Former Sheriff Deputy Advising Carrying on Empty Chamber

[Ranger Roberts]

It can actually be done with Makarov pistol and special holster that works the slide to chamber a round when the pistol is withdrawn from it.

I saw one of these holster years ago. Weren't they discontinued due to soldiers shooting themselves in the leg while attempting to draw their weapon? I may be wrong but I sort of remember that is the reason they never caught on for any general purpose use.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Posted by: rondog
And Glocks - I've never touched a Glock or any other similar pistol of the newer generations. All I know is if it doesn't have a hammer, and the only visible safety is a little flipper thing on the trigger itself, that makes me nervous. I've heard of too many "accidents" with Glocks going off because something got inside the trigger guard.

There was a cop here in my area that shot himself in the leg with his Glock, he was holstering it at the range and the hem of his jacket got in the trigger guard as the gun went in the holster, defeating the trigger safety and depressing the trigger. BANG.

Yes, this is definitely something you have to watch for with a Glock or other similar designs. Really, you should watch for things like this with any sidearm. I do understand your concern and respect your position on your choice of carry guns. My primary carry gun happens to be a gen3 Glock 23 and you can bet I am very cognizant of my clothes and other things when holstering that gun (any gun, actually).

 

[Hokkmike]

When I used a semi (now use a revolver) I always left the chamber empty in my night stand gun It gave me one more layer of safety allowing me to think after just being roused from sleep so that I would be fully awake before considering any action.

Hope I explained this OK.....

 

[rondog]

When I used a semi (now use a revolver) I always left the chamber empty in my night stand gun It gave me one more layer of safety allowing me to think after just being roused from sleep so that I would be fully awake before considering any action.

Hope I explained this OK.....

Perfectly! My bedside 1911 is cocked, locked, and ready to rock, just have to click off the safety. But the M1 Carbine next to it is kept with the chamber empty, I consider that one to be for a little more serious social situations, it's loaded with angry, powerful, aggressive hollowpoints that have bad attitudes. So is the 1911, for that matter.

 

[SouthernBoy]

Posted by: Hokkmike
When I used a semi (now use a revolver) I always left the chamber empty in my night stand gun It gave me one more layer of safety allowing me to think after just being roused from sleep so that I would be fully awake before considering any action.

My nightstand gun resides in a friction retention holster, in full battery. This virtually precludes the off chance of grabbing that gun when awakening from a nightmare and using it by mistake. Our home is a two story so there is the luxury of a little time and distance. In a single story home, my plan would be different.

 

[Extreme moderate]

Such as what gun? If it's striker-fired, has a decocker, but doesn't have a hammer....then how would you re-cock it to make it ready again? I won't carry something like that.

The walther p99 AS is striker fired with a decocker... Just like a traditional DA pistol. It's my favorite in many ways. When you chamber a round, you can hit the decocker, and you're left with a long DA first shot, reset is almost nothing, and light SA follow up shots. If it light strikes, you're back to the DA longer pull, just like true double action. With all of the glocklike striker advantages... I can assure you there's no hammer. You should try one, just make sure it's the AS model of the p99.

Also, with all of the talk about negligent discharges when holstering, there's an easy solution in most everyday cases. Use a good IWB holster, and leave the gun in the holster when you remove/replace it. Very difficult to get your shirttail in the trigger guard if the trigger is behind a layer of leather.

 

[Cee Zee]

Certain pistols were certainly never intended to be carried with a round in the tube. A Tokarev for example. You don't want to carry one of those with a round in the chamber. It would be a time bomb with the hammer and no safety (that works anyway). I actually carried one at time in my life when I had less money because it is a powerful round and inexpensive to operate. It was actually a war sidearm intended for use when you knew the battle was coming your way. You have time to rack the slide in those situations.

Another thing that always makes me wonder when this discussion comes up. We all accept that you don't store a round in a shotgun chamber yet they are considered the cat's meow for home defense. People even think racking the slide is an intimidating act. So why is it ok to have to load a round in a shotgun chamber but not in a handgun chamber? Things can jump off quick in either situation.

BTW I carry a round in the tube every time. I have long since parted ways with my Tokarev and a big part of the reason I did was because I couldn't carry it with a round in the chamber.

 

[jmr40]

I'm in the minority here, but there is a time and place for having a semi with an empty chamber. All of my guns are stored in the safe, with a loaded magazine with an empty chamber. There is a handgun stored and secured in my vehicles at all times in the same condition.

If one of my guns is holstered the chamber is always loaded. Especially if it is on my side. But when unholstered in my vehicles for example, it is faster to retrieve the gun and chamber a round than it is to retrieve a gun with a loaded chamber and get it out of the holster. I wouldn't leave a loaded unholstered gun anywhere, not just Glocks or other striker fired guns. Even a revolver could get cocked unintentionally if left unholstered.

Even if someone chooses to carry unchambered, it is not nearly the disadvantage some believe. With practice it is pretty fast to get into action. The only real disadvantage is doing so when you are unable to use 2 hands.

