General wisdom: If a pistol is what you use until you get to your rifle..

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Thermactor

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I've heard off and on the general aphorism of a handgun being the weapon you use to hold off the threat until you are in a position to access a rifle.

If that is true, would a rifle be the gun you use to hold off the enemy until you can get to your ATGM? And the ATGM being what you use until you can get to your howitzer? And a howitzer what you use until you can fight your way to your A-10 Thunderbolt? :D

Just kidding. But I'd like to know what the consensus is here on the pistol being what you use to defend yourself until you can get to the rifle.
 
I would suggest that statement has much applicability to a military situation, or even a drawn out law-enforcement siege/hostage incident, than it does to a civilian situation. I do not know, but would expect the number of times in the last 50 years that a civilian* fires on an assailant with a pistol, then retreats/moves to a location where a rifle is accessible, then lawfully resumes firing with that rifle could be counted on one hand. Protracted firefights with a civilian versus a criminal(s) just aren't common at all.

* Excluding mutual combat between, say, rival mafia crews or drug gangs.
 
A pistol is what I use to get to a rifle, and a rifle is what I use to give my FISTer time to finish his fire mission request?
 
We've had a few threads that circled around that idea, especially as relates to "truck guns."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=752143
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=663466

I once wrote this:

This is one of those things that illustrates so well the difference between the needs and tasks of military personnel and the armed citizen self-defender.

If you're a soldier or Marine engaged in fighting an armed conflict, you are guided by rules of engagement that allow, in fact require, you to participate in extended, long(er)-range hostilities. You're going to NEED a rifle to accomplish you job/duty (unless you're tasked with using even more powerful stuff ... like radios). If you're caught in a position where all you have on you is your handgun (and you even HAD a handgun) then you're fighting your way back to a rifle so you can continue to carry the fight to the enemy until that force is vanquished.

None of that has any direct analogy to civilian self-defense. There are hints of it here and there -- mostly in the "civil unrest" fantasies of some of the more ...enthusiastic... gun guys, where they're caught out in the yard by the lead element of the approaching mob and have to fight back into the house to grab a rifle and take up defensive positions at the bedroom window and pick off the main body of the attacking gang-banger posse ... or whatever.

But citizen self-defense is almost universally defined as fast, VERY short-range engagements between some good citizen just out "minding their own business" and one, two, or maybe a handful of attackers. Attackers who are out for quick monetary gain, usually, or at worst are looking for a soft victim for some process-predator assault. In these cases, the idea of a sustained fight in which you're offering a running active defense as you maneuver back to a strong-point and access more powerful weapons with which to drive off the assailants, just has no relevance.

We had a really interesting thread about this a year or two ago. One poster held firmly that he kept a rifle (SKS, I think) in his car, with the intent that, if he was attacked while out at the store or mall, he would use his handgun to fight his way back to the rifle stashed in his car.

My counter point was, "and then what?" Because if you have fought your way clear (or simply evaded) an active shooter situation, and you've made you way out into the parking lot to your car where you can get to your rifle. ... LEAVE! You've already successfully dealt with the self-defense issue.

We went 'round about it a few cycles with various "what ifs" thrown in. (What if my family is still in the mall and I've got to go back and find them? What if the shooter pursues me out into the parking lot? Etc.) But they all approached vanishingly small probability, and/or presented other more suitable solutions.

Self-defense encounters generally follow something pretty close to the "3 shots, 3 yards, 3 seconds" rule -- and your duty is to survive, escape, and evade. If you can't do that with your handgun, that rifle you're "fighting your way back to" doesn't even enter the picture.

So the idea of "...fight your way back..." is pretty much just a gung-ho soundbite that doesn't mean anything in a non-military context.
 
My train of thought has always lead me to believe that if I can't stop the threat in my home or on the street with what I have on me, I probably won't be able to. Generally, home invasions or attacks on the street escalate in less than 60 seconds.

If that is true, would a rifle be the gun you use to hold off the enemy until you can get to your ATGM? And the ATGM being what you use until you can get to your howitzer? And a howitzer what you use until you can fight your way to your A-10 Thunderbolt?

I had to chuckle at this because I have used a similar analogy when discussing the merits of different calibers for CC weapons. Some folks don't seem to think you can defend yourself with anything less than an AA gun with 6 extra cans of ammo:)
 
Thermactor said:
But I'd like to know what the consensus is here on the pistol being what you use to defend yourself until you can get to the rifle.

Outside of military/LE incidents, I've never heard or read of an instance where this was the case.

To me, it's just another often repeated bogus internet phrase similar to "the 22LR has killed more people than any other caliber."

Seems that some pick up this stuff like a Hoover and just can't wait to repeat it online. ;)
 
Keep an AR pistol next to your bed, that way you have a pistol that fires a rifle round :neener: !!

