FN Five seven is a cop killer gun...

[4v50 Gary]

It's so refreshing to know that the media hasn't changed. It's not about news, it's about grabbing your attention and stirring you up emotionally. Why? Follow the dollar, the advertising dollar.

 

[Spot77]

That FN is our best friend right now. Let these idiots spend precious time and capital trying unsuccesfully to get that one pistol banned.


The majority of the public couldn't give a rat's arse about one pistol.

 

[benEzra]

I don't know if it's deliberate deceit or just plain technical incompetence, but they used an obsolete Level IIA vest THAT'S NOT EVEN RATED TO STOP .357 MAGNUM to demonstrate how "dangerous" the FiveSeven is.

Also note that the vest did NOT stop the shotgun slug; the slug stayed wrapped in Kevlar but there was enough backface deformation that the slug would have penetrated the wearer's heart and come to rest against his spine. Maybe they should look up the NIJ standards on how much backface deformation constitutes a failure of the vest before they go spouting off about vest penetration.

They could have used a Level II or IIIA vest and tested in accordance with NIJ protocols, but then they'd have had egg on their faces when the 5.7x28mm rounds didn't penetrate...

 

[Tequila_Sauer]

Yeah, you know, I never really wanted a 5-7, but, now all of a sudden, I just gotta have one. I'm going to be getting a new gun mid-Feb., maybe I'll give these a heads up.

 

[BowStreetRunner]

Spot,
you are correct, let them whine and cry over one gun. But we need to be aware that a movement will emerge to ban "armor piercing ammo," like the kind in the FN 5.7! (they will also try to ban every other kind of useful ammo). Just like when Teddy K moved to ban most useful hunting ammo. Such a tactic won't fly in the national arena but it might in certain states.
BSR

 

[BowStreetRunner]

wow, that viedo is bad.
what a bunch of statist losers.
BSR

 

[Sinsaba]

Doesn't the testing protocol call for the vest to be backed with something a bit more substantial than a hay bale?

 

[MechAg94]

So, can someone post some links to online dealers who are selling this gun? I may just have to buy one soon. I can't afford a 50 BMG right now, but I might be able to get this.

 

[Manedwolf]

1. They just gave free PR to criminals who might NOT have known what the hell it was, but now will want one, thus endangering actual cops. Thanks, Bradyites!

2. So it's capable of piercing SOME lesser sorts of body armor...so is an old CZ-52 with Czech surplus 7.62x25! Are they going to ban those, too? Blah. They might.

 

[Ermac]

what a bunch of goofballs...

did anyone notice that the guy in red said "Point the Shotgun down range"? as he walked up to the haystack? Doesn't pointing a gun downrange mean to point it DOWNRANGE at the target? No wonder they are FORMER LEO's.

I own a FiveseveN and love it....f*ck them

 

[jsalcedo]

1. They just gave free PR to criminals who might NOT have known what the hell it was, but now will want one, thus endangering actual cops. Thanks, Bradyites!

Brady people want these guns to be used in a shooting against a cop, in a school or on a baby in a stroller.

That way they can shout "SEE WE TOLD YOU" and roll around in the victims blood on TV with katie couric.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

I don't know if it's deliberate deceit or just plain technical incompetence, but they used an obsolete Level IIA vest THAT'S NOT EVEN RATED TO STOP .357 MAGNUM to demonstrate how "dangerous" the FiveSeven is.

Also note that the vest did NOT stop the shotgun slug; the slug stayed wrapped in Kevlar but there was enough backface deformation that the slug would have penetrated the wearer's heart and come to rest against his spine. Maybe they should look up the NIJ standards on how much backface deformation constitutes a failure of the vest before they go spouting off about vest penetration.

They could have used a Level II or IIIA vest and tested in accordance with NIJ protocols, but then they'd have had egg on their faces when the 5.7x28mm rounds didn't penetrate...

Dude, a lot of cops wear IIa vests. I don't know where you got the idea they were obselete. They are simply the lowest level of ballistic protection, Level I vests being mostly fragmentation protection.

A IIa vest won't even stop a .357 magnum? That may be true, but a .357 magnum is a pretty significant pistol caliber. IIa will stop 9mm fmj round nose and hollowpoint (~1000 fps, .45 acp round nose and holllowpoint (~900 fps), and .40 S&W round nose and hollowpoint (~1000 fps) as well as lessor calibers such as .380, .38 Special, .32 acp, .25 acp, and some .22 lr. In short, the 'obselete' IIa vest will stop much of the common ammo found used by typical bad guys.

Your description of 12 ga slug ballistics with kevlar is amazing, naive, but amazing.