For someone who owns multiple guns with different operating systems, SA with safety, DA/SA, DAO, etc. it simplifies things and makes all of them operate exactly the same. I could see someone making the decision to go this route rather than worry about whether the safety is on or off. If the 1st trigger pull will be a heavy DA pull or a light SA pull.

 

[Onward Allusion]

The only time I now carry with an empty chamber is pocket carry without any type of holster, and I rarely do that. An empty chamber is almost as useless as an empty gun, but that's just me.

 

[blueridgerunner]

In 20 years in Law Enforcement I have NEVER heard any training officer advocate carrying a weapon with an unloaded chamber. If things go sideways there might not be time to chamber a round. And just an aside, being a law enforcement officer does not automatically confer expert status on anyone. I have known some that were more dangerous to themselves or fellow officers when holding or discharging a weapon.

 

[mdauben]

All of my guns are stored in the safe, with a loaded magazine with an empty chamber

If one of my guns is holstered the chamber is always loaded.

This makes perfect sense to me. I keep one in the pipe on all "ready" guns, but if in storage the chamber is empty. I do keep off-body "ready" guns (night stand, etc.) in an inexpensive nylon holster. It keeps my finger out of the trigger guard if I'm groping for the gun in the dark while still half-asleep, its quicker and (IMO at least) its more intuative to flip off that piece of fabric than to remember to rack the slide in an emergency.

Even if someone chooses to carry unchambered, it is not nearly the disadvantage some believe.

I don't know. I think needing two hands to ready a gun to fire in an emergency situation is a big disadvantage. Admittely there are "tricks" to rack a slide with only one hand, but IMO they require a lot of practice and still insert a degree of unreliability into the situation. Everyone is of course free to carry how they want, but for me its with a loaded chamber no mater what gun I'm using.

For someone who owns multiple guns with different operating systems, SA with safety, DA/SA, DAO, etc. it simplifies things and makes all of them operate exactly the same.

This is why all my SD handguns are Glocks or Glock-like (striker fired, no manual safety). I don't want to worry about different operating systems in an emergency.

 

[JERRY]

OPOTA did not teach this in '96. dont know about now.

 

[rondog]

Another thing that always makes me wonder when this discussion comes up. We all accept that you don't store a round in a shotgun chamber yet they are considered the cat's meow for home defense. People even think racking the slide is an intimidating act. So why is it ok to have to load a round in a shotgun chamber but not in a handgun chamber? Things can jump off quick in either situation.

Home defense is one thing, unchambered guns at home aren't as much of a risk, but I"ll still keep the 1911 ready.

A pistol carried for CCW is an entirely different matter. If you get jumped on the street, in a store or parking lot, or while pumping gas, you're liable to wish your pistol had a round chambered.

JMHO.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Another thing that always makes me wonder when this discussion comes up. We all accept that you don't store a round in a shotgun chamber yet they are considered the cat's meow for home defense. People even think racking the slide is an intimidating act. So why is it ok to have to load a round in a shotgun chamber but not in a handgun chamber? Things can jump off quick in either situation.

Home defense is one thing, unchambered guns at home aren't as much of a risk, but I"ll still keep the 1911 ready.

A pistol carried for CCW is an entirely different matter. If you get jumped on the street, in a store or parking lot, or while pumping gas, you're liable to wish your pistol had a round chambered....

In addition, a shotgun is typically a two handed weapon. One expects to be using two hands with one, so chambering a round while deploying it should be readily doable.

A handgun is not a "handsgun." One might very well need to use it with only one hand available, and handguns are indeed frequently used effectively in self defense situations using only one hand.

 

[RX-178]

I will say that I HAVE had people recommend to me that I carry with an empty chamber.

Of course, they were always referring to my Glock 17L with the 3.5lb disconnector.

I don't even CARRY that one.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

If that is what he actually said, he is full of it. I phrased it that way because there are some older pistols that really aren't safe to carry chamber loaded and cocked and he could have been referring to one of those. Excluding those, if you carry chamber empty, it doesn't make a very good club.

 

[hang fire]

Keep in mind that there are a lot of firearms instructors that don't know what they are talking about. You hear these stories all the time, heard one the other day that the military uses the .223 round because those rounds are configured to hit bones and follow the bone and do maximum tissue damage....


It's entirely possible that some small police academy somewhere teaches this, because their firearms instructor heard this at some point and it made sense to him. So now he just teaches it.

Or the LEO are still carrying their old S&W Model 10 revolvers.

 

[Glock17Gen4]

Such as what gun? If it's striker-fired, has a decocker, but doesn't have a hammer....then how would you re-cock it to make it ready again? I won't carry something like that.

I own CZ-110.
It has no hammer, and after decocking if one is required to fire the first shot more accurately (in single action mode) it is possible to cock the striker by partially retracting the slide by approximately 10 mm (0.4 in).

