Energy fears looming, new survivalists prepare

[Match14]

With regards to the energy crisis, there is still quite a lot of fuel left in the world, it's just that we have used up/ or will soon have used up, the fuel that is easiest to find and extract.

Also have you guys been paying any attention to China and India? Just those two countries along make up about 1/3rd of the earth's population. Twenty years ago, few Chinese had cars as most were to poor. Since they now have jobs, largely due to our out sourcing, they have money to spend on things they could not have thought about in 1988. As India and China industrialize it will continue to drive up demand for oil and thus prices.
Oh and those economic stimulus checks, those are from borrowed money. Our nation's high debt is starting to make the dollar weak, which only compounds the fuel problems.

As for space travel, I don't think there will be any space colonies in my lifetime, and with me living the average lifespan, that wouldn't be until after 2050. The biggest hurdle, that I see for this is the amount of energy required to break the Earth's atmosphere and gravitational pull. Those huge Saturn rockets or whatever they use, cost so much that getting supplies up to space are very costly.

Well those are my thoughts. I wish you all a good Memorial Day.

 

[Walkalong]

.38 spl, .44 mag, .308, 7.62 X 39

Ar 15, Ak, Model 19, Python

Ruger, Smith

Just thought I would throw in some gun stuff.

I ain't skeered.

Me either. I can do all those things as well. Lots of friends in the country and my older son lives there already. The younger one can't wait to get there. We (wife & I) will end up there one day. Not long after the youngest is out of our direct care imagine.

 

[everallm]

Based on some of the comments I feel a sudden urge to make my fortune and buy stock in Alcoa....The tin foil hat consumption is obviously waaaaaay up...

 

[Sans Authoritas]

Bottom line =we have to reduce the Population of the earth Fundies Will have to Allow Birth control -every kid is another mouth sukking the oil nipple !The alternitive is overpopulation and massive war.

So help me... hasn't the Malthusian myth been suitably crushed yet? Malthus, in case you don't know, was the chicken little who thought that once the coal reserves dried up, that civilization would topple, and that within a few decades, there would not be enough food to feed the whole world. Another fun book to read is "The Population Bomb," by Paul Ehrlich. A widely-read, almost universally-accepted compendium of doomsday prophecies rooted in "overpopulation." All the intelligentsia quoted Erlich. And every one of his narrow, unrealistic ideas failed to transpire.

Foolishness. Humans are not some mere parasite race, living like a tick in the earth's flesh. Humans are dynamic, creative and opportunity-seeking beings. When firewood couldn't cut it anymore, and pumped too many pollutants into the air, coal entered the scene. When coal and whale oil gave out, petroleum stepped in. Farmers are producing exponentially greater amounts of food on less land than ever before due to technological advances. People are living longer than they have ever lived due to little things like sanitation, clean water, and having enough food.

What we need now, if I may be blasphemous to the god of contemporary culture, is more people. That way, we will discover newer and better technologies faster. Nuclear power should be used now, but the day is coming when efficient solar power and other clean alternative energy sources will be widely available.

You're thinking inside the box. The same box that contained the men who said, "How will we ever lubricate our fine machinery when the supply of whales has dried up?"

Long ago, the human race received a command. "Increase and multiply." Later on, it got another, essentially: "Don't worry about what you are to wear, and what you are going to eat. You will be provided for: does God not look after even the sparrows?"

You think that a high population density causes war? No. Men, especially men in government, cause war. You could put two people on a 10 square mile island, and they could pretend there was something just to fight about, and fight about it. Nor does a high population density cause poverty. India may be poor, yes... because their government is communist, and there is no respect for property rights, like in every other poor nation. Look a few hundred miles away, in Indonesia. A phenomenally high population density, and a ridiculously high per capita GDP, much like the city of Hong Kong, where the free market is still king, and all it takes to open a business is 5 minutes and $20.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Mr_Rogers]

Sans Authoritas
The government of India is not communist in the sense of totalitarian. It is democratically elected.
Indonesia is not a few hundred miles from India, it is over 2000 miles.
Hong Kong, as a part of China is nearer to communism than India.
Not all parts of Indonesia are rich - but the parts with oil are.
In the time you refer to, much more machinery was lubricated with animal fats than with whale oil.
Coal and oil took over as fuels after they were discovered. They were not discovered because the proceeding fuel was running out as you imply.

