Energy fears looming, new survivalists prepare

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QUOTE: "Bottom line =we have to reduce the Population of the earth Fundies Will have to Allow Birth control -every kid is another mouth sukking the oil nipple !The alternitive is overpopulation and massive war."

Welcome to the 21st century, there's just one catch.

You do realize that people are dying by the hundred thousands in Floods, Earthquakes, Cyclones, Tornados,Wars, disease & Famines. ( didn't I read a book that predicted this?) all over the world?

I doubt very seriously over population is gonna be our major problem.
 
Just the first article I found on a quick google search.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=59991

I have heard this before, years ago. I believe some of the wells in western PA which were said to have been pumped dry have all of a sudden become full, problem is NIMBY is keeping them from being opened and pumped again.
I also believe they said the North Slope (original strike) was only going to last 10 years, lets see, it is over 30 now and still pumping.
 
There is always a disaster coming, it's always fatal, the world ends ten minutes later and it's due to the carefully crafted plans of the illuminati, The Trilateral Commission, or low fourth grade math scores.
There's some insight I agree with. I think we have a natural urge to find something to worry about.

I mean, when a dinosaur dies, minerals are leached into their bones to become fossils--which is rock. You line a fire pit with rocks and they don't "catch fire."

And as an archaeologist digs out a site, why isn't there some form of "goo" still residing around the fossil?
I don't mean this in any insulting way but I think if you were truly interested in answers you need to dig a little more into the science. The decomposition of plant and animal matter into hydrocarbons isn't a particularly amazing event. Most of us are probably most familiar with the process in the generation of methane. You can burn rocks that are made in a way that preserve the "burnable" part of the rock, we call it coal.
 
1) archaeologists do not dig up dinosaurs; that's palaentologists. We archaeoogists study humans and pre-modern human species through material culture. It's perhaps a minor difference to an outsider, akin to full auto vs. semi auto...

2) not all dinosaurs turned to fossils, just some. It takes certain special conditions for that to happen.

3) Not all life that was around tens of millions of years ago was dinosaurs; complex, multi-trillion celled animals were a late development.
 
We are not running out of fuel and the world is not being over populated. We know where more fuel is now then ever before. The population of most industrialized countries is on the decline and in and stable in half of the third world countries. We can grow more food then ever before and we are not even close to maxing out on food.

When gas was cheap was when the oil companies owned 70% of the know oil and governments owned 30%. Now that has been reversed and governments own 70% of the oil reserves and look at prices now. The only reasons that there is world hunger is because of governments, just watch the news and any where that there is starvation I can show you a repressive government. Any where there are fuel shortages, I can show you a repressive government. Any where there is a massive population growth, I can show you a repressive government.

If govenments would stay out of our lives, we all would be in a much better position.
 
Let us know if any of you guys want to be the first to leave

Nobody wants to be the first to go...but the fact remains that overpopulation IS a major problem...if you can't see it for yourself...just google the census bureau ...the population of THIS COUNTRY has doubled since 1980.
 
IMO, The carrying capacity of this planet is way over what it should be for humans. It is artificially inflated due to cheap fossil fuels and the enginuity that we have been endowed with.

I don't believe we can sustain our level of comfort and globalization much longer. I believe we are on the down-swing and the article that this thread is based on hit the nail squarely on the head.

Those people are way ahead of the curve and will have the best chance of survival. Unless roving hoardes ruin it for them!
 
When I did my homesteading adventure a few years ago, I found myself MORE reliant on fuel supplies. Indeed, the folks out there I still keep in touch with are all hit very very hard by fuel prices.

For example, as recently as 2003 I could pick up a 5 gallon drum of pearl kerosene for $13 on sale. A decade earlier it was even cheaper. That's enough to keep a cabin heated for awhile. Diesel was only $1.50 a gallon, and we still considered it expensive. These prices have all gone way up. The same containers of kerosene go for $35 now, and diesel has doubled on the road system and gone up even more in the bush. These fuel prices are causing prices for everything else to spike.