The FN 5.7 round will penetrate Level II and IIIa vests just fine. Not only that, but it will do it without the need for the steel core, the illegal for civilians to own steel core AP ammo. The jacket lead core ammo goes through kevlar just fine.

How is this possible? Simple. Its pointy like military ball ammo that will zip right through a vest, even lead core FMJ. The kevlar works by esstentially 'catching' the incoming round in the weave and dispersing the energy over a fairly wide area as the kevlar is impacted by the bullet. This works great for most round nosed pistol ammo, shotgun pellets, etc. However, the kevlar weave is a poor performer at stopping stabbing implements like ice picks and stiletto knives. The FN 5.7 lead core FMJ round will pass through the kevlar just like an ice pick. Ice picks and pionty military ball-type ammo penetrates by using the point to pass between the fibers, thereby negating the fibers' ability to catch the incoming round.

Note that when folks talk of armor piercing ammo, they are not referring to ammo that will pierce soft armor. They are talking about piercing hard armor.

 

[benEzra]

Dude, a lot of cops wear IIa vests. I don't know where you got the idea they were obselete. They are simply the lowest level of ballistic protection, Level I vests being mostly fragmentation protection.

I'd be rather surprised if a department were still issuing Level IIA's for duty use. New ones aren't significantly cheaper than full NIJ Level II's, at least on the sites I looked at. From what I've read, IIIA seems to be the choice of departments that can afford it (or where the climate permits), and II the choice of those departments who don't want IIIA.

Perhaps describing IIA as "obsolete" was a poor choice of words. "Not widely issued by law enforcement agencies anymore" would probably be more accurate.

A IIa vest won't even stop a .357 magnum? That may be true, but a .357 magnum is a pretty significant pistol caliber.

It's also one of the more common calibers that police officers may face. The Bradyites are being deceptive when they paint the 5.7x28 with civilian ammunition as having mythic vest-busting powers, when they intentionally chose a vest not rated to stop the common .357. They are also not advocating a ban on .357's...at least not yet...

IIa will stop 9mm fmj round nose and hollowpoint (~1000 fps, .45 acp round nose and holllowpoint (~900 fps), and .40 S&W round nose and hollowpoint (~1000 fps) as well as lessor calibers such as .380, .38 Special, .32 acp, .25 acp, and some .22 lr. In short, the 'obselete' IIa vest will stop much of the common ammo found used by typical bad guys.

IIA is better than nothing, sure. So is Level I, which will stop up to .38 Special.

Your description of 12 ga slug ballistics with kevlar is amazing, naive, but amazing.

Perhaps you need to read up on NIJ body armor classification ratings and test protocols. A NIJ Level IIA vest is not rated to stop a 12-gauge shotgun slug, and in fact the Bradyite video clearly shows the IIA vest failing the test via the NIJ backface deformation criteria. I refer you to National Institute of Justice Standard 0101.04, "Ballistic Resistance of Personal Body Armor," which classifies more than 1.73 inches of backface deformation (44 mm) as a failure, since that is enough to kill you. The Bradyite video clearly shows several inches of backface deformation, and that's not even taking into account temporary deformation of the backstop.

Here's a direct link to NIJ 0101.04 Rev A, if you don't believe me:
http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/0101.04RevA.pdf

NIJ 0101.04 Addendum B (minor clarification on test procedures):
http://www.nlectc.org/pdffiles/04AddendumB.pdf

The FN 5.7 round will penetrate Level II and IIIa vests just fine. Not only that, but it will do it without the need for the steel core, the illegal for civilians to own steel core AP ammo. The jacket lead core ammo goes through kevlar just fine.

How is this possible? Simple. Its pointy like military ball ammo that will zip right through a vest, even lead core FMJ. The kevlar works by esstentially 'catching' the incoming round in the weave and dispersing the energy over a fairly wide area as the kevlar is impacted by the bullet. This works great for most round nosed pistol ammo, shotgun pellets, etc. However, the kevlar weave is a poor performer at stopping stabbing implements like ice picks and stiletto knives. The FN 5.7 lead core FMJ round will pass through the kevlar just like an ice pick. Ice picks and pionty military ball-type ammo penetrates by using the point to pass between the fibers, thereby negating the fibers' ability to catch the incoming round.

Prove it. The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms says you're wrong.

Rifle ammunition penetrates Kevlar by overloading and breaking enough fibers to penetrate, not by slipping between them. Blunt softpoints will penetrate just as well; the key is velocity.

When a 9mm hits a vest, the fibers in the first layer decelerate the projectile and absorb its kinetic energy until they break. It's a war of attrition between the kinetic energy of the projectile and the energy absorption capability of the Kevlar. If you run out of Kevlar before the projectile runs out of kinetic energy, you have a penetration.

