Ethical kills?

[Bone2bWild]

All this talk about "knowing" you can take an ethical shot is BS. Last time I checked my guns and bows could out shoot me any day of the week. In fact buck fever makes me an entirely unreliable hunter yet if all I did was worry about the ethics of the shot I'd have to hang up the camo. Hunt enough and you'll injure an animal or just plain miss. I figure it's no worse than starvation, predation, or the grill of a Buick so I don't lose any sleep over it. Id bet PETA loves our own discussing this topic because unless you are a surgical killing machine it's not ethical in their view. So why are we helping them along with their agenda?


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[caribou]

""I get fed up with holier than thou, condescending northerners/north westerners, etc, that, for instance, tell me feeders are unethical.""

Well, Mc, in Alaska we call it "Baiting", and its how we get bears and fur bearers out of the bushes where we can size them up, look for cubs/pups, and have a clean clear shot where we can put in a second shot before it makes cover.

In Farm country, feeding Deer aint much different, as far as I see........

 

[Loosedhorse]

We're mincing words here. Human beings are extremely widely varied with regards to this topic

Go to any appeals court on any day, and you will see folks there who are "mincing words", disagreeing about what a law actually means. Yet, no one claims (I think) that such disagreement means that the law doesn't exist, or is unique to each indivdual person.

(To choose not to hunt is not being a coward, Mike--no reason to do it if you don't need the meat, or don't enjoy the sport. Besides, that leaves more deer for the rest of us! )

I don't agree with poaching, but then, I don't have yankee ethics either

You seem to always use yankee as an insult. You seem to portray me as having "yankee ethics." Ironic that you, the "great individualist", see me only as a yankee stereotype--not an indivdual. Fortunately, I've met enough Texans to suspect that very few of them are as dismissive about hunting ethics as you.

If ethics aren't personal, they surely are regional.

Not regional, ethics are situational. They depend on circumstances. If the realities of deer hunting in Region A are different than Region B, then we'd expect hunters in the two regions to behave differently. But, we'd also expect that, if you swapped the hunters into the other region, they'd then behave in the way appropriate to that region, not continue to act as if they are still where they used to be. They'd act not according to who they are (personal ethics), but according to their activity (hunting) and their specific circumstances.

That is what makes ethics not personal: we expect hunters in similar circumstances to make similar decisions. Except in understood gray areas.

Another ethical principle (not just of hunting) is home-rule: that the people who live somewhere have a large say in what the laws are there.

In Texas, our ethics have shaped that law.

We finally agree!

Man, you should join PETA, I mean, really!

But then you make a nonsensical insult (especially after you talked about bowhunters making animals suffer). It shows that your main purpose here is to disrupt discussion and insult--but again, it does clarify that you have no use for ethics.

You'd be aghast

Your ignorance of me is much, much greater than my ignorance of medical research; I am not aghast.

if the suffering of animals is your major concern in life.

Any hunter who is completely unconcerned with causing animals unnecessary pain (as you seem to be) should give up hunting...and take up torturing--which you seem to have a fascination with already, given your gleeful references to clubbing (see next) and caustic eye injuries.

I'd club baby seals for the fur....money....if legal and would do it in season with all the permits.

I believe you would; even if there was a more humane way of taking them (shot to the head comes to mind), my guess is you'd club them, and put the video on youtube.

You are a true ambassador for hunting everywhere.

Yet only each individual can determine what defines there ethics and morals.

Everyone gets to decide their individual ethics, even criminals--if someone says "These are my ethics," who can tell him they're not?

But hunters as a whole decide what ethical hunting is. If someone says (as we apparently do have someone saying) it is ethical for hunters to be completely unconcerned with causing animals pain when hunting--in fact, what's wrong with a little torture?--we get to say he's wrong. Because he is wrong, and it doesn't matter what his "personal ethics" allow him in that regard.

In fact buck fever makes me an entirely unreliable hunter yet if all I did was worry about the ethics of the shot I'd have to hang up the camo.

If you are, as you claim to be, an entirely unreliable shot, then IMHO you should hang it up.

Now, if a guy thinks he has the skill to make a shot, but does not make a good hit, he's not unethical

I agree, but I would change it to "reasonably thinks." Then, I would agree entirely.

