Glock 23 KaBoom w/Wolf ammo
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I just had a case rupture this afternoon.I was shooting Miwall brand 10mm in a Glock model 29.It stung my hand,blew the magazine down about an inch.As I was slowly processing the info,I looked down and the case was at my feet,they usually eject about 5 feet.I shot another 150 rounds without incident.I don't have a camera,so no picture to post.
It's amazing how they can't discuss, they have to put words in your mouth.
I never said no other pistol kb'ed. There have been home ammo makers blowing up guns as long as I've been shooting, and before.
But catastrophic failures, with factory ammo..... never seen one in any other gun......
BluesBear
member
Even if the other person is absolutely and completely WRONG, they've usually got a decently thought-out argument to back up their clueless posts (M.Irwin TFL 07-12-2001)
Well this thread shoots that theory in the foot.
It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. (Baba Louie THR 09/29/03)
Amen.
Well this thread shoots that theory in the foot.
It would appear that for some, no explanation is required... for others, no explanation will do. (Baba Louie THR 09/29/03)
Amen.
The Drew
Member
NO GUN should EVER KB with factory ammo unless that ammo is defective!!! Or there are other circumstances such as barrel obstruction...
So by stating that glocks KB with factory ammo, there either must be maintenance issues or a flaw in the weapon... Mainly because if it is a problem with factory ammo... the KB's would be distributed across the board, and there would be recalls...
So by stating that glocks KB with factory ammo, there either must be maintenance issues or a flaw in the weapon... Mainly because if it is a problem with factory ammo... the KB's would be distributed across the board, and there would be recalls...
Jamie C.
Member
A bad round? Sure.... I've had more than one box of ammo that contained a cartridge with the primer in sideways, upside down, crooked, no powder in the case, etc.
But one with enough of an over-charge to take a gun apart?
Hasn't happened yet, in more than 30 years.
And the thing that stands out the most, to me, in the post at the beginning of this thread is this: "The whole chamber disintegrated!.....The rest of the chamber was in very small pieces."
This screams "Bad Heat Treatment" to me.
It sounds like the chamber was extremely brittle. Otherwise, the steel would have just bent or "peeled" back, not shattered into small fragments like it was made of glass or cast iron.
And no, having a chamber/barrel that's too brittle doesn't rule out the possibility of an over-charge as well.... but it does make it possible that the chamber area was already stressed to the point that it would have "given up" on a normal pressure cartridge, since one of the processes in heat treatment is to "normalize" or temper the steel to remove the heat-induced stresses built up by forging or casting.
J.C.
The Drew
Member
I never implied that factories NEVER put out bad rounds from time to time... It is going to happen... but if you READ what I wrote, I said that unless that ammo is defective... And if that is the case, it shouldn't only be glocks that are going KB!
Jamie C.
Member
Whatever the case, something made the steel in the chamber brittle, from the sounds of things.
Whether it was something done at the foundry that produced their stock, or something Glock themselves did, I don't know. But one way or the other, the evidence, such as it is, points to steel that's way too hard and not "flexible" enough.
"Soft" steel tears more than it breaks or shatters. And since the tennifer coating is supposed to be a surface treatment, like case hardening, it should have left plenty of soft material underneath to act as a "shock absorber" of sorts.
Or at least this is what I've been led to believe.
Once again, only Glock themselves can really clear this up.
J.C.
Whether it was something done at the foundry that produced their stock, or something Glock themselves did, I don't know. But one way or the other, the evidence, such as it is, points to steel that's way too hard and not "flexible" enough.
"Soft" steel tears more than it breaks or shatters. And since the tennifer coating is supposed to be a surface treatment, like case hardening, it should have left plenty of soft material underneath to act as a "shock absorber" of sorts.
Or at least this is what I've been led to believe.
Once again, only Glock themselves can really clear this up.
J.C.
Jamie C.
Member
Y'know, Elmer, maybe we're looking at this wrong.....
Maybe the "perfect" gun is supposed to explode without notice, every now and then.
J.C.
Maybe the "perfect" gun is supposed to explode without notice, every now and then.
J.C.
Walt Sherrill
Member
I don't have any sources immediately at hand, but am pretty sure that the tennifer treatment is done, in lieu of finishes, as a surface treatment, and not as a replacement for heat treatment. Both Glock and SIG then apply a finish of some sort. Removing that finish doesn't affect the metal that has received the Tennifer treatment. (I have not read anywhere that it was used on the barrels -- not denying or affirming.)
Heat treatment would affect a gun's response to pressure, etc. Tennifer would affect the ability of the surface to resist scratching and, maybe, some forms of wear, such as the ability of locking lugs on the barrel to resist peening when locking up with the slide. That's not a big issue with Glocks or SIGs, etc., because of their lockup system.
Heat treatment goes all the way through.
Heat treatment would affect a gun's response to pressure, etc. Tennifer would affect the ability of the surface to resist scratching and, maybe, some forms of wear, such as the ability of locking lugs on the barrel to resist peening when locking up with the slide. That's not a big issue with Glocks or SIGs, etc., because of their lockup system.
Heat treatment goes all the way through.
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Walt Sherrill
Member
I did searches, but I'm doing this from work, in some slack moments, and many sites are blocked on our system. I'll have to pursue it later, when I get home (or over the weekend.)
You may be correct, but the use of Tennifer in place of heat treatment seems counter-intuitive; I had understood that Glock and SIG used similar processes on all of the external metal of their respective gun, as protection.