Otherwise, since I am not knowledgeable enough to argue religion, good post.

And, to keep this firearm related, you will note that India, China, Hong Kong, Indonesia and certainly the oil producing countries, have all been conquered and held by the power of firearms at least once in their existence. I am afraid, as Mao said, "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun".

 

[romma]

Some people that believe that society is totally impervious to unforseen circumstances or even forseen circumstances maybe need to look inside themselves and question how open their minds are.

Either way, what will be will be regardless.

To me it's as if people are sitting around trying to disprove the logic I believe in by trying to pin everything on waiting for the lights to go out, and gas to stop pumping all at once, total chaos all at once in other words.

I believe we are in a situation similar to a pot full of lobsters with the temperature going up one degree at a time oblivious to the encroaching disaster.

I do believe those that are armed with whatever type of survival mindset will be at the top of the food chain at least for a while..

 

[romma]

Long ago, the human race received a command. "Increase and multiply."

With all do respect to your beliefs, I think it may be time for a new command.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

The government of India is not communist in the sense of totalitarian. It is democratically elected.

Yes. Democratically elected socialists. A dictatorship of fools.

Hong Kong, as a part of China is nearer to communism than India.
Not all parts of Indonesia are rich - but the parts with oil are.

On average, they are infinitely richer than the Indians, because of a very capitalist system.

In the time you refer to, much more machinery was lubricated with animal fats than with whale oil.

They are relatively (compared to petroleum) inefficient and expensive resources that could have been better used elsewhere.

Coal and oil took over as fuels after they were discovered. They were not discovered because the proceeding fuel was running out as you imply.

I implied that the finds were when the supplies were running out. Such finds always happen when there is an increase in population, or else allow an increase in population.

And, to keep this firearm related, you will note that India, China, Hong Kong, Indonesia and certainly the oil producing countries, have all been conquered and held by the power of firearms at least once in their existence. I am afraid, as Mao said, "All political power comes from the barrel of a gun".

Mao was wrong. All political power (force, to Mao and many others) comes from enough people having wrong ideas backed up with the will to use those guns.

True and just political power comes from enough people sharing the same ideas: not the use of violence.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[Mr_Rogers]

True and just political power comes from enough people sharing the same ideas: not the use of violence.

Tell that to the Jews at Masada.
Tell it to the totality of countries that Alexander made a lifelong pastime of conquering.
Tell it to the number of countries that the Romans conquered.
Tell it to middle Europe when the Huns arrived.
Explain it to both sides in the Crusades.
Tell it to the French before and after the Revolution.

Remember the Magna Carta, the supposed basis of our freedom, was forced on King John by a bunch of his warlords.

I only wish that what you said was true.

 

[Sans Authoritas]

True and just.

And again, they weren't conquered simply by men with guns and no ideas. Nobody pulls that trigger or swings that sword without an idea in his head first.

If you are a good boss, (a leader) you do not need to yell at or coerce your employees. You will have chosen good employees from the beginning, and be able to use reason and voluntary contract to enforce your will. The power of being a boss does not come, in its essence, by yelling at employees. It comes by being the owner of a business, and having people of like mind working with you, voluntarily. That is true power. Anything else is simple violence.

-Sans Authoritas

 

[ozarkhillbilly]

Is it to much to assume that everyone that believes that the world is being overpopulated is a strong supporter of President Bush. Because if is weren't for wars we would really be in trouble. Is it also a safe bet to assume that you guys want to keep our troops fighting as long as possible to lesson the effects of overpopulation.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

Original Post

An interesting article in that it's in the "Green" section of Yahoo! News. The author treats the subject of having firearms to defend oneself and one's family as a matter of course without resorting to any kind of sensationalism. I don't want this to turn into another "what caliber for the starving hordes/survival thread", I merely post this reference as evidence that some in the media are beginning to see that firearms are useful tools rather than "Evil Instruments O' Death".

