Ethical kills?

Status
Not open for further replies.
I think that the entire movement of Ethical Hunting is designed to stop snares / trapping / trot lines / bow and other primitive hunting. While that might be fine for most suburban hunters and what not, I still think it is worthwhile, survival skill wise, to learn about as many different ways of staying alive as humanly possible.
 
the entire movement of Ethical Hunting
Click to expand...
Oh. I honestly didn't realize that the term "Ethical Hunting" had been co-opted by a specific group with a specific agenda. I was talking about lower-case "ethical hunting," in its traditional sense.

Any group or movement that calls itself Ethical Hunting has no more claim on actual hunting ethics than the Democratic Party has a claim on democracy.
 
Ask a big game processor, about the ethical kills evidence he see's on the carcasses that he's brought for his service.

So many hunters say one thing, but have no problems taking foul shots.

Just saying not hating.
 
You might wish to reflect that a poacher or other criminal would have exactly that same opinion. Not meaning at all to imply you are either (I'm sure you're note), but I'm not sure why you'd choose a philosophy that can accommodate such folks.
Click to expand...




I'll let the law set the rules. Poachers are outside the law. Baiting deer is legal in Texas and I own a feeder. You don't have to like it, but it's legal. THAT is my point. HERE, it's ethical to bait deer. Now, I'm not really debating the OP with this, but the idea that a fast kill is to be desirable sorta says to me that pig sticking and bow hunting should be considered unethical. Well, I don't consider either unethical. There was a big PETA movement a while back to outlaw bow hunting. It went no where, of course, but the media, as always, played it up. This was in the 90s. The PETA argument was that bow hunting is cruel and unethical, as if they thought any hunting was ethical. They painted a picture of a deer dying a slow death with an arrow through its lungs as opposed to shot dead instantly via a rifle. Their right to an opinion in this country, but not their right to push it upon ME.

As to the shot from the rear, I've twice shot from butt to throat and killed deer instantly, but both times the deer turned just as I was breaking the shot! BUT, fortunately, turned out okay.

I have taken game on the run, too, when jumped and I had enough time to get on them. But, I'm good enough with a rifle to do that and I don't stretch the yardage on such shots. I never take a long shot without a rest...my ethic and I know my limits in the field. I try to ALWAYS find a rest with a handgun, never take an offhand shot with a handgun. I know that past 25 yards, I'm just not good enough to do it "ethically". But, if I can find a steady rest or carry one afield with me, I'll take a 200 yard shot with my .30-30 Contender should one present itself in an ideal condition. I practice off shooting sticks at the range for such. Longest I've yet killed a deer with the Contender, it was DRT, was 90 yards, though. There's no way to get a 200 yard shot in the cover on my place.
 
Last edited:
I'll let the law set the rules.
Click to expand...
You have it backwards. Ethics sets the laws.

One of the central ethical principles of hunting is conservation; we all want to make sure we are preserving a healthy animal population--neither too small nor too large. That's why we developed laws establishing hunting seasons, which (unless the species is over-populated) tend to concentrate on males after the breeding season.

Ethics is not whatever is left undecided by the law. It is the guiding principles of hunting, only some of which are codified into law.

For example, there is no law against being a lousy shot and so consistently crippling animals; and then not bothering to track them for more than a minute, thus "losing" them. According to you, if someone does that, season after season, why he's just as "ethical" as a guy who is careful and prepared enough to take all his animals with his shot...or to decide not to shoot if he feels the risk of wounding is too high.

After all, neither guy is doing anything illegal, right? Sure, one guys is a bit unlucky; but ethically, they are exactly the same!

:rolleyes:

Well, you enjoy hunting with that lousy shot, okay? He wouldn't be welcome at my campfire.
the ethical kills evidence he see's on the carcasses that he's brought for his service.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure what you are referring to. A misplaced shot can result from a sudden movement of the animal, an unseem twig that deflected the bullet--things besides bad preparation or bad judgment. Personally, if you showed me a bad shot on a carcass, I couldn't tell you by that if it was the result of an ethical or unethical shot--I'd have to talk to the hunter or someone else there to find out.
 
