Do you REALLY want to rack a shotgun when you hear a bump in the night?

[MrAcheson]

If you produce a gun and the other person doesn't have one, you have escalated force.

Not in all states. If there is a significant disparity of force, then you can still draw. 4 of them to one of me? Draw. A couple of them with baseball bats? Draw. One of them with a blade? Draw. All it takes is an expectation of serious bodily injury and drawing is justified.

 

[Baba Louie]

I have been thinking about this classic home invasion scenario: when you wake to a noise in another part of your house, do you really want to rack a Remington 870 (or other pump) shotgun, thereby alerting the intruder you are awake and armed?

The only reason to "rack" it is to load it. Facing some unknown intruder in my home with a 'less than loaded' firearm of any type is not something my dear old Dad taught me as being wise or conducive to enjoying a long and healthy life. For that reason, the 5 dogs, 2 attack cats, 3 shreiking cockatiels and the Glock stand ready to go as is. The shotgun will be loaded if I need to get to it and by then, we'll all be so deafened from the previous noises (being indoors and all), the sound of 'racking' a shotgun becomes a moot point. I also usually leave one light on in the front room of the house (some of the dogs find it a comfort in their old age). We discourage late night intruders around here.

Should I hear the stunning sound of a "Flash-Bang" grenade, I'll probably be in over my head from the get-go and just sit on my bed holding the G26 wondering what the heck did I do this time?

Escalation of force in my house against an intruder? My perogative.

 

[Sleuth]

444, I too keep a cocked & locked handgun for a full surprize/close contact secenario. The shotgun (or, in my case rifle, as I live way out in the country), is for the possibility I will have some warning.

 

[bogie]

I know of one occasion where a home intruder (he dropped from an apartment building's roof onto a 3rd floor balcony, and had just opened the door) jumped (from said balcony) upon hearing a shotgun being cocked. He was later visited in the hospital, and told that he made the correct choice.

 

[Kharn]

Well, racking the shotgun lets the perp know that you're not bluffing when you yell out "I've got a gun and the cops are on the way!"

Kharn

 

[Cavtrooper]

If I rack the shotgun, it's because about .25 seconds later there will be this really loud boom and a dead perp.
If you broke into my house... your are wrong.
If I even feel that you are a threat to my wife and kid.. you're a toe tag candidate.
If I feel that you're just stupid, I may warn you before I shoot, but don't count on it.

I've been around the block with this stuff, and my rules are basic.
1. It's MY house.
2. It's MY family.
3. When it comes to protecting both of them, I don't play.

....besides, I live out in the boonies, and the SD may be 10 minutes out. A lot can happen in ten minutes. I'd rather that I called the tune.

 

[444]

MrAcheson
I of course agree with everything you said. In fact, I allowed my fingers to type faster than my brain was feeding them information. What I intended to say was not specifcally a gun, but a threat of deadly force as you so correctly point out. The point of course is that if you are faced with the threat of deadly force and your only option to protect your life is to also employ deadly force, then you draw. If you are not presented with deadly force, in this state, you have no legal right to draw and present a deadly weapon. By doing so, you have escalated force. So, the act of drawing a handgun to scare someone away is not permitted in and of itself. If you draw, you are drawing with the intention of firing. You are not drawing to scare someone. If they run, back down, stop doing whatever they were doing, great; the outcome could not have been better. But when you drew that weapon, your intention was to immediately employ deadly force.

 

[Frohickey]

Okay, but for a pump shotgun used for home defense, what would be the condition its in?

1) Hammer down on an empty chamber action closed, tube magazine loaded, with the safety off?
2) Hammer up on a loaded chamber, action closed, tube magazine loaded, with the safety on?
3) Hammer up/down, action open, 1 shell in the load gate, tube magazine loaded, with the safety off?

Any others I have missed?

 

[sm]

First I agree with Tamara's take and responses.

For me personally it depended on the residence /business. For Instance I currently live in apt. I never subscribed to the "racking and scaring" technique. I'm a sneaky bastard, all my firearms have a rd chambered, including the 870. If a BG comes in the front door there is 7steps to my bedroom door, 3 more to the bed. I most likely will not have time to use a phone. I have time to snick off the safety...shotgun or C&L 1911...well there is one or two or three...handguns "handy" that don't have safeties.

When I had houses or babysit others, I had different approaches to the problem. The two 870's in the bedroom were chamber ready ( hers and mine) . Our 1911s were cocked and locked, we had a plan as to whom would use the phone and such. Another plan for when the kid was away and just us two. The other shotguns were cruisher ready stashed about and hidden. Now I had some K frames hidden about as well.

When the brickbat came through a business window one night I hunkered down and had a 870 at the ready. Manager hunkered down " didn't hear you rack that thing" he said. "Well if all hell breaks out you will have to listen quick in order to hear the safety snick off- because the next sound will be a bang" I replied. He put his hand over the phone to police and whispered "OH !". His eyes got big for some reason. I kept mine in the business close and a rd chambered.