You do realize that if ethics are a personal thing, and people act upon their ethics, then the word ethics means absolutely nothing as a person is ethical no matter what they do since they don't have a problem doing it personally right?

Bingo.

 

[MCgunner]

All this talk about "knowing" you can take an ethical shot is BS. Last time I checked my guns and bows could out shoot me any day of the week. In fact buck fever makes me an entirely unreliable hunter yet if all I did was worry about the ethics of the shot I'd have to hang up the camo. Hunt enough and you'll injure an animal or just plain miss. I figure it's no worse than starvation, predation, or the grill of a Buick so I don't lose any sleep over it. Id bet PETA loves our own discussing this topic because unless you are a surgical killing machine it's not ethical in their view. So why are we helping them along with their agenda?

Well, Bone2bWild, I really don't get the buck fever anymore. I did when I was a kid, but I've shot a lot of game over the years, lost none of it though I've had to track a few, and I cannot remember making a head or neck shot. My grandpa told me as a kid to always shoot for the biggest target, the shoulder, always puts 'em down, and he was right methinks. Don't hurt much meat and if the deer kicks around on the ground with a broken shoulder, at least he ain't goin' anywhere. I can take him out with a .22 to the cranium when I get there. I've done that a few times with my NAA mini I always have on me. They usually expire before I have to do that, though, and the shot is a kill shot because all the important plumbing is behind that shoulder. I always try to get the bullet in that plumbing.

I'm a good shot if I do say so myself, head shot many a squirrel from 50 yards and in when I was a kid, learned to hunt and shoot on small game. I can probably out shoot most of the people on this board, I say that as fact, no brag, because I've shot against many in local competitions and I know what the average hunter is capable of and I know what I can do. I'm not THAT great, no national camp perry marksman type, but I consider myself well above the skill level of the average hunter with his thuddy thuddy. Yet, I will go for the biggest target BECAUSE it works, it puts 'em down, and I usually won't have to go looking for 'em. If I have to finish 'em off when I get there, so be it. But, if I hit that shoulder, a roughly 12"x12" target area, the deed is done. On deer, even if I get it off the shoulder slightly behind, if he don't go right down, he ain't goin' far. And if you've ever seen a cat kill, you know my kill is far more "humane" than a natural predator's kill, though I do consider myself as a "natural predator".

So, you keep on hunting. No one on this board was a nationally ranked rifle shooter, i'm guessing, when they shot their first deer and I can guarantee you, if they weren't a little nervous, they had neurological problems or just weren't in to it because that first couple of dozen or so deer get you going. Even today, my heart rate elevates when I see game, especially a shooter I want to take. If it didn't, I'd quit. I don't need the meat that bad. THAT is really what it's all about and in that state of elevated heart rate, I'm not shooting for a 3" target at 200 yards, I'm putting it to the shoulder. I pretty much agree with you on all counts. PETA would love this thread. It would acknowledge that they're getting their message through, even to HUNTERS. And, I hunt alone, just me and the wild and God is present. I don't need to be with Loosehorse or in his camp nor glorified by his presence.

 

[Loosedhorse]

PETA would love this thread.

If that is true, your posts have made it so, by stating that animals suffer during bowhunting, claiming you'd enjoy clubbing seals (if legal), declaring that hunters shouldn't be bothered by wounding animals or other points of ethics, and promoting divisiveness among hunters.

Give yourself a prize, in between those 50-yard squirrel head-shots.

 

[MCgunner]

If that is true, your posts have made it so, by stating that animals suffer during bowhunting, claiming you'd enjoy clubbing seals (if legal), declaring that hunters shouldn't be bothered by wounding animals or other points of ethics, and promoting divisiveness among hunters.

Just WHO is promoting divisiveness? Must be a mirror in front of your monitor. My whole point is that YOU are not the keeper of the book of ethics. You do not tell me what to do or how to do it or even where to shoot an animal and if you tried, well, I'll quit while I'm ahead on that line of thought.

I've never clubbed (nor seen) a fur seal other than on PETA commercials, but I'm not going to tell a group of seal hunters they can't make a legal living just because seals are all furry and fluffy and, anthropomorphically "cute". If they looked like gators, you probably wouldn't have a problem with it. YOU are potential PETA bait. If there is a viable population of seals, why cannot there be a sustained harvest? And, what does it matter how they whack those seals. You trying to help out the ammo companies with sales? Heck, the "doomsdayers", ammo hoarders, don't need any help with that. They're doing a great job.