I do feel an undercurrent in the increase in the acceptance of firearms. People who I would label as distinctly green are learning to shoot. I actually had someone say to me recently that he wanted to bring some friends from his "artsy" office to start shooting, his words were "you won't believe it when you meet them but they are really keen". I wouldn't hold my breath on the Brady Bunch but I bet they are feeling pretty uncomfortable right now.

As far as the individual survivalist scenario goes my own feeling is that it is pretty badly thought out. Hey Survivalists, no matter how good you are, no matter what armory you own, you are not going to survive on your own. You have to go get water, you have to till the fields and harvest the crops. If anybody wants what you have that badly you are vulnerable. Much better to think of community cooperation.

Middle ages, feudalism, any volunteers?

 

[doc2rn]

To see where the problem of over population stems from we need to look at some demographics. With 2 billion chinese and 1.5 billion Indians I hardly think the 300 million currently residing in the US is the problem. What we need to be concerned about is the Asian theater that is burning through their natural resources at an unprecidented rate.

 

[Treo]

QUOTE : " I do feel an undercurrent in the increase in the acceptance of firearms. People who I would label as distinctly green are learning to shoot."

I'm not sure this is the right way to say this, but I believe that the rise in violent crime will do more to advance the cause of RKBA than anything we might do. As the fencesitters realize that the police are unable to protect them, they will demand an effective means of self defence.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

Doc2RN
Correct, if we may be a little self-centered, Asia is where the problem lies. Unfortunately, as they say "all politics is local" so we can't expect the Asian countries to stop their growth or limit their population to help us out. For their own purposes perhaps, but not for ours. We must assume the worst.

Asian populations will continue to increase, that increased population will insist on getting its share of the good life. The Asian countries will be purchasing energy on the World market, the country that pays the most wins the auction. Either we do not get the energy or we pay increased prices. Either way - bad news.

This nation has had the opportunity to conserve energy or research new sources since the wake up call in the 70's. What did we do? Nothing. We just swallowed the bigger is better marketing campaigns. Our politicians avoided their responsibility because of their own personal beliefs and agenda. Now we are in the incredible position of supposedly responsible journalists seriously considering Americans killing Americans over dwindling resources.

Does anyone feel a tiny bit upset over this? Well, I'm afraid its your own fault.

 

[Catherine]

From olden days to modern times... people should be prepared for anything, have certain skills, use common sense and use the brains that the good Lord gave them. (I am not talking about this specific article now.)

People who grew up with smart people especially ones that survived the 'last depression' or a WAR (Or two or three wars!) have a clue about survival because they were taught various survival skills and/or paid attention to their teachers, mentors and/or family.

There are many good points in any kind of survival situation not only in firearms. Plus old fashioned or modern ways in using a firearm for food or a firearm for self defense.

Just because people talk about things that happened in the PAST, present or future does not make one paranoid or make another person need to use a tin foil hat. Geesh! Survival tactics in ANY situation including first aid, sanitation, raising crops, hunting with modern firearms, black powder, bow/arrow or even traps along with any other tactic should be taught. I am always amazed when people immediately go to the tinfoil hat theory when anyone discusses basic common sense skills or survival even if you are stranded in a vehicle in the middle of a blizzard or bad storm. How many of you survived with or withOUT a generator in blizzards, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc.? I can think of a few bad blizzards myself and not only the 1978 Great Lakes one that lasted a long time with NO power. Zilch. Some people died, some lived through it and others learned a few lessons! A hurricane where you are told to leave AHEAD of time? Bad wind storms, hail, lake or ocean storms, you name it on land or on water. You have to be taught things and not only rely on your basic instinct or make stupid decisions!

Funny that NO one thinks that it is so weird to discuss any other self defense issue with firearms. Gee, I wonder why? Hhhmmm.

There are so many people who hire everything out and would not know the basics of jack squat because they were NOT taught these things by parents, mentors or even in college.