To slip between the fibers, you have to have a projectile material hard enough to resist deformation under severe loading, i.e. the sharpened steel tip of an icepick. Federal law bans hard projectiles from handgun ammunition and .223, 7.62x39mm, and 7.62x51mm/.308 rifle ammunition, so that point is moot.

Note that when folks talk of armor piercing ammo, they are not referring to ammo that will pierce soft armor. They are talking about piercing hard armor.

When the prohibitionist lobby talks of armor piercing ammunition, they are often speaking of Kevlar-piercing, not military AP. That was the criterion by which Senator Kennedy called .30-30 Winchester "armor piercing" during a memorable floor debate during the 2004 session, if you recall.

 

[Zundfolge]

Damn the Brady Campaign!

I didn't want a FiveseveN until they started whining ... now I have to have one
(and I'm still saving up for my .50BMG so I can shoot down airliners as they fly over the house)

 

[caduckgunner]

if the Brady freaks say it's bad, I'm sure it will be banned in the People Republik of kalifornistan

 

[one-shot-one]

two points

1. less talk more shooting.(think they could have found a more boring guy to narrate this?)
2. the officer that is hit by that shotgun slug will only live if the bg doesn't walk over and finish him while he is immobilized from the 1st shot.:banghead:

 

[mcosman]

Great promotional video..I am going to go buy one ASAP.

Double Naught and benEzra - My Pops would say you are in "Violent agreement" It's both ends of the same argument.

Also- I was able to buy armor piercing .223 at a local gun show. Are you sure it's illegal? Honest question.

 

[P-35/53]

I find this post fascinating for a couple of reasons. Last year sometime there was a big furor here in the papers as two local Police chiefs came out against this gun and ammo. The paper went to local gun shops in the county and found 1 gun and I think two places you could buy ammo. shortly after that it was found out that the Chiefs were acting on a handout by the Brady bunch. This tells me that they have not got much traction with this issue but they are loading up to try again. Ithink there real goal is to search for that magic idea that will give the gun grabbers there totalatarian dream.

 

[mbs357]

What they fail to tell you is that if a person is shot with a .357 magnum or .44 magnum that they will suffer massive internal damage and bleeding and probably die anyway, but the 5.7 just goes through the vest.
I'd MUCH rather be shot by the 5.7mm than by a .44 magnum.
5.7 will:
Go through the vest, go through you, maybe. Tiny hole.
.44 magnum will:
Stop at the vest, but transfer its energy through it and into you, damaging an area the size of a softball. Breaking bones, internal bleeding, all those fancy doctor words.

Penetration is directly inproportionate to killing power.


*disclaimer: I'm not an expert, everything I've said here (at least some of it) are generalized and based on my own reasoning. Which I'm pretty sure is better than the Brady Campaign's.

 

[Guns_and_Labs]

if the Brady freaks say it's bad, I'm sure it will be banned in the People Republik of kalifornistan

Yep. A local gun store is ordering a bunch, for sale as soon as a bill banning them is introduced. They made a BUNCH of money on 50BMG's not that long ago.

And yes, I'm on the list for one of them.

 

[misANTHrope]

Funny how later when he opened it up, he found the 9mm, which had bounced off...then the 12g slug had bounced off. Later, it was pulled from the vest.

Anyone else notice that the lead solid slug he showed didn't appear to be deformed at all? I thought that was a bit suspicious, especially in light of how they had to go off-camera to pull it out...

 

[rero360]

+1 mbs357, they didn't take that into account at all, when I saw that vest after they hit it with the slug, all I could think is, that dude would be dead, between that little video and the new Splinter Cell, Chaos Theory, I want one of those five sevens

 

[Kurush]

The FN 5.7 round will penetrate Level II and IIIa vests just fine. Not only that, but it will do it without the need for the steel core, the illegal for civilians to own steel core AP ammo. The jacket lead core ammo goes through kevlar just fine.

This is a quote from ATF FTB: "According to FNH USA, FN Herstal tested the SS192 ammunition. SS192 ammunition did not penetrate the Level IIIA vests that were tested. FNH USA states that SS196, Hornady V-Max 40 gr. bullets fired from a 4-3/4 inch barrel did not penetrate the Level II vests that were used in testing. "

So the steel penetrator-less 5.7 does not penetrate IIIa, but only II. Just like some loadings of steel penetrator-less 9mm do.

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

I think the 12 ga. slug killed whoever would have been wearing that vest.

I'm loading up my Blackhawk and Ballester for an afternoon of finger pulling fun.

Vick

 

[Valkman]

My neighbor brought his FiveSeven over and I was impressed. It has the huge double-stack grip (I'm used to 1911's) but it just feels like quality. Gotta get me one - and some dies if/when they're available.