In short, I don't think this is a good time to try to break loose and go off grid. The costs are simply way too high. The "homesteads" of the new era are small houses or apartments close to work. I'm doing much better financially now, and I'm better prepared for an emergency. Out there I was totally reliant all winter on a very tenuous link to the high price end of civilization. My own infrastructure was barely fit to store dry food in. Now I've cut my ties to the automobile and consequently save many thousands of dollars a year. No more $100 a month on insurance, no fuel costs, no parking fees, no outrageous repair costs. To me, that's the future homestead. A car free lifestyle close to work with a vegetable plot and a big freezer.
 
I think one of the most realistic SHTF scenarios is an economic collapse & soaring crime rates. When & if that happens I think the authorities ( if they don't simply abandon their posts alá Katrina) will have their hands full dealing W/ the cities. Rural areas will be on their own & I don't see the "roving hordes" getting all that far out of the cities. Certainly I don't see them walking up into the mountains to find my home.

Larry Burkette recomends in his book The Coming Economic Earth Quake that the safest place to be is OUT of the cities.

I don't think these guys are that far off the mark.
 
I also believe they said the North Slope (original strike) was only going to last 10 years, lets see, it is over 30 now and still pumping.

I don't know who said it was only going to last 10 years. People made all kinds of crazy predictions during the runup. The fact is the production has been slowly falling off for a long time now, and is now only a small fraction what it was in the 1970's. This is why we're building a natural gas pipeline to shift to that production as the oil runs out.

More than 15 billion barrels have moved through the Trans Alaska Pipeline System since start up in 1977. The volume of oil flowing through the pipeline has decreased from a peak of 2.1 million barrels per day (mbpd) in 1988 to about 740,000 bpd in 2007.

http://www.alyeska-pipe.com/about.html

As an economic principle, we will never reach the "last gallon" of oil. It will always be a cost-benefit question, and there are sources in the deep sea that require enormous outlays and risks to get to. I have no doubt we will get to more of these, but I also have no doubt that as we do THE PRICE will keep going UP. That's the nature of the beast. We're not out of the age of fossil fuels, we're leaving the age of CHEAP fossil fuels. Peak oil as they call it. So from here on out everything linked to petroleum is going to get more expensive. And EVERYTHING is linked to petroleum.

In hindsight, I expect the progress of the 20th century will be viewed as an anomaly caused by use of the vast planetary battery. True, we can make more fuel from crops. We can get energy from the sun or the ground. But it's an expensive affair that takes resources from elsewhere and produces only a slight net gain in power. We're moving from AC to DC. Get used to it.
 
I don't understand how some of you can put "living off the land" and "still getting hit hard by fuel prices" in the same sentence...living off the land is just that..."living off the land"...and it can be done, thats how we settled this country...

So what if people think I'm strange when they see me riding my horse or my mule to work...they don't require insurance, they produce more gas than they burn, they eat grass (lawn mower)...and with a top speed of around 45 mph (endurance trained)...they are fast enough for me.
 
Certainly I don't see them walking up into the mountains to find my home.

If I were you I'd be much more worried about whether the power, phone and repair crews will keep coming up the mountain to find your home. Or the price you'll have to pay for the privilege.

I don't understand how some of you can put "living off the land" and "still getting hit hard by fuel prices" in the same sentence...living off the land is just that..."living off the land"...and it can be done, thats how we settled this country...

Because everything you use to "live off the land" is coming from the petro-economy. Unless you have the manpower and know-how to revert to an Amish level of existence, you're still going to be running to town to get feed for the horses and straw. Which will all be going up in price. You'll still be relying on fuel to sew the crops. Again, which will be going up in price. You'll need fuel to heat the cabin and fuel to run the chainsaw. Vegetable plots and apple trees are great, but as always are vulnerable to the vagaries of nature. If you don't use modern fertilizer and insecticides it gets even harder. On top of all is the question of how you make a living. There are a few people with particular professions that don't require driving all the way back to the city to work, but they're rare and lucky. For most of us a move to a homestead means a brutal and outrageously expensive commute.

Consider the bush communities up here. Full of self-reliant people who subsist on local game and resources. But they still need fuel and modern supplies, and they're the latest pinch is hitting them harder than anyone else:

"There's a direct link to people moving away for economic reasons," said Rep. Mary Nelson, D-Bethel. "It's hard to have an economy without affordable energy."