Many people, not only 'survivalists' or religious sects - Mormons, Amish, etc., know that the 'government' and Mommy/Daddy are NOT always there for them when a disaster strikes and that includes a blizzard, a hurricane, a flood, a tornado, a forest fire or crop fire across the plains, house/barn fire, food shortage, water storage, making potable water, dressing wounds, fixing/setting a broken bone, surviving riots like you saw in the late 1960's and on, etc.

ALL kinds of people should know SOME of these things - not only Boy/Girl Scouts or people in the service with their training and Survival Manuals! Heck, even USN sailors are taught how to fight fires on ships!

It would be prudent if some couch potatoes, skeptics and the less informed would learn a FEW survival skills even if they would not be as talented as some people are on this board from the gitgo.

SOME people can survive in all kinds of areas if the SHTF. Some places would be better to survive in than others but you deal with where you are and with what you have on hand. So prepare when it comes to the 'basics'!

There are pros and cons in any living condition NO matter where your 'home' is located.

It is better to be prepared with basic skills and basic goods than not being prepared at all. Most people know that you should have certain things On Hand due to any disaster or 'shortage' of supplies... you name it!

I do think that Black Powder and/or 'reloading/hand loading' would be a good thing to learn or know. Some people know this already and have reloaded for many, many years. I think that bulk ammo, ammo supplies including 22LR would be good to have on hand just as much as matches, solar power, wind power, firewood, coal, oil lamps, toilet paper, water, food, Rx meds if you use them, vitamins/minerals/herbs, first aid supplies, blankets, candles, any other survival gear including sharp knives, axes, hand saws and knowing how to USE and sharpen them!

The people who talked about the pros and cons on city, town, rural, farm living areas made very good POINTS too. Pros and cons. Thank you!

Sincerely,

Catherine

 

[Diggers]

WOW....interesting read. From facts to foil hats and every thing in between.

About the oil.....(there were some wild comments about its origin....I mean WOWWEEE!!) From what I learned in bio and geo classes most of the coal and oil came from forest and swamps (and a few dinos perhaps ) that existed in the Carboniferous period around 260 million years ago.
So I don't think oil wells are going to fill back up anytime soon.

Price is going up because the WORLD is using more and more oil HOWEVER the US still consumes the most oil of any one country.

Overpopulation? You bet! The population of the planet is growing exponentially. That can't continue. Yes the human race has thus far dealt with this through science and smarts but there are still issues that are coming fast.
One of the biggest is WATER. Yep that stuff that covers most of the planet. Already there are issues with having enough, many places get their water from glacial run off......and those glaciers are melting fast soon to be gone......then what?
Sucking other rivers dry is an option but not one with out a cost that may be as bad as not having water.
I think its obvious that the world would be a better place with less people......BTY wars and such do nothing to curb the population growth, there are just too many people elsewhere having kids.

2 kids per woman is a population decline......its something to think about.

For now I think we need to use all our technology to produce energy while the BIG BRAINS figure out how to make Solar Power work well enough so it becomes the major source of energy. They are working on it.... I live in San Diego and the power co here has built (or is building) a solar farm in the desert about 100mi to the east, they say that it will produce enough energy to power the homes of about 20% of san diego. (If what they say is true, we will see. )

I find that really cool. Solar is the ultimate in energy production....the world (not people exactly) runs on it....once people learn how to convert a large percent of sunlight in to usable energy, shortages will be a thing of the past.

Here is a link to the solar dish that is being used for those who are interested in this stuff.

http://www.stirlingenergy.com/technology/tech-faq.asp

 

[leadcounsel]

believe you are all missing the point, soon (15-50years) humans will be among the stars living on other planets/moons (as lots of moons are "fairly nice". Funded by private companies, and other countries not USA, as we seem to of left space. Perhaps not in huge numbers at first, but just like the when humans found new land far off and started to live there, it will be the be with space