Last edited:
Regarding the ethics of feeders. In some areas of the country there are no amber waves of grain for the critters to feed on during the lean times. Just as there are areas of the country that have little water and folks have tanks or ponds that are man made.
Those of us who maintain these oasis which help keep game and other animals alive and healthy invest a great deal of time and money year round.
I know the exact range to every feeder and pond on my place which takes the guess work out of the equation. Shooting lanes are cleared every year and my stands have a good rifle rest. This is as ethical as I can make it. Still not every shot is perfect as all shooters are not created equal. You do your very best and dont take questionable shots.
Ethics is not just about the kill it is also about how animals are treated through the rest of the year.
If it wasnt for the folks who ensure that the animals have feed and water in my area ethics would be a moot point as there would be no animals to hunt.
 
You have it backwards. Ethics sets the laws.
Click to expand...

The laws are written. I make sure I'm within the law. Poachers (your example) don't. Poaching may or may not be unethical to an individual, but is sure by golly is illegal. I mean, I consider it unethical, but ethics are an individual opinion. I consider it unethical to cheat at solitaire. My wife does it all the time. :D I keep telling her God doesn't like that, but she seems to think it's okay.

A joke between us, of course.
 
Poaching may or may not be unethical to an individual
Click to expand...
This clause makes no sense.

Again, ethics is NOT decided by each individual, it is decided by the relevant group. To define ethics as you do would mean ethics literally has no meaning; which may be why you have no use or respect for ethics.

"We" hunters can decide, if a guy poaches an animal in a true survival situation, that he behaved ethically. A different poacher cannot decide as an individual that it is "ethical" for him to poach because he finds the law inconvenient.
 
Last edited:
why
Click to expand...
Because ethics is a group decision. To come to a decision, the group needs to discuss its differences of opinion. Sometimes, the decision will be that differing opinions are just fine (those decisions would be in the gray areas I talked about).

True: some folks will decide that they don't need to be part of the discussion. Because they don't care about what the group thinks; they just care about themselves. Some of those folks will be the poachers...

And, apparently, at least one nonpoacher who agrees with the poachers will be a Texan.

;)
 
What is ethical? To follow the letter of the law and allow our families to starve (vs. poaching)? No, not IMHO.

What is ethical? To follow to the very letter and allow inhumane dispatching of game? No, not IMHO.

We're mincing words here. Human beings are extremely widely varied with regards to this topic. Many believe animals have no feelings nor do they feel pain the way human animals do. Others believe that they do have feelings and do feel pain.

IMHO... anyone who chooses to hunt with less than a very quick-kill means is a selfish jerk with no heart and could very easily do the same to another human being.

I realize I'm on the edge of where I should stop posting and, indeed, this will be my last post tonight.
 
Loosedhorse, I don't agree with poaching, but then, I don't have yankee ethics either. If ethics aren't personal, they surely are regional. But, follow the law and I won't have a bone to pick with you, no matter how lousy a shot you are. To me, the law is the guideline, one must follow the law. In Texas, our ethics have shaped that law. We allow such things as baiting which so many yankees seem to abhor and the argument you seem to want to ignore.

Man, you should join PETA, I mean, really! You'd be aghast at what they do to animals in medical research. I've seen what they do to rabbits just to demonstrate what 5 percent NaOH will do to one's eyes (eye safety training in a chemical plant). A misplaced shot seems to be minor compared to some of THAT animal suffering, if the suffering of animals is your major concern in life.
 
Mike1234567, I hope you never slightly miss and cripple an animal. Don't take up dove hunting, either. I'd hate to see you suicidal. I mean, really, stuff does happen. If I was so good at wing shooting I'd never crippled a bird, hell, I'd give it up 'cause there'd be no more challenge, I'd have mastered the art. :rolleyes: After finding birds, I often yank the heads off to end it for 'em. Don't sound like you'd have the stomach for it.

Crippled birds are common. Down at the WMA, they even have a spot on the exit questionnaire, says "Cripples lost". Not everyone has a dog and it's REAL weedy out there with reeds and spartina grass everywhere. Drop 'em over the water is the goal, but it don't always work out as planned.
 
Internet fights result in frustrated factions of people that, in the end, have the exact same opinion that they had when it started.
How about we all agree that clubbing baby seals is wrong? That's pretty messed up, right?
See, now everybody is on one side, and life happily goes on.
But I'm sure somebody will say skinning baby seals alive is a perfectly justified source of income for the Canadians, and the fight ensues.. But seriously, you won't change anybody's mind! Your efforts are in vain!
 
