Gun Seizures in NoLa...how did it occur?

[rdhood]

What I recall is that they wanted to move the holdouts out, and part of that plan was to disarm them so as to make them vulnerable and therefore inspired to evacuate.

I strongly believe that the framers of the Constitution, when writing the 2nd, considered this to be one of those situations where people should have a right to a gun, and ( an inferred) right to band together (in a militia) to (inferred) protect themselves.

One thing about the Heller/DC case: whether or not the 2nd is conferred upon an individual, is there any chance that they will define "militia"?

 

[ilbob]

My suspicion is that someone on high decided gun confiscation would be a good idea, for whatever reason and just ordered the cops to do it. As one would expect from a large group of human beings, a fair number of cops obeyed the unquestionably illegal and unconstitutional order. Most probably just ignored it, as all of them should have.

Since widespread misconduct was not punished in this case, it will probably happen again.

I seriously doubt anyone went to the trouble to lookup gun acquisition records. They just asked, and people stupid enough to talk to cops had their guns taken away.

 

[ceetee]

One thought that has been raised (but possibly not expanded on well enough) is the idea that in a real state of emergency, you have little or no actual communication with anything outside your own view. Many radio and TV stations suffer from not just power outages, but storm damage that takes them off the air. Cable TV relies on powered substations that don't work when the electric grid is down. Most places still have phone lines open to the air, not buried, and phone poles are among the first things to go in a high wind event. Unless you have a battery-powered radio or a generator, and enough time to sift through the airwaves looking for a decent signal, and then even more time to go through all the chaff to hear the news, you won't know what's going on in the city proper. And those stations that are on the air will mostly be broadcasting real emergency news, not "The cops are going house-to-house confiscating guns" alerts.

When the SHTF, like in Katrina, orders are given on the fly, sometimes with no real forethought as to the effects. Somewhere in Louisiana, there was a bunker with a "crisis management" team, sipping lattes and hot cocoa, and deciding from their own secondhand reports which neighborhoods were too damaged to provide safe habitation. Those neighborhoods were ordered evacuated. When the evac order is given, no questions are allowed. If you don't leave, you will be made to leave - at gunpoint if necessary. The cops really don't want to arrest you, because then they're responsible for your own care and feeding. So they rough you up, toss your place, and say "Come back and things will get really bad for you..." That's nor proper - it's just the way things are. In a "state of emergency", tempers flare, normalcy fades, and the only "normal" thing the cops have to look on is receiving orders, following orders, and making sure the peons also follow the orders.

Again - not proper, but that's the way things seem to go. Things are not quite that severe here in Florida... we seem to have enough experience with hurricane damage to work through it with a minimum of fuss. Others... not so much.

Lastly, some bright boy in the bunker says, "Geez... we've just created a ready supply of firearms for all those miscreants that we couldn't cow into leaving their homes. We'd better get them "off the street" so the (deserted) city can be made a safer place..." and more orders are given, and followed.

 

[RoadkingLarry]

SO, any word on the status of the stolen weapons and the owners fight to get them back?

 

[Mojo-jo-jo]

Unless you have a battery-powered radio or a generator, and enough time to sift through the airwaves looking for a decent signal, and then even more time to go through all the chaff to hear the news, you won't know what's going on in the city proper.

Not meaning to thread hijack, but this is why one should consider putting a police scanner and a complete frequency list (everything, including dogcatcher, road crew and sanitation-they use them all for other purposes in an emergency) for your locality in your 'SHTF' kit. I work with disaster communications (Amateur Radio Emergency Service) and have found that a police scanner is INVALUABLE to knowing what is actually going on in an emergency situation.

Food for thought.

 

[ceetee]

Yes, and no. Many agencies here still broadcast in the clear, but some have gone to digital radio systems that (AFAIK) can't be listened to on an ordinary scanner. I could be several decades out of date, though.




P.S.... Mojo-jojo - what are Blossom, Bubbles, and Buttercup up to these days? Have you managed to take over Townsville yet?

