Racking a pump shotgun, or other alerts

[JohnBiltz]

You have a problem with loaded ARs discharging while they are sitting untouched in your closet? If I were you, I'd get money back from Bubba, his trigger job sucks.

The people who make mine all put free floating firing pins in them. Yours don't? The ones I carried in the Army for twenty years were all like that too. With ARs and M16s your firing pin makes contact with the primer often, check your primer in that round you have chambered in your AR in the closet. It will have a dent in it from when you loaded it. It can go off if dropped. Or knocked over in your closet. A handful of guys were shot accidentally during Desert Shield doing things like getting on and off the backs of trucks.

I may not be the smartest guy in the world but I'm old enough to know just because a gun has a safety doesn't mean it can't go off if dropped. All safeties are not created equal. In the 80 manufacturers started putting things like firing pin blocks in guns. Most modern hand guns now are drop safe. I'm old enough to remember when that was not the case.

 

[JohnBiltz]

ARs don't have positive safeties? Who built yours?

Since the vast majority of HD shotguns have either crossbolt safeties or top safeties, the idea of leaving the chamber empty is kinda moot. Granted not every weapon has a safety.

I have read a few different pieces on this issue. The main arguments against racking the shotgun slide are as mentioned giving away your position. Other reasons are it gives the intruder a fight or flight response. They may run away or they may fight. And a gunfight inside a house is always fun...

If cocking a weapon is such a great deterrence then why don't military and police carry empty chambers? Its because when you need that weapon, you need it fast.

Really?

ARs have a free floating firing pin. Regardless of if the safety is on or not. As for shotguns and the military and police, that is just nonsense. You would be hard pressed to find a department that has cars with shotguns or ARs in them that allow a round to be chambered except if a threat is encountered. As for the military I've walked patrols in the Korean DMZ and not been allowed to chamber a round and then there is this:

http://www.schweinfurt.army.mil/documents/safety_alert_1mar2010.pdf

-snip-

1. Distribution:

a. This is an "Operational" Ground Precautionary Action (GPA) Message.
Commanders/Directors of Army Commands (ACOM)/Army Service Component Commands
(ASCC)/Direct Reporting Units (DRU), Army National Guard (ARNG), US Army Reserve
(USAR) Command, US Navy (USN), US Air Force (USAF), US Marine Corps (USMC) and
other Service Commanders and Responsible Offices will retransmit this message to
all subordinate Commanders/Activities within 24 hours of receipt and will, within
5 working days, acknowledge receipt by e-mail to
[email protected] or by telephoning DSN 273-2623, Commercial
(586)239-2623 or in writing to Commander, TACOM Life Cycle Management Command
(TACOM LCMC), ATTN: AMSTA-LCL-MPM, 6501 E. 11 Mile Rd., Warren, MI 48397-5000.

b. Commanders/Directors of Army Commands (ACOM)/Army Service Component
Commands (ASCC)/Direct Reporting Units (DRU), Army National Guard (ARNG), US Army
Reserve (USAR) Command, other Service Commanders and other Responsible Offices,
will also track and report compliance of this message for all subordinate
Commands/Activities to: Mr. Engels Arias DSN 793-5951/COMM 309-782-5951 email:
[email protected] no later than: 30 Days from date of this message.

2. Problem:

a. Summary of Problem: During drop testing of the M26 Modular Accessory
Shotgun System (MASS) accidental discharge of the Mossberg M500/M590 and
Remington M870 shotguns was experienced. The loaded weapons were found to
possibly fire upon being dropped muzzle first. This occurred even when the
safety was on.


b. Expected results if failure occurs: If these shotguns are dropped muzzle
first with a loaded round in the chamber, they may fire, causing injury to
personnel within close range.

3. User Actions:

a. Technical References:

(1) Technical Manual (TM) 9-1005-338-13&P, Technical Manual, Unit and
Direct Support Maintenance Manual, including Repair Parts and Special Tools for
the Mossberg 12-Gauge Shotgun, Model 500 and Mossberg 12-Gauge Shotgun, Model
590. May 2005

(2) Technical Order (TO) 11W3-6-2-1, Technical Manual Intermediate
Maintenance Instructions with Illustrated Parts Breakdown for the Military
Shotgun 12-Gauge Pump Action Model 870.

b. Maintenance Levels: All maintenance levels.

c. Corrective Actions: The intent of this GPA is to prevent future
accidents by informing users to not chamber a round in these shotguns until they
are ready to fire.