You are kidding, right? Who is the Hell is going to want to leave earth to live in space or, for that matter, can afford it? What you are talking about is pure science fiction - and for those that can afford it (eg the ultra wealthy), there is zero incentive for them to leave earth! I could see maybe some contract workers leaving for short stints to harvest resources of some sort, but no resource would be valuable enough to warrant the cost of sustained living in space - not in the next 50 years. Imagine giving up everything you know to go live in a bubble and never return. It's not akin to the exploration for a new world like Columbus. There's no forests, mountains, rivers, lakes, oceans, new culture and exotic people, spices, animals, plants, outdoors.... Nope. You would live in a bubble on a dangerous distant planet and forfeit everything you know back on earth. That means everthing you know on earth is gone. No roadtrips, vacations, outdoors experiences and adventures. Everything would be in some sanitized living space that you can't leave. I'm living in Iraq right now in my own unnatural austere environment and believe me, I'm not ready to live on Mars in a bubble for the rest of my life because it sucks.

And the conversation about living on another planet completely skips the conversation about the relative impossibility of doing so. First, there are no planets even NEAR earth that will sustain human life. Do you honestly think people are going to be willing to travel for months or years or tens of years to get to their new planet? There are so many scientific impossibilities, transportation impossibilities, financial impossibilities, environmental impossibilities, resource impossibilities.... the list goes on. Any one variable - take the financial barrier - is enough to make it a practical impossibility in my lifetime and probably my grandchildrens' lifetime. Think about it; it would take more money that I earn in my lifetime JUST TO GET ME TO ANOTHER PLANET, and that's assuming there are no costs once I get there. A whole scientific enviornmental city would need to be built and who's going to pay for that, even if the techonology exisisted (which it doesn't)? We have a hard enough time sustaining life and preserving our enviornment HERE on earth. It's pure Star Trek to think that it's going to work on a far distant planet.

Back on the realistic topic, I think when we see oil start to 'dry up' (meaning become unavailable to the masses) we will see an increase in crime and anarchy on a global scale as dependent 1st world nations slip back to 2nd or 3rd world nations and fight to try to stay afloat and not sink.

Our global prosperity is due to the cheap oil and the machines that consume it. That prosperity has led to global overpopulation. We have people living on top of people in massive cities. Without cheap oil, those machines will "sputter and stop." Where are 11 million "urbanites" in NYC going to go to hunt and grow crops? Where are millions in Tokyo going to go? London? Los Angelas? And how are they going to even get there?

As someone else pointed out, survival skills take YEARS to develop. Learning to hunt, farm, fish, etc. take years and when you are starving and don't have the time to develop those skills (because society has taught us skills like XBox, driving, typing, how to program a DVR, etc.) you may turn to more extreme measures.

 

[Ergosphere]

Wow, there's a lot of weird stuff on this thread. To address a few points with some actual facts...

Water is not a power source. It can not be used as fuel.

Oil will not "run out" so much as become prohibitively expensive. The abiotic genesis theory is almost certainly incorrect.

Sans Authoritas, the Malthusian catastrophe has merely been postponed, not denied. As a result of the human overpopulation, we are now undergoing a mass extinction event. At present growth rates, there will be 1 person per square meter in 800 years, and the mass of humanity will exceed the mass of the Earth in 2200 years. I think it's pretty obvious that this cannot occur. The environmental effects of overpopulation are already catastrophic. (Soylent Green, anyone? Actually, that won't even work.)

Treo, JWarren is right... the number of deaths due to disasters and wars is tiny compared to the birth rate. The global population is increasing rapidly. Right now, there are 364,000 births per day. That is 212,000 more than the replacement rate (152,000 people die every day).

China has effected population control measures, but such measures will be necessary in the U.S. -- and probably within my lifetime (I'm 35), unless the growth rate declines for other reasons. We have 300 million people now; in another 30 years that will be over half a billion. Do we really want to have that many people in this country, all using resources?

I don't think so.

Going to other planets is not the solution, either. There isn't a single one which is remotely habitable. The cost required to build space colonies, or terraform Mars, are ridiculous... it's simply beyond our capabilities, and that will remain true for the foreseeable future. Certainly it will not be possible in time to get us out of our present environmental and energy problems. Consider: if we have trouble dealing with the energy and environmental problems here on the garden planet that is our home, how would we ever handle the far more severe problems in the hostile environments found in space or on other planets? And that ignores the transportation issue, which is certainly a major problem all it's own.