 

[TEDDY]

ignorance

I dont like to pis* on the posters but its obvious that none are NRA members.
NRA freedom mag has pictures of the remains of the guns that the NRA is inventoring.the california state police were involved and mayor ordered the confiscation.
as an aside in the south before ww2 and elsewhere many guns were available.some you never heard of.
the place was flooded.the stores were flooded paperwork would be gone.no they did not go to gun stores and look up numbers.they looked for people and as good citizens they answered the nice policemans questions.big mistake.
If this happened any where else the police would do the same if ordered to,because they want their job.
I could rant on.---------:banghead:----

 

[Mainsail]

There were reports of widespread looting and armed roving gangs in the streets. The ‘officials’ decided to order the disarmament of the people remaining, and like always happens, they succeeded in disarming only the law abiding. I’m sure it looked like a good idea on paper, too many guns – remove the guns – peace and tranquility will prevail, but the gangs and thugs were too difficult to effectively target. The people holed up in their homes were easy to find, and easy to be compelled into compliance.

 

[Daedalus7]

Yes, and no. Many agencies here still broadcast in the clear, but some have gone to digital radio systems that (AFAIK) can't be listened to on an ordinary scanner. I could be several decades out of date, though.

Yeah the scanners that can receive digital radio transmissions are still in the several hundred dollar range, but they are easy to find and getting cheaper all the time. Around me, LAPD uses a digital system (probably only for the extra range it gives them - the voices come out so digitized and "pixelated" - for lack of a better word - that its tough to understand sometimes). However, LAFD and other police departments use normal trunked systems, and many actually post their frequencies online.

A scanner is definitely a good idea.

 

[para40]

Ms.

I live in Ms, this thought process never even came up! When our Gov. heard of it, with the help of the NRA, passed legislation to prevent this from ever happening. In 2005 the US Congress did the same on the federal level, and Prez. Bush signed it. I do love my Red state! Bill

 

[rino451]

A couple of weeks ago, I spent some time trying to find out whether charges were actually filed against anyone. From what I could find, there were several cease and desist type orders requests filed with courts and I think that Police Chief Eddie Compass quit... Oh, and Nagin got re-elected.

I'm amazed that there was not a single criminal charge or constitutional violaton filed. Turn the tables, and there'd be a committee working with the DA trying to figure out which laws can be misinterpreted in order to stick us with more charges.

 

[mljdeckard]

Without bothering to read the whole thread,

A couple of weeks ago, Tom Gresham had a guest on Gun Talk who recently wrote a book about the situation. He asserts that Ray Nagin, as a result of overwhelmingly bad publicity about himself, out of desperation made the order. The NRA sought and received an injunction against it in federal court, which the neighboring parish respected, they immediately stopped confiscating guns. New Orleans didn't stop until confronted by a possible contempt charge from the court.

The guns were confiscated, those who asked for receipts were refused, no serial numbers were written down. The woman we keep referring to was assualted by officers from the California Highway Patrol who were brought in as reinforcements for the crisis. Aftet time in a shelter in another state, she got a real medical exam, and found out her shoulder had multiple fractures as a result of her assualt.

As for how they knew where to look, if he was specific, I don't remember, I think they were targeting homes with people still inside, and asking the people if they were armed, not going through empty homes looking for guns. Which makes sense, inasmuch as a gun in someone's hand is a more immediate threat to them than one that must be found randomly by looters.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Teddy, your assumption is wrong as stated. I am an NRA Life Member. You are correct though about the NRA providing good information and--with the Second Amendment Foundation--taking legal action to stop the confiscations, to help the affected gun owners to recover their property, and to punish the City. (Gun Owners of America of course issued its famous "Urgent Alerts!" Like the famous rooster, when it crows "Cock-a-doodle-doo" with the rising sun it takes credit for the sunrise.)

The NRA also has continued to inform gun owners about what happened. Here, for example, is a link to its video on Youtube NRA: The Untold Story of Gun Confiscation. Here is a link to one of several NRA press releases that gave gun owners information about the situation as it developed. There are others.

