is not a defensive tactic no matter how many times you call it that. Pulling your CCW during an incident is not surprise...

Ridiculous. In all 3 cases I documented, the CCW'er surprised the attacker/abductor and was able to defend both himself and the other victims.

Surprise can certainly be a defensive tactic and I provided three concrete, real-world examples to prove it.

I don't know who came up with the idea that surprise can't be a defensive tactic, but they either have problem with logic, are willing to ignore real-world examples, are just spouting what sounds good to them, or some combination of the above three possibilities.

...they trot out the same failed arguments as though they're new ones.

Well said. Just so there's no question, and regardless of whether people have the logical reasoning skills to understand it, the statement "Surprise is not a defensive tactic." is a failed argument.

It can be easily countered using logic and the proper definition of surprise, but that's not necessary because it is directly contradicted by real-world examples which clearly disprove it.

However, as you say, I have no doubt that I will see it "trotted out" again, and by the same people who have already been shown that it is invalid.

Pulling your CCW during an incident is not surprise- it's damage control- trying to turn the bad situation to go your way.

You can't redefine a word just because its actual meaning doesn't suit your purpose.

It is surprise in most cases. And yes, it is trying to turn the situation your way. Trying to turn the situation your way via surprise. If you think that pulling a gun on a criminal isn't a surprise to the criminal in most cases, then the whole concept of OC as a deterrent is logically bankrupt.

If your position is that the sight of a gun deters most criminals (as your OC gun deterred the two suspicious persons in your story) then it doesn't make sense for you to say that criminals attack CC'ers knowing they have guns. If criminals avoid armed attackers and can tell who is CC'ing then they would avoid them.

That means that in most cases, when a criminal attacks a CC'er and is confronted by a gun, they are SURPRISED. They encountered something unexpected--which is the definition of surprised.

The reality of defensive gun uses bears this out. We know that about 90% of defensive gun uses involve the criminal running as soon as the gun is displayed--generally before there's a need or chance to fire a shot. Clearly in most cases, criminals attack what they believe to be unarmed targets and when surprised by the presence of gun, 9 out of 10 times they change their mind about carrying the attack through to completion.

So it's clearly a surprise, in most cases, when a CC gun is presented in an attack, and it's certainly a defensive tactic to surprise a criminal. An effective one that works about 9 out of 10 times.

I don't want to surprise my attacker...

The first meaning of surprise is: 1. an unexpected or astonishing event, fact, or thing.

What's really ironic is that your retelling of your OC incident demonstrates that the two youths in your exampled were obviously surprised when they saw your gun--in other words, you, yourself used surprise as a defensive tactic without realizing it. Your being armed was clearly an "unexpected event" for the two persons you encountered and they immediately changed their tactics upon encountering that "unexpected event"--immediately after being surprised by your gun.

You used surprise as a tactic without having to draw your gun (a clear advantage over CC for your particular scenario and the circumstances that governed it) but it's obvious from their reaction that they did not expect/were surprised to find that their intended victim was armed and that surprise worked to your defensive advantage.

 

[Warp]

stuff

You went into that post in so much detail, yet you completely ignored the main point.

What is your response to this part of it:

"I want to be left alone by the bad guys. OC has done that."

 

[Mainsail]

So.... you have no ideas. I never made the claim the gun was the "only be all end all solution to every single situation or problem may encounter."

I was in a PARK, people pass you every minute or so in the park. Your suggestions would get me arrested or sent to the insane asylum. By the time I was able to determine his intent, I didn't have time to draw my open carry. I can draw from the Serpa very fast, but I never got my hands out of the sweatshirt pocket.

I'm always reluctant to discuss the incident for two reasons, one is it's difficult to properly articulate, and second because there's always someone (who wasn't there) who has some grand idea of how it could have been done better. Let me clue you in on something; you will never be in a robbery that goes down in a way you were expecting and for which you were prepared.

 

[JohnKSa]

You went into that post in so much detail, yet you completely ignored the main point.

Read through to the end.

"You used surprise as a tactic without having to draw your gun (a clear advantage over CC for your particular scenario and the circumstances that governed it)...

And from an earlier post on this thread, just so there's no confusion.

Again, it's not black and white. A person who is willing and able to accept and assess the facts will almost immediately realize that in some circumstances CC makes a lot more sense while under a different set of circumstances, OC would be the optimal choice. For that matter, there are some circumstances under which it is best not to be armed at all.