I'm worried, especially since our economy is so dependent upon cheap energy and cheap oil. I'm not rich (but I don't run credit card debt either, so I suppose I'm better off than many), and I don't have any property the skills to live off the land. I'm hoping to improve my circumstances a bit, but...

Actually, I've been buying firearms and ammunition lately because I think durable goods are a good investment right now. I don't see much reason for faith in the value of the dollar...

 

[Catherine]

PS

PS:

Some of us are to blame because we keep electing the same old lesser of the evils in candidates! Politicians - you name it! Oil companies and greed in general - NO offense! Some life styles or living in the boonies or close to small farm/lake towns = more gasoline NO matter what you drive! Been there - done that in living OUT.

Have any of you heard about the Gull Island oil reserves? Solar/wind power even when it was NOT so popular to discuss? I do KNOW people who live OFF the grid. No, they have normal jobs and are not some 'type' that some people imagine! Generator use and only used rarely for some household things. They use solar, batteries, wood heat and wind power. Some used to use coal back east and were nuts, in my opinion, because they went to OIL back in the 70's right before the last oil embargo.

Some of us have always been aware of gasoline costs, wear and tear on an engine and vehicle and vehicle mileage (MPG) because we lived 'out' and did NOT always have mass transportation to take advantage of. I am not talking about suburbia - I am talking about rural living... later on mountain living. Many of our jobs were located in the 'city' and even if some of us were later self employed after working for companies, as I was before I retired, we needed to use a vehicle. Schedules were different between my late husband and I and we had NO car/van pools available. Disclaimer: Right NOW I live in a western town/city not way UP in the Montana mountains or in my former farm/lake state as I previously did.

Many of us who worked in the city or town took advantage of trying to consolidate errands AFTER our job ended so we did not have to waste gas, mileage and a precious thing called OUR personal time.

Some of us had boats too. Gasp! Sail and power boats so we 'wasted gas' according to some of those 'super activists'. We had boats and did NOT want to give up boating at that time. We sold our last boat in the early or middle 90's if memory serves me right. We bought a small, new Coleman pop up camper! Gasp! We used it for traveling and even on our own little ACRE in the boonies! I used it OUT here in Montana and LIVED in it for 6 months before my small log cabin too.

When I grew up on the east coast in Maryland, we used a street car, a bus, trains/subways if we went to NYC or further out, plus we WALKED a lot! We rode our bikes too. I never had the yellow school bus pick me up to go to public, religious or private school. We used mass transportation. We lived OUT in the suburbs but we used it. Later on my parents bought a car and that was due to my late Mom's health problems and cancer.

If it was not for the fact that I do go out into the wilderness now and need a vehicle to go to some of my off the beaten path places... I would not care if I had a car/truck or not. I rarely drive now as it is. There is a sense of freedom in having a vehicle and in NOT having a vehicle. I am not talking about needing one because you can't bike to work due to the amount of miles from point a to b. I am retired. If I buy some land where I have been looking and build... I will need a vehicle. My husband could walk to work if need be or ride a bike. The mass transportation in this western town does not work with his 24/7 office job hours!

It always gets me when people talk about conservation... some of us have been doing this type of living because it made sense all of our lives... especially since we bought our own cars, insurance and gas and NOT given all of these things by Mommy or Daddy! If you want it - you earn it by working for it!

We turned down the heat, had heating systems that worked for each room because we built it that way, super insulated our house with triple windows - insulated plus storms, super, super insulated, did not have central a/c and used energy efficient a/c window units and only if it got super HUMID, used clotheslines, bought energy efficient appliances, used plain fans for proper circulation, placed windows and doors for energy efficiency, etc. and that was in the EARLY 1970's! NO kidding! Designed it right from the gitgo. If I do build again... it will be SUPER small and I will use all of what I used before along with more modern tactics in conservation.