But the essential point you make is on target. People who don't know what happened are people who don't care enough to know or to help make it not happen again. I agree that usually they're not NRA members. NRA members carry those people.

 

[Sniper56]

Re: NOLA gun confiscation

For the most part this happened after the storm and the Mayor wanted everyone remaining in the city to leave. There were those who were prepared to stay and take care of themselves (i.e. had generators and supplies of gas, food, water, etc) and did not desire the help offered.

In at least one case they tried that crap with an attorney and CNN cameras were on the scene and rolling. Before it ended they decided to leave him to take care of himself; and yes he told them he had firearms in his home but they did not enter and search, I beleive he pointed out to them on camera that they had no legal basis since martial law had not been declared. In addition his home was high and dry with no fllod waters anywhere around it.

Officers were told to "encourage" them to leave in strongest possible terms.
That is what happened wit the elderly lady. People were asked to leave and asked if they had firearms, if answer was yes to firearms they made effort to confiscate them so the homeowner felt defensless and left.

I feel safe in saying this is not likely to happen in NOLA again because it really caused an uproar among the population and I doubt they will be so gullible next time.

 

[scurtis_34471]

Not to bash, but the police were acting outside the law and were therefore criminals. If a cop came to my door with a gun and ordered me to surrender my firearms and did not have a lawful court order to do so, he would be nothing more than an armed robber and I would feel free to defend my home. Period.

 

[Stretchman]

Not trying tio justify what they did, but that lady appeared to be inebriated and had a weapon in her hand. it wasn't until after she showed it to them that they tackled her and took it.

A lot of times people have something to do with their own situation. Ever think for a second that people were indiscriminately shooting each other? Looters shooting homeowners, homeowners shooting looters? Might have been why they acted as they did; helps to have the entire story.

But what are the odds of that?

 

[novaDAK]

If I have to prove I'm a good guy, they have to prove they're a cop.

Bust through my door with no warrant and expect the same treatment as a home invader.

 

[4sooth]

Gun Siezures

Mayor Ray Nagin,the Chief of Police and the city attorney were in February of this year found in contempt(for the second time) of a federal court order which directed them to return the firearms taken from people during the aftermath of hurricane Katrina.Virtually NO action has been taken by the police dept. or the city towards the furtherance of this order.

I have questioned numerous people about this(to include attorneys,police,our mayor,and various public officials) and no one seems to know who is responsible for enforcing this order.

If anyone knows or at least has some idea who or what agency normally enforces such directives from the federal courts,please share that info on this site.I am of the opinion that nothing will ever be done to force the city to comply.

While on the subject it is interesting to note that contrary to what you heard on TV about the resignation of Eddie Compass it had to do with large numbers of police being paid who were not actually working for the NOPD.He has reappeared as the director of another city agency again collecting a large salary for doing mostly nothing.

 

[ilbob]

If I have to prove I'm a good guy, they have to prove they're a cop.

Bust through my door with no warrant and expect the same treatment as a home invader.

Not very high roadish.

Remember THR rules on dealing with police misconduct.

1. Do not resist.

2. Hope they do not kill you.

3. If they don't kill you, complain after the fact.

 

[Guntalk]

A new book will be coming out later this month about the Great New Orleans Gun Grab. Check out this web site in about a week or so.

http://www.neworleansgungrab.com/

 

[XavierBreath]

HOW did they find out that the people had firearms? Was there a check of the BATF records?

The police asked people if they had guns. People trusted the police. The guns were confiscated.

Did they cite legal precedence when doing so?

No.

*IS* there any sort of legal precedence?

To my knowledge, among free, law abiding citizens in the United States, no.

Did they present warrants?

No.

How thorough were their searches of the homes.

Not very. Police were stretched thin, and mostly trying to compel people to evacuate.

Did guns that were buried/hid in unconventional locations make it through the confiscations? i.e. was the examination cursory, or a "tossing" of the residence?