 

[Mr Woody]

I guess I will come down on both sides of this fence; )

I can see no reason why modern revolvers and semi-autos would not be fine to carry fully loaded. This is a non issue with me.

Now for our favorite 1911 style single action semi autos. I carried one for many years as an officer and have many thousands of rounds through them. I carried mine chambered and locked in a holster with a strap between the hammer and frame. I became paranoid about checking to be sure the lock was still up. Sometimes it was not.

For concealed carry I never recommend the single action auto to new shooters. When they don't listen to me, I suggest the empty chamber carry because they have not developed the skills to handle or carry the 1911 both effectively and safely.

I don't know what kind of gun the new shooter was using that the OP was talking about.

The modern double action pistols are good enough now days there is no need to carry the single action. That does not mean that I don't like the 1911 style pistol, I still own a couple and like to shoot them.

No, you don't have to agree with me but I hope you can understand why I think this way.
W

 

[sota]

When I started on my journey I read alot of articles, threads and commentaries about this exact subject. Here's what I came to as the conclusion as to what I felt comfortable with...

Hammer fired DA/SA pistol, no safety, w/ decocker, chambered round, hammer down. Hence my choice of the HK P30 v3.

My reasoning...
I don't want to worry about a safety switch being manipulated in times of crisis.
I do want the added security of a heavier first pull.
I do want to be able to ride the hammer while holstering.

If I'm drawing there's a 99% chance i'll be making the loud noise. For that 1% when presentation makes someone change their attitude I want the initial DA pull to give me the ability to cease before I have to add squishy holes to someone.

I practice thumbing the decocker before I even start my holster motions, so the firearm is now in DA mode with my thumb on the hammer. It's been proven you'll break various bits inside the gun before the hammer will budge from the trigger being snagged. (please don't think the parts are weak though. it takes ALOT of force to break them... far more than you're likely to encounter while trying to holster, unless you're bearing down on the firearm like a maniac.)

That's why I chose what I chose, and carry the way I carry.

 

[mdauben]

Well I guess the two of them were talking about carrying concealed and his buddy (former sheriff deputy) says that he was taught in police academy to carry on empty chamber and load a round as you draw.

My first impuse is to make a Barney Fife joke, but seriously I've never heard of a police officer in real life who carried an uploaded gun. I know some people are more comfortable with that mode of carry, but I would never do it myself, or recommend it to another.

 

[12many]

I don't know if that is best for police, but for an average citizen, I don't think it is that bad to carry or store like that. That is what I do and my dad always left the hammer on an empty chamber. Just balancing the risk. I would rather have to rack the slide, which does not take long, than have an AD. I never, and I mean never, want an AD.

 

[doc2rn]

Most prisoner transporters are trained this way. It is in case one of the inmates goes for a firearm they get a weapon that has to be brought into service or needs a magazine. In which case they usually get done in by the pocket firearm.

 

[Al Thompson]

I never, and I mean never, want an AD.

I can certainly respect that, but loaded or unloaded isn't really the key. One of the worst Negligent Discharges* I ever witnessed was a result of someone improperly clearing a 1911A1 and pulling the trigger to lower the hammer while allowing the muzzle to cover someone he was not intending to shoot.

I think that shooter would have been better served if the "4 Rules" were better known at the time. I'm certainly a proponent.



* An Accidental Discharge is generally a mechanical failure, a Negligent Discharge is generally human error, E.G., pulling the trigger on a firearm that was not cleared.

 

[12many]

Good input Al.

I will probably get flamed for this but sometime it seems like people go overboard with the 'cocked and lock' stuff. Yes, you will save a bit of time but for the average guy, (non-police/military) or someone not in very dangerous situation alot, it seems better for me (meaning me, not everyone) to leave the chamber empty.

It seems like I read the news article about ND or AD when the trigger gets caught on clothing, pushed on by another item in a bag (bad storage without holster also) or pulled by accident when the gun is dropped, or recently a kid picked it up and pulled the trigger fast. Those seems much more common than any story about the person who draw to shoot another person but was not fast enough or got shot because they had to rack the slide. In fact, I don't know if I have ever read an article that said someone got shot due to the time it took to rack the slide.

There are instances then I sense trouble or feel uneasy, have to walk the house, and then I will rack the slide, but otherwise I leave the chamber empty. A local gun store owner showed me the time difference between a draw and then a draw while racking the slide and it was less than a second difference in time. It becomes part of the draw. Probably biggest risk is a jam.

For me it is a balancing of the risk and just wanted to chime in that there are people who leave the chamber empty out of an abondance of caution. This may be best for some members of this forum. It is not wrong IMO. This will often prevent AD and ND. Many kids can not even rack the slide which hard for small hands. I was taught growing up in Montana to not put a round in the chamber until you intend to shoot but this was mostly hunting. I know others feel differently and strongly the other way and I am not saying their way is wong.

You are right, that it does not negate or minimize the need to follow the four rules. With so many new gun owners those are always very imporant to remember. There is such a big big responsibility that goes with owning guns.