There were books in WATER conservation a zillion years ago too. Using gray/grey water if the zoning nazis let you get away with it even in super rural areas! When I planted grass in the early 1970's - we watered it and it grew. After it was established I NEVER watered it again. We always had a nice lawn too! I did water all of my hardwood and evergreen tree and bush plantings. NOT everyday though to establish them. Planted things for wildlife and soil conservation too. I absolutely hate to see WATER wasted with huge lawns because people who live in arid or western states want their grass and plantings to look like something out of lake/farm country, the east coast or the New England area where KY blue or KY mixed grass grows easily. What a waste of water and did they ever hear of using natural plants/trees and rocks for that specific area?! Zero or xeriscaping or whatever landscaping is what they call it. You see people out here and in other states who have in ground water sprinklers or hand water their lawns when they could make their plot of ground look nice without all of that water waste! Geesh. Even if you live in farm country or in another part of the country - your grass/lawn will COME back even if you don't use your well or 'city/county' water! You can SEED plant not buy it already grown too. Turf - ready made lawns! They don't work as well as seeds on the ground from what I have been told by people who spent hundreds and thousands of dollars on that stuff! Been there - done that on my own grass seed planting NOT ready made TURF lawns! Buy hey, whatever trips their trigger!

Drinking WATER will be a very big issue. If you have it - take care of it! I have a nice Berkey water filtration system too.

I don't want to live in outer space. NO offense! I am NOT an oil expert. I am not an expert in some of these subjects. I do think that people can explore other options in living and in conservation. I think that we need some good national policies in energy and in ALL kinds of things. Not just from the goobmint! Grin.

We need to grow our own crops for FOOD not just for bio fuel too!

Did I mention ammunition control or supply shortages? Guns... uh huh... that too! Grin.

Catherine

 

[Checkman]

Catherine

You hit the nail on the head. My wife and I have always lived on a budget. We lived in Germany for three years (93-96) and gas was approximately $6.00 a gallon back then. Food was pricey and so was alot of other things. Yes we were in the Army and had the commissary and Post Exchange, but we lived "on the economy" and my post was a 40 minute drive away from out house. We had to do alot of our living on the German economy.

Actually Germany was a good experience for us. We lived in a rural area, by German standards, (Bavaria) and the Germans taught us alot about living smartly. It's an expensive nation and they do a fairly good job living within it's economy.

Actually if you refer to my earlier posting you'll notice how that ties in to the community thing again.

But even before Germany we had lived within a very tight budget. Coupons, a small garden, consolidating trips, keeping the lights turned off, using a clothes line to dry clothes etc. Now was this living in the wilderness like Kit Carson? Of course not, but it did give us a sense of flexibility and made us realize what is necessary and what can be omitted.

I don't believe we're headed for some type of Mad Max future. I do have some faith in Humanity. But I believe we're headed for some changes and community will play a significant role in getting us through that painful transition - which may take generations. Some say we've been in it for decades already.

The Lone Wolves will either learn to play with the other children or they will get overwhelmed. Hey I'm a loner by nature, not a big one for groups, but I pride myself on being a realist as well.

Like the song goes Divided we stand united we fall.

Incidentally we live in a city of approximately 45,000. It's a ten minute walk from my place of work and perhaps a twenty minute walk to my wive's work. We still have a small garden and a nice older house with big thick plaster walls. We've installed more insulation and energy saving windows, a water saving washing machine (which has now payed for itself) and flourescent lights. Out electric and water bills have actually gone down over the past couple of years.

We have a terrific basement which gives us space to store food and yes I have a fully stocked safe. I've also cut back on my live fire training and learned the joy of Snap Caps. and dry firing. Hey every little bit helps.

 

[The Tourist]

Actually Germany was a good experience for us

I agree with most of your post. I also see the need to live without senselessly wasting items. I cast bullets and reload. My wife uses every coupon we can find.

The problem with your post is the idea that answers to American problems must come from outside the country. For example, I haven't read a post yet from a foreigner on a hobbyist forum where they don't take the opportunity to tell us what's wrong with America.

(And all of the time they sit in front of an American computer, in American blue jeans drinking Coca Cola.)

The reason I say this is that I went to college on one of the liberal campuses during the Vietnam War, clearly one of the most divisive among our people.