I'd club baby seals for the fur....money....if legal and would do it in season with all the permits. Hell, I've done same with the spring traps PETA loves to hate to raccoons. Nothing wrong with sustained yield harvests. I figure there are those whose "ethics" allow that, so who am I to disagree, anyway, since we don't have baby seals in Texas and I know squat about them or the market. Besides, I've done worse trapping racoons and letting 'em suffer til I get there to put 'em down. Do I really deserve an opinion on seals? Well, yeah, I guess everyone deserves an opinion, but it might not be MINE. I ain't gettin' all PETA over it, let's put it that way.
 
Those are MY ethics, though
Click to expand...

You do realize that if ethics are a personal thing, and people act upon their ethics, then the word ethics means absolutely nothing as a person is ethical no matter what they do since they don't have a problem doing it personally right?
 
MCGunner... True, I don't have the stomach for it. I guess I'm a coward at heart. This is why I'm eating a plate full of corn hominy tonight. I did feed the cat and dog their meat.
 
I skimmed the thread and didn't find anything about seals. When you trap, do you club your fox/coon/whatever half to death and then skin it while it still breathes? Having an option to use a gun and using a club instead is borderline sadism. That's just my opinion, I'll give it even though nobody asked for it, which seems to be the trend here. My last post ITT.. I know better than to stick around when a s***storm is brewing...
 
Hmm, a whole thread full of baby seal killers.
Click to expand...


Sweet I made the club:D

Its amazing how many people do not understand trapping. Those dreaded snares often work more as a leash. Most yotes have been very submisive when I have approached. I check my traps at least once a day if not twice. If I decide to set a snare to kill it can be done very very quickly.

My own definiton of ethics is who we are when no one is looking. Laws are typically based upon ethics and morals of a group of people. Mostly set up with the feelings and sitiuations of a specfic region. Running deer with dogs is very much legal in the south and I have no problem with it. Yet the same thing is illegal as heck in Kansas and much of the midwest.

Now just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is ethical. Yet only each individual can determine what defines there ethics and morals. Doing something just because it is legal to do so makes no since if you have moral or ethical bias against it.
 
MCGunner... True, I don't have the stomach for it. I guess I'm a coward at heart. This is why I'm eating a plate full of corn hominy tonight. I did feed the cat and dog their meat.
Click to expand...

Okay. I just gotta ask, though, no disrespect meant, but WHY are you on a hunting board? Odd.

When you trap, do you club your fox/coon/whatever half to death and then skin it while it still breathes?
Click to expand...

I'm lazy and .22s are cheap. :D But, it's not my understanding that during the fur seal harvest they were clubbed HALF to death. Twas my understanding that they were clubbed to death. Saves money, ammo costs. They were large scale harvesting. Don't have to worry about it anymore, though. The PETA folks have successfully ruined the market for fur of all kinds. I can't get squat for much anymore other than bobcat and I'd have to burn more gas to get to the buyer than I could make of THAT. Fur market is dead, so no more fur clubbers. :D That's why there haven't been any more PETA commercials about it in 30 years. They shot their selves in the foot doing away with the fur harvest. That was their best photo ops.
 
Sweet I made the club

Its amazing how many people do not understand trapping. Those dreaded snares often work more as a leash. Most yotes have been very submisive when I have approached. I check my traps at least once a day if not twice. If I decide to set a snare to kill it can be done very very quickly.

My own definiton of ethics is who we are when no one is looking. Laws are typically based upon ethics and morals of a group of people. Mostly set up with the feelings and sitiuations of a specfic region. Running deer with dogs is very much legal in the south and I have no problem with it. Yet the same thing is illegal as heck in Kansas and much of the midwest.

Now just because something is legal doesn't mean that it is ethical. Yet only each individual can determine what defines there ethics and morals. Doing something just because it is legal to do so makes no since if you have moral or ethical bias against it.
Click to expand...

Finally, an explanation I can agree with. :D Unfortunately, I have few biases against different ways of hunting so long as it's within the law of the state where applied.

I thought of something concerning ethics the other day, was up in New Mexico talking to this fellow that ran a little store in Queens, only little store for miles around. He is telling us that he gets guys in from Texas with "war wagons" as he calls 'em, trucks with high shooting platforms. Those are legal on Texas ranches, but you can't shoot off the road in the Guadalupes. Regional ethics are a bit different on that subject, but then, in Texas, they're using those on private land. New Mexico we were hunting national forest. I don't think his "war wagons" :D are legal on PRIVATE land in New Mexico, though, not sure.