 

[Loosedhorse]

My whole point is that YOU are not the keeper of the book of ethics.

Even though you insist on telling me I'm not...I never said I was. So, why is your "whole point" a strawman argument?

What you have said is that animal suffering is routine in hunting, that you are unconcerned with that, and that you feel all hunters should also be unconcerned with it. Be sure to dress nice when PETA comes to interview you, spokesman for all "true" hunters that you are.

You trying to help out the ammo companies with sales?

To the same extent that you are trying to help the seal-club companies with their sales, I guess.

 

[MCgunner]

Anyway, I started a new ethics thread where everyone can feel free to hijack. I think we got a little off the "ethical shot" theme with this one. I'm out on this one, had my say. Done enough damage to this one.

 

[Mike1234567]

I wonder if, during our judgment (if there is such a thing), we'll all be subjected to all the wrongs and rights which we've done in our lifetimes.

 

[Steel Talon]

I'm not sure what you are referring to. A misplaced shot can result from a sudden movement of the animal, an unseem twig that deflected the bullet--things besides bad preparation or bad judgment. Personally, if you showed me a bad shot on a carcass, I couldn't tell you by that if it was the result of an ethical or unethical shot--I'd have to talk to the hunter or someone else there to find out.

You are thinking in singular situations. I'm talking more to the quantity of carcasses presented that display evidence of hind quarters struck, multiple bullet strikes etc. It's also very clear which animals recieved a single quick kill shots to the heart/ lung cavity, neck, or brain shot.

Our local processor and his brother from November to December from firearm season can do as many as 100 plus Deer (Couse White Tail and Mulies) and maybe an Elk or two given the luck of AZ draw.

 

[Steel Talon]

Doves...I'd have mastered the art.

When you have truly MASTERED the art ,as I have. I deliver my kill shot in such a way the birds fall to earth and land on thier back,so as not to bruise the breast...

 

[MCgunner]

Helps in finding them in the brush, too, I'd bet. Hell, I've lost birds in a FRIGGIN' PLOWED FIELD. I need another dog......

I wonder if, during our judgment (if there is such a thing), we'll all be subjected to all the wrongs and rights which we've done in our lifetimes.

Bible says our sins are forgiven, IF........a link....

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+3:16&version=NIV

Up to the individual to believe it and accept it.

BTW, far as I know, there is no mention of game law and hunter ethics in the Bible that I've ever found. I'd have paid attention if I'd ever read something like that. These laws, far as I know, are all contrived by man.

 

[Mike1234567]

So, to clarify, what you're advocating is do as we please with the knowledge that, as long as we believe a certain thing, there will be no consequences to ourselves and that makes it okay to do as we please whenever we please?

 

[MCgunner]

Unless you break GOD's law. There will be judgement. God gave Moses his laws. Shot placement on game animals was never mentioned, I know this for fact.

I'm a learning Christian and don't know it all, never will. That's why I go to Bible study. You probably should be asking this stuff to your pastor, not me.

 

[Loosedhorse]

BTW, far as I know, there is no mention of game law and hunter ethics in the Bible

Well, of course the Bible is not a game law handbook. But it does say a lot (in the OT) about how to treat and use animals. Jewish law has done a thorough explication of those principles.

Hunting for sport is prohibited in Jewish law, based on the Torah. Hunting for food is problematic as the animal must be killed not by the shot, but by a slaughtering knife stroke.

In addition, the Bible does not look kindly on hunters: Esau and Nimrod were hunters, and Esau at least was a villain (traditionally, not Biblically, Nimrod was, too). And negative hunting and trapping imagery is found elsewhere, like Psalms: "He is the one who will rescue you from hunters' traps and from deadly plagues..."

Thankfully, we are not bound by Biblical or rabinical (or even Hindu) beliefs. But the idea that game laws designed to manage animal populations are inconsistent with the Bible would be an odd one.

 

[Mike1234567]

**deleted** just received a "hint" via a deleted post. So I'm stopping here.

 

[MCgunner]

If I thought Jewish law were my salvation, I wouldn't have most of a hog in my freezer or a hog trap for that matter. AND, I hunt primarily for "sport" as I don't NEED to hunt for meat. I have an HEB down the street from me.