In all seriousness, I do actually have my SBR in a safe very close to my bed. I keep my pistol in a nightstand, as does my wife. An immediate threat would be dealt with using my pistol. Though if I have time to get to it, I would rather use my SBR. 30 round magazines are a bonus in any situation!
 
I've always sort of wanted to go all "Gecko45" and write a narrative about being mugged, drawing my handgun and engaging the threats -- and then fighting my way back down the street to my car, fighting through traffic back home, tactically retreating up the driveway and into the house, pieing corners and room-clearing up to the gun safe, trying to keep overwatch on the approaches while I work the dial, retrieve my rifle, find ammo, load, turn on the red-dot, and prepare to fight off the remaining attackers!

:D

That would be even funnier than the story I'll write about being surrounded by a hostile mob while driving in the inner city and fighting free with the rifle I keep stored in my trunk...
 
I've always sort of wanted to go all "Gecko45" and write a narrative about being mugged, drawing my handgun and engaging the threats -- and then fighting my way back down the street to my car, fighting through traffic back home, tactically retreating up the driveway and into the house, pieing corners and room-clearing up to the gun safe, trying to keep overwatch on the approaches while I work the dial, retrieve my rifle, find ammo, load, turn on the red-dot, and prepare to fight off the remaining attackers!

:D

That would be even funnier than the story I'll write about being surrounded by a hostile mob while driving in the inner city and fighting free with the rifle I keep stored in my trunk...
Like Will Smith did in "I Am Legend?"
 
Gecko45: The stuff legends are made of. Special forces mall security at its finest.

I used a rock and fought my way to atomic weaponry.


I mean, I would tell you the story buuuut...OPSEC, COMSEC, gag orders, Top secret Congressional hearings and NINJAS.
 
I've always sort of wanted to go all "Gecko45" and write a narrative about being mugged, drawing my handgun and engaging the threats -- and then fighting my way back down the street to my car, fighting through traffic back home, tactically retreating up the driveway and into the house, pieing corners and room-clearing up to the gun safe, trying to keep overwatch on the approaches while I work the dial, retrieve my rifle, find ammo, load, turn on the red-dot, and prepare to fight off the remaining attackers!

:D

That would be even funnier than the story I'll write about being surrounded by a hostile mob while driving in the inner city and fighting free with the rifle I keep stored in my trunk...

Please enlighten us.
I'm a real sucker for fan fiction.
Fan art would be the real icing on the cake for your narrative.
 
Gecko45: The stuff legends are made of. Special forces mall security at its finest.

I used a rock and fought my way to atomic weaponry.


I mean, I would tell you the story buuuut...OPSEC, COMSEC, gag orders, Top secret Congressional hearings and NINJAS.

Gecko45 said:
We would never consider using any missles larger than our modified surplus Shrikes, Hellfires are completly out of the question. also, ourgolf carts are modified, and can take abouse alot tougher than golf balls..
You know... yes, the AGM-45s that are 10 feet long, weigh 390lbs and carry 150lb HE frag warheads.

In my example I stopped at the A-10 Thunderbolt. A man's got to know his limitations.
 
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Slightly back on topic, I agree with everyone that the whole trunk hun idea is rather silly. If you're capable of returning to your truck to retrieve a rifle/ SBR, you're capable of leaving the scene. You're responsible for your own safety. Running back into an active shooter scenario with a rifle sounds like a great way to get shot or thrown in prison.
 
Im a fan of the idea of having a backup, but "fighting" to my jeep to retreive a rifle/shotgun is silly there is one situation where getting a long-gun from a backseat could be justifiable, i would have to check with my lawyer though. Thats more military wisdom than anyrhing. Besides if i cant stop a threat with 27 roubds of .45 acp i always have my axe...
 
There are only a handful of times where I put a firearm in my vehicle. Usually when going through a bad section of town to get to a restaurant I like or a gun store etc. Typically it is my 12ga because of ammo selection and versatility. I don't keep it there as a pistol -> shotgun fight back option, but as the primary option. The way my vehicle is laid out, I can reach my shotgun from the driver's seat if need be. Otherwise I just carry more ammo for my primary firearm and/or carry a BUG.

The only other time I have a long gun in the vehicle is for hunting in case of a SHTF type situation on long trips.
 
I would suggest that statement has much applicability to a military situation, or even a drawn out law-enforcement siege/hostage incident, than it does to a civilian situation. I do not know, but would expect the number of times in the last 50 years that a civilian* fires on an assailant with a pistol, then retreats/moves to a location where a rifle is accessible, then lawfully resumes firing with that rifle could be counted on one hand. Protracted firefights with a civilian versus a criminal(s) just aren't common at all.

Depending on what comes out of Ferguson MO, those ideas might change...........
 
