Do you REALLY want to rack a shotgun when you hear a bump in the night?
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Moparmike
Member
OMG! Its the thread that would not die!
Vapor63
Member
Who uses pump nowaday's anyway? With my Beretta A390 20 gauge I have 4 rounds ready as fast as I can pull the trigger. If someones in my house I probably would take a bat too, so if they don't have a gun I'm free to beat the everlasting <insert bodily fluid or secretion> out of them untill the cops get there. That way theres less paperwork and they will be the ones who need some psychological help afterwards. They probably won't be able to watch baseball without flinching after that. If you have the oppurtunity to make the best out of pretecting your house and teach someone to move to the other side of the country, why not? 
fix
Member
DIE DIE DIE!!!
Damn thread!
Damn thread!
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
What I have really enjoyed about this thread is the fact that so many people feel that the sound of a racked shotgun is going to send the bad guy running home to mommy. This assumes that the bad guy is scared of the shotgun, hears the rack, and would react in a logic scared rabbit manner. All three of these assumptions may be fatal flaws.
We have all read the accounts where bad guys are hopped up on speed, cocaine, angel dust, etc., some maybe not having slept for days (literally), and who do not have an active grasp on reality. While they might be scared when not stoned, the sound of the shotgun racking may draw their attention to you, be ignored, or incite range. Heck, they may hear the sound and in their mental state, the sound might be believed so facet of their hallucination they are currently experiencing while in your home and not be recognized as the sound of a threatening shotgun.
Bottom line, you can't count on bad guys to behave in rational manners and many will behave in manners that are counterintuitive.
We have all read the accounts where bad guys are hopped up on speed, cocaine, angel dust, etc., some maybe not having slept for days (literally), and who do not have an active grasp on reality. While they might be scared when not stoned, the sound of the shotgun racking may draw their attention to you, be ignored, or incite range. Heck, they may hear the sound and in their mental state, the sound might be believed so facet of their hallucination they are currently experiencing while in your home and not be recognized as the sound of a threatening shotgun.
Bottom line, you can't count on bad guys to behave in rational manners and many will behave in manners that are counterintuitive.
Well said, DNS. If they made wise and well thought out decisions they would'nt be in your house. If they are that frightened by a sound, my wife's snoring should them scampering, as no human should be able to make those noises.
Has anyone pointed out that the typical pump gun is'nt drop safe? By "premature erackulation" you are really limited in what you can do with the gun in your mitts, plus ounces away from a discharge on a much more touchy trigger than the typical AR or handgun.
Has anyone pointed out that the typical pump gun is'nt drop safe? By "premature erackulation" you are really limited in what you can do with the gun in your mitts, plus ounces away from a discharge on a much more touchy trigger than the typical AR or handgun.
DNS,
We've all read accounts where the DEA or FBi or whoever gets the address wrong and ends up breaking in on some innocent couple. Imagine racking the shotgun in that situation.
But really, criminals are generally not so stupid as to lose life preserving instincts. Most criminals are more afraid of getting shot by homeowners than getting arrested by police. Thus signalling that the homeowner is armed and ready will (and people here have had direct experience with that) likely lead to a hasty departure by said criminal in search of easier prey.
We've all read accounts where the DEA or FBi or whoever gets the address wrong and ends up breaking in on some innocent couple. Imagine racking the shotgun in that situation.
But really, criminals are generally not so stupid as to lose life preserving instincts. Most criminals are more afraid of getting shot by homeowners than getting arrested by police. Thus signalling that the homeowner is armed and ready will (and people here have had direct experience with that) likely lead to a hasty departure by said criminal in search of easier prey.
OK you got one...
This has come up before, and Me having all the information available from the source went asking.
out of all the Inmates I asked who had committed a burglary, assault, misc other crimes. ALL stated that the sound of a shotgun racking would cause them to drop whatever they where doing and find the nearest exit.
More then 1 stated that he committed his burglaries while the people are at home, because of the adrenalin rush they got while doing it, and getting away with it.
1 stated that if there where a home alarm system that sounded like a shotgun racking it would be effective.
1 stated that you shouldn't go looking for them because he had an assault charge added to his burglary charge after the homeowner confronted him at close range with a shotgun, and had it taken away.
All in all, the response was the same, drop everything and find the nearest exit.
Some where high when they committed their crimes, some were not, but all said that their senses where heightened, especially their hearing, some even said that just the sound of a slide racking on an automatic would be enough or a hammer cocking. But the sound of the shotgun racking would definitely get their attention.