I've not seen any other use of the treatment mentioned. That doesn't mean it isn't so, only that I've not seen it -- until this discussion. I'll be looking.
You may be correct, but the use of Tennifer in place of heat treatment seems counter-intuitive; I had understood that Glock and SIG used similar processes on all of the external metal of their respective gun, as protection.
I've not seen any other use of the treatment mentioned. That doesn't mean it isn't so, only that I've not seen it -- until this discussion. I'll be looking.
Marshall
Member
Something interesting that I found.................
Link to page.
Glock K-Boom
From: M.A.H.
Date: 23 December 2001
Dear Dean,
The pics of the G35 are pretty dynamic. Having been an employee of the company, I can tell you there are other factors besides the unsupported case head that are causing the Glocks to let go. I was with the company when the .40 caliber guns first came out. I was the Regional Law Enforcement Sales Manager for a rep group in the West. I started getting phone calls about catostrophic failures and, initially, wrote them off as the results of poorly reloaded ammo.
Then I started getting calls from guys I know and trusted, who were having the same problem with factory fodder. I now work for another major firearms maker, (American made, American owned, finally) so I have to be careful how and what I say about the competition, else it sound like sour grapes. But I will tell you that Glock uses no other heat treat of their barrels other than the Tenifer coating, which was never intended to be anything other than a wear surface. They use 4100 series re-sulpherized steel which hammer forges beautifully and has a tensile strength of about 36,000 psi. The 9mms don't seem to have the problems of the .40s due to the added dimensional thickness, (smaller bore). I still teach at a regional POST certified police academy, and have personally witnessed two catastrophic failures in about six years. Both with fairly new pistols. I will not allow family members to own or shoot a Glock Pistol unless it has a Bar-Sto or some other after market barrel.
I can also tell why the pistols do let go, very unpredictably, but it gets fairly long and detailed. This is straight from White Labs in a report to Amarillo, TX PD, who is suing Glock over failures and injuries. This is just my two cents worth and you may already know this stuff.
Take Care!
M.A.H.
Link to page.
Glock K-Boom
From: M.A.H.
Date: 23 December 2001
Dear Dean,
The pics of the G35 are pretty dynamic. Having been an employee of the company, I can tell you there are other factors besides the unsupported case head that are causing the Glocks to let go. I was with the company when the .40 caliber guns first came out. I was the Regional Law Enforcement Sales Manager for a rep group in the West. I started getting phone calls about catostrophic failures and, initially, wrote them off as the results of poorly reloaded ammo.
Then I started getting calls from guys I know and trusted, who were having the same problem with factory fodder. I now work for another major firearms maker, (American made, American owned, finally) so I have to be careful how and what I say about the competition, else it sound like sour grapes. But I will tell you that Glock uses no other heat treat of their barrels other than the Tenifer coating, which was never intended to be anything other than a wear surface. They use 4100 series re-sulpherized steel which hammer forges beautifully and has a tensile strength of about 36,000 psi. The 9mms don't seem to have the problems of the .40s due to the added dimensional thickness, (smaller bore). I still teach at a regional POST certified police academy, and have personally witnessed two catastrophic failures in about six years. Both with fairly new pistols. I will not allow family members to own or shoot a Glock Pistol unless it has a Bar-Sto or some other after market barrel.
I can also tell why the pistols do let go, very unpredictably, but it gets fairly long and detailed. This is straight from White Labs in a report to Amarillo, TX PD, who is suing Glock over failures and injuries. This is just my two cents worth and you may already know this stuff.
Take Care!
M.A.H.
BluesBear
member
Isn't anyone going to mention the propensity of .40 S&W ammo to achieve catastrophic pressures from simple bullet setback?
I am wondering if this is going to become a problem with .45gap ammo as its use becomes more widespread?
I am wondering if this is going to become a problem with .45gap ammo as its use becomes more widespread?
Glock Failures
While working at and taking classes at one of the "Name" schools, I noted that .40 Glocks would have the last 2-3 rounds in the magazines with set-back bullets. It was usually the very last rounds in the factory mags. Also noted was increased set-back with aluminum cased Blazer CCI .40 S&W ammo. At the end of a four-day class I had over 50 rounds. It was pointed out to the school instructional staff, I don't know if it went any further. With the flexing of the Glock frame and possibly the magazine, that could be one reason for set-back followed by LET-GO!
While working at and taking classes at one of the "Name" schools, I noted that .40 Glocks would have the last 2-3 rounds in the magazines with set-back bullets. It was usually the very last rounds in the factory mags. Also noted was increased set-back with aluminum cased Blazer CCI .40 S&W ammo. At the end of a four-day class I had over 50 rounds. It was pointed out to the school instructional staff, I don't know if it went any further. With the flexing of the Glock frame and possibly the magazine, that could be one reason for set-back followed by LET-GO!
Jamie C.
Member
Hmmm.... Makes me wonder if the Tenifer process is inadequate for relieving the stresses built up in the steel from the forging..... ( One of the necessary things that heat-treatment does. )
This very well could explain a lot.
J.C.
The 40 is a tricky cartridge, especially in the light weight, high velocity rounds. Those rounds are hard on guns, but less effective on targets.
When the Sig .40 first came out, I saw several of them that had rounds blow up in them. Blown extractor and cracked grip panels, but no peeled back like a banana look.....
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