The high cost of fuel is also choking subsistence, where it can cost $500 for a fishing trip in a skiff and make berry-picking by ATV too expensive, said Dale Smith, a former Mekoryuk resident who now works on rural energy issues for the First Alaskans Institute.

http://www.adn.com/rural/story/405344.html
 
Up here in Canada we're paying about 6.00 a gallon for gas (137.9 a litre), more for diesel. Nobody's rioting in the streets yet. Anybody from down there that's planning to drive to Alaska this summer had better fill up at the border. BC stands for "bring cash". :)
 
I believe some of the wells in western PA which were said to have been pumped dry have all of a sudden become full, problem is NIMBY is keeping them from being opened and pumped again.

Wow. I work for an oil company with a lot of wells in W. PA, and none of ours have become magically full. I get such a kick reading these paranoid rants about oil, and oil companies.
 
Because everything you use to "live off the land" is coming from the petro-economy. Unless you have the manpower and know-how to revert to an Amish level of existence, you're still going to be running to town to get feed for the horses and straw. Which will all be going up in price. You'll still be relying on fuel to sew the crops. Again, which will be going up in price. You'll need fuel to heat the cabin and fuel to run the chainsaw. Vegetable plots and apple trees are great, but as always are vulnerable to the vagaries of nature. If you don't use modern fertilizer and insecticides it gets even harder. On top of all is the question of how you make a living. There are a few people with particular professions that don't require driving all the way back to the city to work, but they're rare and lucky. For most of us a move to a homestead means a brutal and outrageously expensive commute.

Consider the bush communities up here. Full of self-reliant people who subsist on local game and resources. But they still need fuel and modern supplies, and they're the latest pinch is hitting them harder than anyone else:

Fuel for what...I plow the ground with the mules...I feed them hay and corn grown on that ground. (the seed for the corn is saved from the previous years crop...the same for tomatoes, watermelons, beans, peppers...the entire garden.)

And you had me in the floor laughing with the comment about fuel for a chainsaw...you ever heard of an axe or a handsaw.

I lived the first 17 years of my life "off the land"...I live off of it now to a large degree....and that degree is getting larger by the day.

You don't need pesticides and commercial fertilizer (horse **** works just fine) to grow a garden.

I don't need a gun to kill game for meat either...traps my friend...traps. (I have 193 of these)

Home heating...thats a good fur coat. The house I grew up in (and I'm just 35) had a fireplace in 1 room...meaning if you woke up in the morning and it was 10 degrees outside...it was 10 degrees inside too.

I have an uncle that has NEVER had electricity, indoor plumbing, or a car...he enjoys life.

EDIT: I'm not saying everybody can or will live like this...I know they won't.
I'm just trying to dispel a few myths that most seem to have about living off the land...
 
supply and demand

I think the "firearm" discussion ended in this thread long ago,,, but I love this subject so I'll dive in.

Peak oil is an interesting theory and it's also one I subscribe heavily to.

It's undeniable that the leaps and bounds of gains in modern society are mainly attributed to the combustion engine, lubricants, and the availability of cheap, plentiful oil and gasoline which is easy to pump, process, store, and burn. To put it in laymans' terms, we have replaced millions of man hours worth of labor for very little cost. To analogize, it would take a man 100s of hours to push an SUV 20 miles. But for just a couple of dollars, he can replace hundreds of man hours and drive the vehicle 20 miles in 10 minutes on a gallon of gas. In economic terms, this is a HUGE percentage of return on investment. Extrapolate this over the last 100 years of mankind, and it explains our unprecedented global wealth. We can move mountains, fly, travel to distant planets, etc. because of cheap oil and its' byproducts.

The idea of peak oil is that we have a finite amount of oil and we are at or near the peak of out ability to produce oil, in terms of a Bell Curve. Meanwhile, as our production peaks and naturally starts the downward trend of availability, other nations such as India and China increase their demand (which was formerly a lot lower).

It's true that we will likely never use the "last barrel" of oil, so to speak. But it's undeniable that as the remaining supply decreases, the demand for use will increase for selfish human and power reasons. And as the supply decreases and the demand increases, the price will double, tripple, quadruple, etc. until it becomes so cost prohibitive that most people cannot afford it and it becomes a significant luxury.