Yes, it probably was a good experience for me, but only to examine and validate my own core beliefs on right and wrong.

I mean, just because some socialist professor sqawked for an entire hour on napalm, President Johnson and troop escalation didn't mean I had to buy the premise.

I was going to college to educate myself, not become another automaton marching on State Street with a goofy sign.

Truth be told, I found out more on how people lived by taking my bike to Joey's Anchor Inn on Schenks Corners.

I have no problem in immersing myself in a culture. The idea is how this added knowledge enhances my life, not on how someone else recruits another voice.

 

[JohnL2]

It was only a matter of time until this happened. Just think of the global demand and supply metrics.
The future of energy is a "mix" of alternatives. And smart homeowners will try to be as self-sustaining as possible.
The big thing that would help the economy is transportation costs. The truck manufacturers should have seen this coming. If they were smart they would have something on the drawing boards to be able to go into production.
The aviation industry is basically screwed. Before anyone starts ballyhooing about hydrogen, they tried to build a hydrogen powered airplane a long time ago. It was a "white elephant". Because of the low energy density of hydrogen, the plane had to be as big as a football stadium. Not to mention the care of handling and storage headache that hydrogen entails. It was feasible, but economically it made absolutely no sense at all.

We are NOT headed for a Mad Max world. But there will always be people out there who will make poor choices and be desperate.

 

[Sato Ord]

Oil ain't going anywhere. for everyone that pretends that oil is running out, theres another guy saying that oil is replenishing itself(fossil fuel is really a myth, there weren't that many damn dinosaurs around to make that much oil,lol. Its a naturally occurring resource).

Fossil fuel most certainly is not a myth. If you understood the process you would understand that it wasn't the dinosaurs that became fuel. What we are burning now is the altered vegetation from the carboniferous period that took place before the dinosaurs evolved. During the carboniferous period there was so much vegetation that the oxygen content of the atmosphere was about 30%. That's why there could be dragonflies with three foot wing span, and ten foot long millipedes.

Another thing that few people seem to understand is that oil isn't important for crop production because we need fuel for tractors and drying grain. Oil is important because without it you can't grow corn on the scale that we grow it now. Corn is a lousy grain product. It takes so much from the soil it can't be grown on a large scale like we do without the amonium nitrite fertilizer that we get from oil.

Next time you go into your local supermarket read the labels of the products you are buying. You might be surprised to find that you will be hard pressed to locate any products that don't contain some type of corn product. Without oil we can't feed over 5 billion people for long.

Of course, fundamentalists won't have to worry about birth control if the population keeps increasing. Population is self limiting, we just haven't reached critical mass yet, but we're getting close.

Ever seen a bacteria culture in a petri dish? It doesn't go up and down on a bell curve. The number of bacteria thrives and increases for a while, then, no matter how much food it has to eat, nearly all of the bacteria die. Why, because they little bugs get poisoned by their own waste.

The way that translates to us is simple. You can only dump your sewage into your well for so long before you die from the contamination. There isn't a drop of water on this planet that you can't find traces of man made chemicals in. We have been dumping industrial waste and pesticides for a long time, and that little bird will eventually come home to roost.

Also, overpopulation will eventually cause the spread of plagues. We were extremely lucky that the bird flu didn't mutate so that it could spread from human to human. If it had it would have made the 1918 flu pandemic look like a walk in the park.

Flu is bad enough, but what if something like an Ebola outbreak gets into the general population?

I can live without electric lights, I'm more worried about food, water, and medical preparedness.

 

[Mr_Rogers]

Good points Sato (Do you read WB Yates?)

In westernized, as opposed to western, urban society we are vulnerable to the failure of many services. This is because urban life has exchanged the concept of relying on oneself to the idea of relying on a series of specialists - the grocery store, the gas station, the hospital, the garbage collection. This is just a fact of life.

Do we appreciate how many of these services require that spark of electricity that controls our life? Without electricity they all fail. Think about it.

In fact, a totalitarian government wishing to put an unruly area in its place needs only to shut down the electrical power to the area. No police required. Hunger, thirst and disease do the rest.