 

[Delmar]

The possibility exists that you might not hear someone entering your house.

Hence the reason for the cocked and locked 1911 under the pillow.

After 9 rounds of hollow points, I'll then get to the 870 and rack it-I'll let you know if he runs

 

[Shakes CCW]

It happened with kids in the house

I was upstairs getting the baby when I heard someone breaking in the front door, I had three other kids down stairs and was not about to let them get that far. I put the baby down noisily racked the slide on my para P10-40 from the top of the stairs at which point I heard two people one of which said OH"S*** and both ran past the bottom of the stairs and out the front door. At which time I went to check on the kids 2 girls and a boy all under 10 yrs. old, and then let the rottweiler out who sniffed the air it seemed and made a bee line for the woods and diden't come back for over an hour.

The nearest police station is over an hour away at 90 m.p.h. I feel my actions were justified.

If they had not chose to leave they could of come after me, and even though the baby was with me they would of had to go through a hail of well placed shots as I frequent the range 12 times a month. better that than find and possibly harm or God knows what with the 2 little girls and boy down stairs.

In a un-perfect world, we can't always have perfect circumstances.

 

[Lord Grey Boots]

Hmm, nobody is talking about the two "racks" it takes to load a Ma-deuce .50 heavy machine gun.

You guys are slipping....

 

[Delmar]

A Ma deuce on the headboard would be very bed-tactical

 

[JPM70535]

Every time this subject comes up, I wonder if I am the only member who feels that personal items I have worked to pay for are worth defending. No comparison of course with the necessity to protect self and family from intruders, but somehow I can't see hiding in a corner and watching as they calmly carry off my struff.

If I hear a bump in the night, followed by sounds of intruders, I am going to assume they mean to do me or mine physical harm and the only warning they are going to get is the muzzle blast from my night sighted S&W model 4013 TSW as it discharges into their COM.

For clarification, I have no teenagers or small children to worry about and my wife is next to me in bed. No one else has any reason to enter my home at any time, especially in the middle of the night. Oh. and yes I will call 911 just as soon as the situation is controlled.

JPM

 

[TechBrute]

Every time this subject comes up, I wonder if I am the only member who feels that personal items I have worked to pay for are worth defending.

[not a personal attack]
To put it quite bluntly, I have insurance and would just as soon avoid the emotional baggage that comes with shooting and killing someone. I would not hesitate to kill someone who poses a physical threat to my family, but I have no desire to shoot someone over my stereo, TV, or DVDs. Would you kill someone over any personal item, no matter how inexpensive, or do you have a certain dollar value that you draw the line at?
[/not a personal attack]

 

[Nazirite]

Get your 870 and give them the Scottish War Cry from Braveheart or the yell Arnold used in Predator.

 

[fix]

Would you kill someone over any personal item, no matter how inexpensive, or do you have a certain dollar value that you draw the line at?

Yes, but the retention of personal possessions is not the main reason. The main reason is that I feel it is a duty of all good citizens to put a stop to these shenanigans without resorting to vigilante justice. If the shooting can be justified, I will take the shot rather than allow my fellow citizens to be subjected to the activities of such scum in the future. The intruder made a choice, and I will feel no guilt for being the vessel that brings the consequences of his/her poor decision to them. Criminals are emboldened when they meet with success. When they meet death, they are stopped. When their fellow criminals hear of their demise they are discouraged.

Today's unarmed burglar is tommorrow's armed home invader.

 

[Sleuth]

"Today's unarmed burglar is tommorow's armed home invader."

WOW There is a conclusion without any basis.

With no threat of death or serious bodily harm, shooting is not justified. Mere presence is not justification. So, you have publicly stated that you will kill anyone who enters your home. OK, fine, that's your position. Talk to us after you have to sell all your guns and your home to pay your lawyer to defend your killing an unarmed 12 year old with your blender in his hand. What will you have to sell to defend the civil lawsuit?

We all get to make choices, hopefully informed choices. Like it or not, there are consequences for choosing poorly.

 

[fix]

So, you have publicly stated that you will kill anyone who enters your home.

WOW There is a conclusion without any basis.

 

[Sleuth]

fix, I have spent enought time in court as an expert witness on use of force to know just how your post will read to a jury. The fact that you do not like what you posted does not change the facts that in a public medium, you have stated you will shoot anyone who enters your home, and consider it a "public duty".

Use of deadly force is only justified when you or others are threatened with death or seriuos bodily injury. Anything else is the vigilate justice you claim to oppose, yet are ready to carry out.

 

[fix]

I have spent enought time in court as an expert witness on use of force to know just how your post will read to a jury.

Good for you.

you have stated you will shoot anyone who enters your home

I'd love to see that quote.