Once that happens, society will crumble because people aren't accustomed to going without - electricity, travel, flying, power, etc.

What happens to our economy when that $20,000 car in your driveway has no value and is a finanical loss? How about the boat in your garage? Your computer that you can't run very often? How about your daily commute to work - you lose your job because you cannot get there anymore. And your employer is going out of business anyway because he has no more walk-in customers. And what about the shipping industry? Truckers can no longer drive and businesses can no longer get their goods to market? It is a HUGE chain reaction.

The need to take steps to conserve is upon us... it's just a simple economic principle of supply and demand. Most people, though, just don't get it.

Look at the price of oil per barrel just in the last 20 years. It has spiked in the last couple years. That should tell you something. Oil did the same thing in the 70's, because the prediction was we were running low and there was an embargo. New technology was implemented, new oil was found, and all was great for awhile. Now we're at the same point. Will new technology save us? That is the million dollar question. But who will pay the price? And what if it doesn't?

Yes, we have other types of energy to supplement oil... but solar energy doesn't fly 747s. Hydroelectricity doesn't fuel earth moving equipment. Nuclear energy doesn't fuel 200,000,000 daily commuter cars. Wind energy won't fuel Abrams tanks. Corn byproducts won't lubricate engines and moving parts (or even your firearm- there, now it's firearms related :) ). And, each of these types of energy, while each have their merits, is MORE expensive than oil at this point and they won't be widely implemented until oil becomes more expensive.
 
And as the supply decreases and the demand increases, the price will double, tripple, quadruple, etc. until it becomes so cost prohibitive that most people cannot afford it and it becomes a significant luxury.

Once that happens, society will crumble because people aren't accustomed to going without - electricity, travel, flying, power, etc.
That seems to work on the premise that its more of an overnight event. Oil was cheap yesterday, today our cars sit in the drive way. Perhaps I'm a little too in love with science and the free market but I think that cost/benefit ratio of oil is why we're burning it up without great alternatives. As the cost of oil continues to increase the economic incentive to develop other options increases as well. At some point I think its logical to expect those lines to cross as as a newer technology takes market share it will become cheaper. Historically don't we usually use the cheaper resources and replace them as it becomes an economic necessity?
 
Hoo boy, I go out to do some yard work and come back to find this thread way OT. My original intent here was to brainstorm some strategies to get the "green" crowd to see things our way vis-a-vis the RKBA. The basic idea here is that, as things get tougher economically, we're all gonna have to be less reliant on a totally non-responsive government for everything, including personal protection. I didn't mean to start a debate about abiotic oil or off-grid living.

A few here have hit on a salient point, that getting off-grid isn't an option for most folks. With that in mind, maintaining our rights to protect ourselves would seem to be a key priority that goes along with "saving the planet". I don't care if global warming is true or not if we can use it as a lever to open some minds. Turn their own pet arguments to our advantage, so to speak.
 
As far as the living off the land thing goes, I don't think you guys are aware of the available technology. In my katrina closet I have a radio 2 lanterns and 3 flash lights that run off dynamo I have a solar powered cell phone charger & a gravity water purifier. I do have a stove & 2 heaters that run off of propane.

Wind turbine technology has advanced to a point where several people in Colorado are completely off the power grid and actually sell power back to the public utility company every month.

I think the point you're missing is that these people see this as something that IS going to happen weather we're prepared or not . I don't think they see it as some optional alternative life style, It is a hard life but people did it for thousands of years W/out all the technology that's available now.
 
Ridgerunner665, how are you sending us these messages?

I'm not saying we can't go back to hand axes and mules. I'm sure we will have to eventually. But that transition will entail a rather sharp decrease in the standard of living. If you and your family truly need no supplies from anywhere but your own acres you have it lucky. I don't know how you're getting power to type or how you heat your place in the winter, but I'm happy for you. I think you have to admit that living off the land divorced from the world is:

Extremely time consuming
Physically challenging
Reliant on the weather
Requires a large plot of land
Requires sufficient game resources and wild crops to turn to for supplements
Requires some means of preserving food without power
etc.
 
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