Well, I never set a snare. I used spring traps. I'm an evil, unethical person to PETA and if they weren't mostly atheists, I'm sure they'd agree I was doomed to burn in hell. Only thing I trap now is hogs in a giant "have-a-heart". I sometimes shoot 'em in the shoulder instead of the head just to compare the affects of different carry calibers. They do die pretty quick, but when I do that, I'm not even head shooting 'em POINT BLANK. I have a lot of confidence in 9x19 +P, though, from doing this. .357 is simply devastating. 9x18, well, I'm a little disappointed in that one. It confirms that I don't need no stinkin' Ruger LCP, though, rather pocket my 9mm. All in the name of science, you understand. Nothing they didn't do in Strasbourg to goats, less all the timing and nervous system testing, though. Call it, redneck Strasbourg if you will :D.
 
I'm not gonna spoon-feed anybody, but go to a dictionary and start with "ethos".

Hunting laws generally derived from what hunters said were wanted to control mis-management of game animal populations. As things got more codified with wildlife agencies and independent groups like Boone and Crockett, "fair chase" grew in importance as part of the hunting ethic. As a group, hunters and wildlife agencies have included hours, limits and seasons--and cooperating with all that is part of the ethical hunt.

And forget this BS about needing to poach in order to feed the family. Not in this modern welfare state. Poaching is unethical; I don't care if everything poached is DRT.

So we're back to clean kill. I dunno how much Bambi suffers. Me, I suffer if I have to walk very far from where was when I shot him to where he ends up when he's "plumb daid". So far, fifty yards is the max. I've commented in many a thread that I'm picky about my shots. Why? I'm lazy.

Now, if a guy thinks he has the skill to make a shot, but does not make a good hit, he's not unethical. Stupid or incompetent, maybe, but not unethical. There is a difference.

Ortega y Gasset's "Meditations on Hunting" is recommended reading. Granted, it's not a lightweight beach-reading book:

http://www.amazon.com/Meditations-Hunting-Jose-Ortega-Gasset/dp/1932098534
 
And forget this BS about needing to poach in order to feed the family. Not in this modern welfare state. Poaching is unethical; I don't care if everything poached is DRT.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I didn't address THAT one in all the flurry of back and forth, but I totally agree. Breaking a law, game law or otherwise, be prepared to pay the price. You want food, go to the food bank. Go to my church. They help folks ALL the time. Don't even NEED a welfare state in this country, plenty of charity around and we give what we can, believe it or not. We've taken several trunk fulls over to the food bank here in Corpus and we give through our church regularly. The other day we took a donation down to "Good Samaritans". Man, that was a fine side of town. I was thankful for the 9mm security I felt in my pocket THAT morning, can tell ya that. :D "Good Samaritans" feeds, clothes, and houses the homeless.

Yeah, I agree with the "lazy" angle, too. I HATE blood trailing. I had to do it with a hog and a Javelina before from poor hits. The Javalina was mine. I shot too far back, didn't know the anatomy. I got charged when I finally caught up with both these animals. the Javelina gave me a thrill, but the hog was about gone when I got there and didn't have much left. I did learn my hog/javelina anatomy after that. :D Proper shot placement COULD be good for your health, depending on the game. Now, hogs and Javelina were bad enough, but imagine having to go after an African Leopard in the brush like that. Uh, well, I'd prefer to make an instant kill and it would have little to do with "ethics". :D
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

mcb
  • Locked
Ethics of killing animals and their status as Game vs Predators vs Fur-bearing vs Varmint/Pest.
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
128
Views
7K
H&Hhunter
H&Hhunter
R
  • Locked
Hunting is evil
2 3 4 5 6 7
Replies
156
Views
8K
Kaylee
K
Swifty Morgan
  • Locked
Ethics of Squirrel Head Shots
2 3 4 5
Replies
112
Views
9K
Art Eatman
A
M
  • Locked
Tension between hunting ethics?
2
Replies
49
Views
3K
jmorris
jmorris
C
  • Locked
More ethical/fair chase still hunting or stand?
2 3 4 5 6
Replies
132
Views
5K
Art Eatman
A
Back
Top