"He is the one who will rescue you from hunters' traps and from deadly plagues..."

And you think that's not a metaphor?

I just don't believe that we can go through our lives causing pain and suffering and not pay a penalty (if there's a penalty to be paid). I think we've grossly misunderstood and/or muddled whatever message(s) were given to us (if there was/is any message).

Causing pain and suffering to whom? I kinda think maybe Bernie Madoff is headed to hell, but it's not mine to judge.

 

[allaroundhunter]

When you have truly MASTERED the art ,as I have. I deliver my kill shot in such a way the birds fall to earth and land on thier back,so as not to bruise the breast...

That's nice shooting and all....mine land in my vest

 

[Loosedhorse]

I just don't believe that we can go through our lives causing pain and suffering and not pay a penalty (if there's a penalty to be paid).

Well, hunting is not metaphysics. But I share your belief.

On a practical level, the more that hunters are unconcerned about animal suffering--and the more they BRAG about that lack of concern --the more likely that we will see the political will created to increase hunting regulations, in order to "fill the gap" created by hunters refusing to self-regulate. And eventually hunting will be regulated out of reach of most hunters.

We can say what we want about 2A, but there is no fundamental right to hunt in this country. To the extent that hunters are seen as unethically abusing the privilege (or as abusing animals), hunting will be taken away.

And you think that's not a metaphor?

Of course it is a metaphor: for oppression and evil. Nice associations with hunting and trapping, huh? You're the one making a big deal about what the Bible says. Live with it.

 

[MCgunner]

That's nice shooting and all....mine land in my vest

What, they don't pick themselves first?

 

[Steel Talon]

That's nice shooting and all....mine land in my vest

You got me there! Well, not to brag..(much)

I've numerous times over the years shot a Dove coming head on and have caught it in my hand as it folded and plummeted tom the ground.

 

[MCgunner]

I've numerous times over the years shot a Dove coming head on and have caught it in my hand as it folded and plummeted tom the ground.

Can you do that with a snow goose?

 

[Bone2bWild]

All this empassioned talk about an ethical shot, if this were so cut and dried wouldn't it also be logical to only have one form of capital punishment in the delivery of a death sentence? Stoning used to be ok, hanging used to be ok. I don't want my bow hunting to go the way of the noose. Do you not see the slippery slope we are on trying to appease these activists? I'm not advocating all out abolishment of a code of conduct but we are dealing with irrational folks with not comprehension of a day prior to grocery stores. Forget hunting for a moment, the grocery store as we know it invented the modern day vegetarian and with it their contrarian beliefs systems. What my grandmother did not 80 years ago to feed her kids would turn the noses of vegetarians and PETA for sure. our nation has gotten soft and political correctness has run amuck. It's why I'm an NRA supporter. I don't willfully set out to wound a deer but it has happened and I don't lose any sleep over it knowing that it was far better than starvation, predation, or he grill of a Buick. We as hunters are not the surgical practicioners of death that would appease all their objections to our sport. I for one am tired of trying.

 

[Loosedhorse]

the grocery store as we know it invented the modern day vegetarian and with it their contrarian beliefs systems

I don't willfully set out to wound a deer but it has happened and I don't lose any sleep over it knowing that it was far better than starvation, predation, or he grill of a Buick.

If you wound a deer and lose it, you have no way of knowing it didn't starve, or get preyed upon--or smashed by a Buick. And no way of knowing that those deaths would not have been "better."

I don't "lose any sleep" over an animal I recover, even if I had to trail it way too long. I do try to find out how and why I messed up the shot.

I have lossed sleep over an animal I lost--in part because I was trying to trail it until after dark, and was right back there again the next morning at first light.

 

[allaroundhunter]

I've numerous times over the years shot a Dove coming head on and have caught it in my hand as it folded and plummeted tom the ground.

Haha, I have only done that once....and I'll admit...I have never caught one in my vest (but I did try )

Can you do that with a snow goose?

Never tried with a goose....never been goose hunting (dying to go soon though)
However, when duck hunting in a lay-down blind I shot one and as soon as I had lined up a second one the first landed flat on my stomach and knocked the breath out of me....