I can't think of any non-LEO/military stories of a given person actually fighting their way back to a long gun with their pistol.

At Thunder Ranch, I heard Clint Smith repeat the mantra that a pistol is the weapon you use to fight your way back to your rifle that you should not have put down in the first place. Neither time did he have a rifle with him when he said this and he was in a position/job where he could carry a rifle at work, no problem.

Playing on what Sam1911 said concerning citizen engagements, the only way I am going to have time to get back to my rifle is when I run out of pistol ammo and even then, there may be better directions to run.

There is no battle plan I have practiced or have been taught or even told that I need to be practicing by the myriad of instructors that I have had that could even remotely be called the "Fight you way back to your rifle" drill.

Imagine the home scenario for the drill. "You answer the door to a person you think you know, only to find yourself facing bad guys. Through a distraction or miracle, you are able to draw and start firing at them before they kill you outright. As you fire, you tactically retrograde to the location of your rifle, fending off bad guys as you go."

Comments above were a greatly expanded version of this, but has anyone else here been to defensive gun schools and completed this drill in a shoot house? Were you encouraged to practice it at home in some form? If so, did the drill include collecting and safing family members along the way?
 
I've always sort of wanted to go all "Gecko45" and write a narrative about being mugged, drawing my handgun and engaging the threats -- and then fighting my way back down the street to my car, fighting through traffic back home, tactically retreating up the driveway and into the house, pieing corners and room-clearing up to the gun safe, trying to keep overwatch on the approaches while I work the dial, retrieve my rifle, find ammo, load, turn on the red-dot, and prepare to fight off the remaining attackers!

:D

That would be even funnier than the story I'll write about being surrounded by a hostile mob while driving in the inner city and fighting free with the rifle I keep stored in my trunk...

Sam1911,

These are serious daily concerns for some people that you should not be ridiculing. I was once surrounded by a hostile mob while driving in an inner city shopping mall garage. It was back when I was still carrying a .45 Colt Government Model. I first realized I was in trouble when the two lane garage driveway I was on was blocked off by trucks in front of me and behind me. Suddenly a countless number of rioters with their hands filled with all manner of bats, machetes, axes, hockey sticks, etc., came rushing out from behind parked cars screaming for the blood of the Yuppie Scum. Staying cool, I climbed through my open sunroof to the roof of my custom ‘68 Cadillac. It was not until I shot-up two magazines of ammo, making a perfect 1 second reload, that I knew I was not going to persuade the surviving hundreds of rioters to go away. Fortunately I always knew a pistol is the weapon you use to fight your way back to your rifle that you should not have put down in the first place so I was prepared to use even greater firepower. Leaning back through the open sun roof I pushed the second button on the remote control for my garage door opener. Immediately the M60 GPMG mounted on a swivel mount in my trunk powered by a garage door opener began to fire hundreds of armor piercing bullets in a 360 degree pattern through the car body below my feet into the writhing bodies of my attackers. It was a close run affair, the M60 jammed just seconds before an elite special forces mall security unit, commanded by a charismatic man who later would only identify himself by his cover name of Gecko45, finally arrived to rescue me from the surviving rioters. It is almost needless to say I vowed to never again place myself in such a dangerous situation so I upgraded to a Glock with two 30 round magazines and a water cooled 1917 Browning with a 5000 round belt. ;)
 
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At Thunder Ranch, I heard Clint Smith repeat the mantra that a pistol is the weapon you use to fight your way back to your rifle that you should not have put down in the first place. Neither time did he have a rifle with him when he said this and he was in a position/job where he could carry a rifle at work, no problem.

Yeah, he's often named, as are others. And I really think that it illustrates that very respected people can fall into the trap of repeating things that are "truthy" but not actually true.

I think a lot of these things are latched onto by the trainers who've come out of the military. This one, the mantra of the immaculately clean gun (happily fading these days), the idea that the rifle is universally superior to the handgun, even the more philosophical tropes about "running to the sound of the guns" or whatever. Some of these are silly, some are irrelevant due to being out of context. Some might even be dangerous, or encourage an armed citizen to step beyond what is legal.
 
Dagnabit! Nom beat me to it! :D

You did forget the second layer of SAPI plates duct-taped on my back.

I've since upgraded and installed front and rear ERA panels in my carrier! That'll be impressive when the terrorists score a hit on me! :D
 
I don't think the phrase was ever intended to be taken literally. It is just a colorful way of stating that a rifle is usually a better option than a handgun.
 
Good question, and I've given that answer a few times. Realistically, inside my house if 14+1 (backed up by 14) of 9 mm in the bedroom is not enough, the AR probably would not have made a difference.

But, if I'm anywhere else in the house or on the property, I'm probably going to the AR first if possible
 
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