SapperLeader
Member
To me, the question of do I rack the shotgun as Loudly as I can, or do I quitely rack it, depends on the situation. If I plan to stay in a static positon, locked in the room, or scare away the intruder whos stilltrying to break in, I will probally rack the shotgun and issue some verbal commands. If Im on one floor, realize there is a intruder in the house, and want to get to my family first, I will probally quitely make the gun ready, and then round up the family. I have two scenarios where I though something bad was coming. The first was someone prowling around the backdoor. I racked the gun as loud as I could, and then listend to the rustling noises as the someone ran away(turned out to be a dog). THe other time, I came home to a unlocked but closed door. That time I quitely racked the gun, and investigated the house. Both times were benign, but I adjusted my tactics accordingly. Dont get stuck in a rut, and do whichever one you feel most comfortable with, and let this thread die!
bcochran
Member
tactics? fundamentals?
Tactics are the application of fundamentals to the situation.
There is some value in setting up hypothetical situations and running through them mentally
When you read the responses, you observe that that people can and should insert some other variables into the situation.
I would like to add another dimension of consideration.
The tatics described by the posting are only sound and viable to the extent that the fundamentals have been mastered. The fundamentals include
a few full dress rehearsla - this is called repetition
learning to load a shotgun in the dark without looking at the shotgun or the round
learning to locate the cell phone in the dark
learning to shoot in low light and near darkness without a flashlight or other target indicator
knowing how to clear rooms and behind objects.
I can poke some fun at myself. I thought I was prepared for the last earthquake, until it hit a 4 am, there was broken glass on the kitchen floor and I had no idea where a working flashlight was (and I had 6). Or the various training classes in which I failed to fully seat a magazine or chamber a round and tried to run a course.
So, you actually need to run through the scenario before you conclude that your are ready to implement your tactic.
Tactics are the application of fundamentals to the situation.
There is some value in setting up hypothetical situations and running through them mentally
When you read the responses, you observe that that people can and should insert some other variables into the situation.
I would like to add another dimension of consideration.
The tatics described by the posting are only sound and viable to the extent that the fundamentals have been mastered. The fundamentals include
a few full dress rehearsla - this is called repetition
learning to load a shotgun in the dark without looking at the shotgun or the round
learning to locate the cell phone in the dark
learning to shoot in low light and near darkness without a flashlight or other target indicator
knowing how to clear rooms and behind objects.
I can poke some fun at myself. I thought I was prepared for the last earthquake, until it hit a 4 am, there was broken glass on the kitchen floor and I had no idea where a working flashlight was (and I had 6). Or the various training classes in which I failed to fully seat a magazine or chamber a round and tried to run a course.
So, you actually need to run through the scenario before you conclude that your are ready to implement your tactic.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
The Rabbi, THANK YOU, SIR for providing a classic example of the flawed reasoning I was talking about. Your notion that bad guys aren't so stupid to lose life preserving skills is a naive assumption that you are gambling on with your life if you encounter one.
How smart or dumb some bad guy is can be completely irrelevant when the bad guy has been so stoned for too long, gone without sleep while being stoned, or is in the middle of a hallucination that his life preserving skills may not get implemented because he no longer has the ability to recognize dangers in a manner that a normal, not stoned, and rational person would be able to recognize them.
Various stimulants, angel dust, and/or other hallucination-inducing chemicals can give a person the sensation or belief that they are super human and in the process, they lose their ability to fear. Some actually materialize super human qualities of strength (ask cops who have wrestled with a person on PCP).
Sure, most of the time the home intruder with which you will be dealing is probably not going to be totally wacked out such that he has lost all control over reality, but some will. The thing is, you don't know which you will be getting, do you?
By analogy, the training of most cops is not sufficient for dealing with highly skilled, overly prepared, or ambush first bad guys. Day in and day out, they typically deal with a lot of punks, crack heads, drunk drivers, etc. Great, so most of the time, they have no trouble remaining in charge and handling situations. Sadly, when they do encounter an opponent that is overly skilled, overly prepared, or who will ambush the cop without provocation, the cops tend to lose out pretty severely even if they are eventually sucessful in the end. A lot of cops get injured, crippled, and/or killed in these sorts of situations.
Bottom line: You can't count on the person invading your home to be scared of you or your noisy shotgun.
Never underestimate your opposition and know that you can't count on your opposition to react in a manner thay YOU think is the proper manner in which to react.
How smart or dumb some bad guy is can be completely irrelevant when the bad guy has been so stoned for too long, gone without sleep while being stoned, or is in the middle of a hallucination that his life preserving skills may not get implemented because he no longer has the ability to recognize dangers in a manner that a normal, not stoned, and rational person would be able to recognize them.
Various stimulants, angel dust, and/or other hallucination-inducing chemicals can give a person the sensation or belief that they are super human and in the process, they lose their ability to fear. Some actually materialize super human qualities of strength (ask cops who have wrestled with a person on PCP).