(1) Mark up the reference Technical Manuals with the following warning:

WARNING

Operators should not chamber a round into the shotgun until they are ready to
fire. Accidental discharge and injury could occur from dropping the shotgun in
the muzzle down position.

(2) Place a copy of this GPA message inside the front cover of your TM 9-
1005-338-13&P, until you receive the revised TM/TO.

4. Unit Commanders:

a. Commanders shall distribute and ensure compliance of this message in
accordance with paragraph 1.b.

b. Contact your local TACOM LCMC Logistics Assistance Representative (LAR) or
your State Surface Maintenance Manager upon receipt of this message for
assistance. For assistance in locating your TACOM LCMC LAR, see paragraph 7c.

5. TACOM LCMC/PM actions: The above warning will be added to TM 9-1005-338-13&P,
Change 3, and should be available third quarter of FY2010.

 

[Ehtereon11B]

I have done a demo more than a dozen times with an M16A2 with a loaded, chambered round. Full magazine for kicks and the safety on. I have thrown said rifle around an empty parking lot for 20 minutes to demonstrate that it won't fire. That is a positive safety.

Korean DMZ is one thing. OEF is another. Always had a chambered round even with the Moss 12s. Even our Dynacorp civilians carried shotguns with a round chambered.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I have done a demo more than a dozen times with an M16A2 with a loaded, chambered round. Full magazine for kicks and the safety on. I have thrown said rifle around an empty parking lot for 20 minutes to demonstrate that it won't fire. That is a positive safety.

No a positive safety is something that blocks the firing pin from connecting with the primer. A M16 has a safety that keeps the hammer from falling and striking a free floating firing pin that will then strike a primer igniting. There is nothing that prevents that same firing pin from going forward and striking the primer.

I'm now sitting here arguing with someone who throws a loaded gun around a parking lot in front of an audience to demonstrate safety...

I think I'm done with this.

 

[45_auto]

I have thrown said rifle around an empty parking lot for 20 minutes to demonstrate that it won't fire.

Doesn't say much about your intelligence or the intelligence of your audience ....

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The people who make mine all put free floating firing pins in them. Yours don't?

Yes, but my firing pins all obey the laws of physics. I have yet to have one leap upwards of it's own volition and set off a round. Now, if something were to cause my house to leap upwards with such velocity that it correspondingly caused the AR-15, and thus it's firing pin to launch upwards.. and set off a round... then we might be seriously talking about the dangers of storing an AR-15 with a loaded chamber. Honestly, I think we might be talking more about how holy ****, planet earth just tried to kill me.

Same with cars. Little bumps in the road are not enough to launch your AR-15s firing pin with enough force to reach a rounds primer, much less touch it off... that is, unless you car just fell off a cliff and impacted at just the proper angle. Again, I don't think the AR-15 discharging will be the biggest issue of the day...

 

[SKLFCO]

OP'S question" Why would you not want someone to know you are armed,"
My answer is simple. I want every advantage possible.

 

[Sav .250]

Racking a round into the chamber of a shotgun and using the "sound" as a partial deterent, only seems a positive action by the Racker. Certainly the sound can`t be heard all thru the house. In stead of of playing around with,"Hey buddy, Did you hear that? Your in trouble now." Either keep it loaded,safety on or empty chamber and load after the pert breaks in.
Guys that use pistols or auto`s where there is no sound to speak of better get a recording of a Shotgun being "racked." That way from a mental stand-point you`ll feel some what safer. J s/n.

 

[Ed4032]

The only time the bad guy will hear me rack the slide is because I just shot his buddy and am fix'n to shoot him.

 

[Skribs]

I don't keep the round chambered in my long guns, but that has nothing to do with wanting the sound. It has to do with the fact that for me, I think the safest way of storing them with quick access (especially because my first long gun was a pump gun with the safety on the "wrong" side for a lefty) is "cruiser ready". The CHK-CHK is just a side effect.

I agree with other posters, I do not feel any need to warn someone. I live in a condo where only 6 families share a locked outside door. Someone would have to break into 2 different doors (or one of my neighbors, which I highly doubt, would have to break into 1) to get in. They shouldn't be surprised to be met with hostility by the homeowner.