Yes. Other people, notably Ashton O'Dwyer, whom I quote in my sig line refused to surrender their arms. Ashton is a well known attorney though (in fact, he is now representing Mrs. Konie) and police decided not to take him up on his challenge as he refused to surrender his arms on national television. A shotgun was openly kept behind the counter at Johnny White's bar. FWIW, Johnny White's never closed.

Lastly: I am quite curious just HOW they managed to get folks that were present when the various groups of law enforcement arrived, to admit to the authorities that they had firearms.

Again, police asked people if they had guns. People trusted the police. Many of the guns were long guns, not easily concealable. Louisiana law states a person may carry openly without restriction unless they are forbidden to own firearms. Louisiana law states a person can carry any legal firearm in any condition in their automobile or boat. The only restrictions to this is in the national forests, and in other forests when a game warden might believe the carrier is spotlighting or poaching game. Most people reasonably believed they could transport their own legally owned property as they evacuated, or possess that same property in their homes if they chose to stay. According to Louisiana law, they were right.

Go to this blog page of mine to view the NRA video on the subject, with testimony from some of those who had their guns taken. Over a thousand guns, both handguns and long guns were confiscated. Many have yet to be returned to their rightful owners.

I want to remind everyone participating in this thread to stay on the high road.

Tom, thanks for the link to the book. I'll be ordering my copy!

 

[ilbob]

People trusted the police.

You have to be careful who you trust and when.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Stretchman, millions of people have viewed the video of Patricia Konie being manhandled but you seem to be the only person who believes that "that lady appeared to be inebriated."

No one who was there said any such thing about her: not the reporters or the camera operators or even the armed men who manhandled her. Do elderly, frail people with slurred speech appear inebriated to you?

Patricia Konie did have a weapon in her hand. It was an old revolver and it wasn't until after she showed it to the armed men around her that they tackled her and took it. They most certainly did not take it away from her until she showed it to them.

In fact there's no evidence that the law enforcement officers in New Orleans took away even one single gun from someone who didn't have one or who they didn't know had one.

They only took guns away from people who had them and if they knew the people had them.

Criminals deserve credit too: none of them do not steal guns from people who do not have guns. The also do not steal money from people who don't have money, television sets from people who don't have them, or cars that don't exist either. They also do not steal that which they do not know exists.

Why is it okay that those armed men were in Patricia Konie's home and abducted her from it? If she was inebriated, as you think, why was it okay to beat her up so badly that she required surgery and was still in the hospital three months later, when this blog was written?

I haven't seen anyone else imply that Patricia Konie was indiscriminately shooting anyone, not even the same person more than once, and I don't think she was charged with any such thing.

 

[gyp_c2]

uhhhh...

...didn't they ask her to show them the gun, and then take her down?
Pretty sure they did...
With partial or no power for appliances, no local radio/tv, communication must've been word-of-mouth mostly...all kind of curfews and warnings about staying inside and limited ability to travel, even by foot...

I think they went house to house searching for hold-outs in the most likely places...Then proceeded to search and seize...I'm sure they were all wound pretty tight, the reports I remember seeing and hearing were that armed looters and gangs were roaming the streets and I'm sure that's what they were told in briefing...It was terrible for everyone and still is in some cases...The powers that be just went nuts and the results were heinous abuses of all kinds...

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

here's a good video to watch with many of the situations mentioned here in the thread.....
http://youtube.com/watch?v=gfzE0FnVWCg

It is N'Orleans with confiscations.

There seems to be some arbsurdity in the following argument;

Quote:
If I have to prove I'm a good guy, they have to prove they're a cop.

Bust through my door with no warrant and expect the same treatment as a home invader.

Not very high roadish.

Remember THR rules on dealing with police misconduct.

1. Do not resist.

2. Hope they do not kill you.

3. If they don't kill you, complain after the fact.

Didn't he mention he wasn't sre who the police were....so...you are saying "If they don't kill you complain later, and hope they are police"?

I can't say I agree with this.

st