Sure, most of the time the home intruder with which you will be dealing is probably not going to be totally wacked out such that he has lost all control over reality, but some will. The thing is, you don't know which you will be getting, do you?
By analogy, the training of most cops is not sufficient for dealing with highly skilled, overly prepared, or ambush first bad guys. Day in and day out, they typically deal with a lot of punks, crack heads, drunk drivers, etc. Great, so most of the time, they have no trouble remaining in charge and handling situations. Sadly, when they do encounter an opponent that is overly skilled, overly prepared, or who will ambush the cop without provocation, the cops tend to lose out pretty severely even if they are eventually sucessful in the end. A lot of cops get injured, crippled, and/or killed in these sorts of situations.
Bottom line: You can't count on the person invading your home to be scared of you or your noisy shotgun.
Never underestimate your opposition and know that you can't count on your opposition to react in a manner thay YOU think is the proper manner in which to react.
Sleuth
Member
Double O, lets examine this closely:
A. Completely wacked out burglar has enough control to break into my home, but does not react as expected to the sound of me putting one up the spout. I now have given a 'verbal warning (oh, you thought I had to say something?), and have a loaded, off safe shotgun pointed at the BG. What have I lost?
B. Usual burglar - you know, the kind that kd7ctv interviewed, breaks into my home. I rack my 870, and he bails out, leaving me in peace, and most of what he tried to steal behind. Problem solved without firing a shot. What have I lost?
And, beside the fact that police officer training is irrelevant to this thread, how does one become "overly trained"? I've been training for 40 years, and I'm certainly not 'overly trained'.
A. Completely wacked out burglar has enough control to break into my home, but does not react as expected to the sound of me putting one up the spout. I now have given a 'verbal warning (oh, you thought I had to say something?), and have a loaded, off safe shotgun pointed at the BG. What have I lost?
B. Usual burglar - you know, the kind that kd7ctv interviewed, breaks into my home. I rack my 870, and he bails out, leaving me in peace, and most of what he tried to steal behind. Problem solved without firing a shot. What have I lost?
And, beside the fact that police officer training is irrelevant to this thread, how does one become "overly trained"? I've been training for 40 years, and I'm certainly not 'overly trained'.
What is lost is:
The flexibility of being able move dynamically with the shotgun charged. With the typical shotgun and a round in the chamber it is akin to covering someone with a cocked revolver or a SA auto-pistol off safe. You are ounces of pressure away from a discharge and the gun is not drop- or strike-safe. Charging the shotgun should'nt be done until it is reasonable to think that the gun will be fired, not when it is thought that the gun may be fired. I can chamber a round while I am mounting the gun to a firing position and determining the identity of the target. Charging it before it needs to be fired gains nothing of value (Of course it needs to be charged before firing - I mean before the decision to fire has been made)
Using a shotgun for defense is not the same as fighting with the shotgun or the sporting use of the shotgun. Charging the chamber before yelling "pull" presumes that the gun is gonna be fired and you will not trip or get knocked down at the line.
Why did this get started again?
The flexibility of being able move dynamically with the shotgun charged. With the typical shotgun and a round in the chamber it is akin to covering someone with a cocked revolver or a SA auto-pistol off safe. You are ounces of pressure away from a discharge and the gun is not drop- or strike-safe. Charging the shotgun should'nt be done until it is reasonable to think that the gun will be fired, not when it is thought that the gun may be fired. I can chamber a round while I am mounting the gun to a firing position and determining the identity of the target. Charging it before it needs to be fired gains nothing of value (Of course it needs to be charged before firing - I mean before the decision to fire has been made)
Using a shotgun for defense is not the same as fighting with the shotgun or the sporting use of the shotgun. Charging the chamber before yelling "pull" presumes that the gun is gonna be fired and you will not trip or get knocked down at the line.
Why did this get started again?
sendec's analysis is exactly correct, as it centers on our actions and not the BG's. You cannot predict what the BG will or will not do. Even the BG does not know what he will or will not do. The point is to be ready for any contingency. Leaving a shotgun with one in the pipe is not a safe practice, IMHO, when *RACK* *BANG* is so easy and quick.
DNS,
Your post typiifed the "must be ready for everything" mindset. Sure, what you say is possible. But it is so unlikely as to be in the remotest of remote possibilities and probably not worth considering for very long.
But we have had statements from fairly reliable people plus common sense, and if none of that will persuade you then nothing I could say would either.
Your post typiifed the "must be ready for everything" mindset. Sure, what you say is possible. But it is so unlikely as to be in the remotest of remote possibilities and probably not worth considering for very long.
But we have had statements from fairly reliable people plus common sense, and if none of that will persuade you then nothing I could say would either.
cracked butt
Member
Ok, what's going to be scarier to vermin in the house: a shotgun being racked or a bolt slamming shut on an M1 or M1A?
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