For those who don't own a pump shotty, your average office stapler, opened and closed real quick, will make the CHK-CHK sound.

 

[paramedic70002]

Way back in the late 80s, I worked armed security with an empty chambered Mossberg 500 as backup. In the two occasions I had to rack the shotgun against an intruder on the property, I gained instant compliance and/or flight from three subjects and I think I may have smelt something unpleasant coming from their trousers. YMMV.

 

[Texan Scott]

Rack the action to chamber a shell; do this only if necessary. This is the only logical function of the action. Racking the action for any reason other than necessity is illogical and foolish; if it is actually necessary, its necessity trumps all other considerations.

 

[mljdeckard]

In my previous marriage, I kept the chamber empty, because I have one child who is autistic and highly curious and meddlesome. I can't trust him to leave stuff alone. When I was there, I kept the chamber empty and the slide locked, but it was to limit the danger to him, not to be able to use the racking effect to scare a bad guy. Being divorced, remarried, and with a different household situation, and I either have no kids in the house, or only well-conditioned boys who don't mess with guns. I now keep it loaded and chambered.

 

[USAF_Vet]

I think the sound of a shotgun slide is a myth propogated by the same types of people who claim the .45 ACP will kill a man just by hitting him in the thumb, or the .50BMG can kill you with just the shock wave.

I keep my 12 gauge cruiser ready only because it isn't my primary HD gun. My 9mm at my bedside is chambered with the safety on.

The sound is not a reliable deterant.

 

[powder]

It's for Hollywood and your funeral to come. Simple as that.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Frightening and intimidating some teenagers that likely had no ill-intent is a far cry from putting an end to a life-threatening situation involving a criminal element. Save the slide racking for your teenage daughter's dates and stick to only business when it comes to defending yourself.

Not everyone agrees with you Risky....

http://forums.officer.com/t139276/

Some think it works, some do not.

Just make sure you are POINTING the shotgun at them when you rack (and KYFFOTFT.)

Deaf

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Maybe it's just me but 41 post on this subject seem to equal:

 

[Texan Scott]

I bet those storm troopers miss that horse about 99 out of 100 swings...

 

[mljdeckard]

(I own a whole division of Lego Stormtroopers.

 

[crazyjennyblack]

I've racked a pumpgun once with a deterrent effect. I was about 15 and I was home alone. Some young hooligans (14 to 18-ish) were on the front yard and one of them knocked on the door. I looked through the peephole and saw that he was holding his hand like he was hiding something and one of his buddies had a pipe... so I got my dad's shotgun out of the closet and chambered a round, just in case they tried to break in.

The sound had a great effect, as the one at the door called to his buddies "$#!^ they've got a gun!" and they ran away very quickly.

I wouldn't advise using the noise alone for a deterrent and I personally don't leave guns with an empty chamber, but it worked for me once and I guess there's some merit to it.

 

[Dave P.]

If somebody is outside my home trying to gain entry I'll
yell a verbal warning about bad things happening to them if
they don't bail.
If somehow they're already in the house when I become
aware ( I doubt it with the alarm and good locks ) I don't
think I'm risking a warning.
Defense guns have chambered rounds in our house.
Dave

 

[Ledgehammer]

How do you even know they heard it or will hear it? Do you rack it again just in case they sneezed while you were performing the ultimate intimidation lol???
Especially outside of your door or window? It's not that loud.. Do you wait until everyone's quiet and then rack it? It's just silly.

 

[conw]

I agree Ledge.

If you wait until someone is within ear shot that seems a bit late. On the other hand if you over-rely on it (and I agree, it's not as distinctive or loud as some people seem to think) you may pass up a good opportunity for another type of warning that might be more effective.

 

[kingcheese]

Letting someone you may have to use a gun on know that you have a gun would be kinda like playing poker and showing your hand, once they know you got a gun its time to make a decision, be confident of your skills but never assume your gun is really an advantage

 

[Ehtereon11B]

Doesn't say much about your intelligence or the intelligence of your audience ....

How high road of you. When you train people who will be jumping out of aircraft, swimming, running, climbing over walls, and banging around vehicles with loaded weapons to be safe and comfortable around loaded weapons my strategy works. And I was being supervised by 2 ODAs so must have been doing something right.