I don't know what your position is on this matter, but one would assume that you fall into the "let them take what they want" crowd. Sorry, but I'm not buying into that. If you follow that to it's logical conclusion then where does it lead? When they knock on your front door and say "Give me your TV" are you going to give it to them? I should think not. What if they state clearly that they are unarmed and intend to push you out of the way and take your TV? Are you going to run and hide under the bed? What am I supposed to do? Ask them politely to leave? Ask them if they are armed and trust their answer? I think not. Lawyers are free to do whatever they want...and they probably will, regardless of the circumstances. That is out of my control. I don't concern myself with such things. The security of my home and family is under my control, and that is my number one priority. I have no intention of allowing a stranger to roam freely about my home just because some folks are more concerned with the rights of the criminal rather than the victim.

 

[444]

This last topic is a deep subject and I certainly don't think I can do it justice, but for me, it runs much deeper than someone stealing my blender (I don't even own a blender).
This person invaded my home. It isn't about the stuff in the home. It is about the idea that I believe I am entitled to safety in my own home. My home is a refuge from the world. I expect privacy and security. This person has viloated both these things. If I can't feel secure in my own home, there is no where on earth that I am secure.
I also agree with the idea that each member of society is responsible to the other members of society to do what they can for that society. I have a book we used in high school about the US Constitution. It made the statement that no person in this country has more rights than anyone else. Originally everyone lended a hand to get done what needed to be done. If someone's home was on fire, there was no fire department to call; it was up to everyone to answer the call. As society became more civilized people began working at trades and didn't have time to do things like law enforcement or fire fighting so they hired other people to do this for them while they worked at their trade which provided goods and services for the other people who worked at different trades. In this case, someone is commiting a felony. By doing nothing about it, you are giving this person the opportunity to prey on other members of our society. And just because you hid and let him take your stuff and he didn't visit any violence on you, doesn't mean he didn't have every intention of it if you had tried to stop him. His next victim might not be so lucky. Again, it isn't about your personal possessions. It is about protecting the sanctity of your home. It is about your own self respect that you arn't just a victim and you don't just allow people to do with you and your property as they please. It is about doing your part to make our society safe. You don't need a badge to do this dispite the fact that our society has become a society of wimps afraid to stand up for themselves and what is right.

I am no lawyer and have never worked as an expert witness. But I have read numerous times that if someone invades your home, you have the right to assume he is there to do you harm. I am fairly certain that if someone is in your home uninvited in the middle of the night, that you don't have to have him make an obvious overt threat to your life before you are justified in shooting. I may be all wrong about this, but if I am, then a whole lot of other people are also.

 

[Sleuth]

444, It varies from state to state. IIRC, in New York (perhaps just in the City), you are required by the law to give way and exit your home before using deadly force. Other states have "home is your castle" laws, where you do not have to retreat before an invader.

In it's original guise, this thread was about racking a shotgun (and giving a warning) to a suspect inside your home. It has mutated into a discussion of one's "public duty" to eliminate housebrakers.

fix has apparently taken the "home is your castle" theory, and, based on his posts here, intends to shoot anyone in his home without his consent, without warning (if I have misstated his position, I'm sure he will correct me). I am suggesting that, based on my training and experience, which does included killing someone in self defense with all that entails, it is a last resort. Things are never as black and white as we would like.

fix, I will neither cower, nor shoot someone who is not posing a threat. I will subdue and apprehend those who enter and are not a threat, if safe and possible. I will force the retreat of those whom I cannot safely apprehend. I will shoot or otherwise disable those who pose a threat. Our society has decided that burglary (absent a threat of death) is not a capital offense. I agree with that. Murder and attempted murder in most states can be a capital offense. I agree with that as well.

Your choices may vary. So be it. You have reached your conclusions as suitable for you. I find mine suitable for me. I hope neither of us has to find out if we chose well or poorly. We can agree to disagree.

 

[fix]

Sleuth, I live in a state that pretty much sees things my way...fortunately. Like you, I don't look forward to ever putting that to the test. And yes, they'll have some warning...but they'd better not hesitate to get moving, and they'd better not be carrying anything on their way out.

 

[JPM70535]

Perhaps if I lived in the PR of Calif. NY, NJ, MD, MASS, or any of the other bastians of Liberalism, I might feel differently about my right to defend my home. Fortunately I have lived in 2 States that take a more reasonable view of homeowners rights. I live in the sunny state of Florida now after living in Louisiana. In La. the legislature passed what we called the "Shoot the Burglar Bill" In essence it reaffirmed that a mans home is his castle and its defense is not a crime. It went so far as to conclude that a homeowner would be justified in the use of deadly force tol stop an "ATTEMPTED" break in. (Shoot the BG as he tries to break down the door). Florida's laws are not as homeowner friendly, however in my years as a LEO here, I have never heard of an instance where a homeowner was prosecuted or even charged with a crime in a home invasion incident, and that is in essence what a burglary is.

The quote that todays unarmed burglar is tomorrows armed home invader is right on target IMO. Also as to the premise that no material possessions are worth the taking of a human life, we each must make that decision for ourselves. Personally, I stand by my earlier post, and won't lose any sleep over the demise of any Burglar/Home invader who has forcibly entered my home, and I certainly am not going to give him any warning that would betray my location.