HD Choice if mulitple armed assailants, body armor
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ForumSurfer
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Well I'm not too far from the rowan county incident mentioned earlier. I prefer to just keep it simple. I own multiple rifles, handguns and shotguns.
I ccw, and I keep that piece next to me as I sleep. If I have time to go for a long gun, I have the option of keeping a shotgun or the ar in the closet or under my bed. The AR holds more rounds, offers faster follow up shots and penetrates better (without over penetration given the right load.
Obviously I keep the shotgun in the safe and the rifle at the ready, but that is just my assumption on what I may need. My sidearm is my "grab in the middle of the night just in case" weapon and the long gun is my "I know the crap is hitting the fan and I have time to grab something big" weapon, so why not go for the one with more firepower? I'd love to keep a long arm bedside, preferably my 870 and my ar, but I don't feel it is safe for me based on the single quandary of what would happen if someone beat me to it during a home invasion. Maybe they know how to work it if I leave the bolt open or maybe not...I'd rather not have it too readily accessible if I'm not beside it.
I ccw, and I keep that piece next to me as I sleep. If I have time to go for a long gun, I have the option of keeping a shotgun or the ar in the closet or under my bed. The AR holds more rounds, offers faster follow up shots and penetrates better (without over penetration given the right load.
Obviously I keep the shotgun in the safe and the rifle at the ready, but that is just my assumption on what I may need. My sidearm is my "grab in the middle of the night just in case" weapon and the long gun is my "I know the crap is hitting the fan and I have time to grab something big" weapon, so why not go for the one with more firepower? I'd love to keep a long arm bedside, preferably my 870 and my ar, but I don't feel it is safe for me based on the single quandary of what would happen if someone beat me to it during a home invasion. Maybe they know how to work it if I leave the bolt open or maybe not...I'd rather not have it too readily accessible if I'm not beside it.
FLAvalanche
Member
That's happened more than once too...
A shotgun with 00 buck and maybe slugs on a sidesaddle/stock cuff would be effective even w/ a armored opponent provided you took the fight to them aggressively. Hammer them with multiple shots and finish it (even if its a butt stroke) before they can recover from the blunt force impacts.
Even more reason NOT to assume that just because you shot and they fell...they are out of the fight. If they had armor, let your guard down or hesitate and he'll shoot you from the ground. 1st principle of military operations, security, always. Keep them covered, make sure they are out of the fight (as in check, or get away).
That said, I think the best HD gun for this scenario (heck, just about any scenario) would be a suppressed SBR in 5.56 or 6.8 with a red dot sight and weapon light (and your own armor). I've got everything but the suppressor...but that isn't my HD gun right now.
Even more reason NOT to assume that just because you shot and they fell...they are out of the fight. If they had armor, let your guard down or hesitate and he'll shoot you from the ground. 1st principle of military operations, security, always. Keep them covered, make sure they are out of the fight (as in check, or get away).
That said, I think the best HD gun for this scenario (heck, just about any scenario) would be a suppressed SBR in 5.56 or 6.8 with a red dot sight and weapon light (and your own armor). I've got everything but the suppressor...but that isn't my HD gun right now.
Grey Morel
Member
I stopped using a shotgun for HD long ago.
The simple fact is that anything with enough penetration to stop a man is going to penetrate walls: Even a .22LR can penetrate multiple interior walls.
Combine the heavy penetration of shotgun slugs / buckshot with the very limited spread of shot patterns at typical HD distances, and I see no real advantage to a shotgun: only the disadvantages of limited ammunition capacity, and heavy recoil.
My AR is about 6" shorter than my Remington 870, has 5-7 times the ammunition capacity, dependent on magazine size, and fires multiple follow up shots in the time it takes a shotgun to recover from recoil... so for ME, a rifle over a shotgun is a no-brainier. I'm sure others will disagree.
The simple fact is that anything with enough penetration to stop a man is going to penetrate walls: Even a .22LR can penetrate multiple interior walls.
Combine the heavy penetration of shotgun slugs / buckshot with the very limited spread of shot patterns at typical HD distances, and I see no real advantage to a shotgun: only the disadvantages of limited ammunition capacity, and heavy recoil.
My AR is about 6" shorter than my Remington 870, has 5-7 times the ammunition capacity, dependent on magazine size, and fires multiple follow up shots in the time it takes a shotgun to recover from recoil... so for ME, a rifle over a shotgun is a no-brainier. I'm sure others will disagree.
I'm a shotgun guy, but I hang out with HD rifle people, too 
I view your negatives as a positive - I love the tight spread of my shotgun, and think a 6-inch spread (max) is just about perfect. 15 00-Buck pellets in a 6 inch spread is, well, unrivaled as a one-shot stop.
But really, it's about what you're comfortable with. There ain't nothin wrong with a carbine for HD.
Can anyone enlighten me? Maybe I'm ignorant, but my understanding is that an armored vest serves to save a life much more than keeping a guy in a fight.
I cannot imagine taking a full-power 00-Buck load to the chest and being in any mood to continue with anything, regardless of whether there are holes in me. Same goes for a couple quick taps with any decent carbine.
I view your negatives as a positive - I love the tight spread of my shotgun, and think a 6-inch spread (max) is just about perfect. 15 00-Buck pellets in a 6 inch spread is, well, unrivaled as a one-shot stop.
But really, it's about what you're comfortable with. There ain't nothin wrong with a carbine for HD.
Can anyone enlighten me? Maybe I'm ignorant, but my understanding is that an armored vest serves to save a life much more than keeping a guy in a fight.
I cannot imagine taking a full-power 00-Buck load to the chest and being in any mood to continue with anything, regardless of whether there are holes in me. Same goes for a couple quick taps with any decent carbine.
^ Or 15, if you have a solid shoulder
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/remington-12-ga-3-00-buckshot-15-pellets-250-rds.aspx?a=323009
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/remington-12-ga-3-00-buckshot-15-pellets-250-rds.aspx?a=323009
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Um, you are expressing a lot of wishful thinking.
If you shoot the pelvis/hip, your attacker may certainly be mobile. First, shooting the area of the pelvis often provides hits that fail to hit the pelvis. Second, the largest area of the pelvis is the iliac blade and you can break of large chunks of it without actually causing a cessation of locomotor abilities. Third, depending on the orientation of the shot and which bone of the pelvis that is hit, the bullet may simply pass right through, leaving a nice little hole, much akin to that of what happens when bullets pass through a cranium or scapula.
Yes, there are large blood vessels in the area of the pelvis and you may hit one of them. After you sever the femoral artery, the body armor wearing bad guy may still be area more than long enough to shoot you to death.
Sort of like your knee contains our kneecap, your butt contains your pelvis. There are a lot of people shot in the butt that remain ambulatory.
http://www.upi.com/Odd_News/2010/05/18/Woman-accidentally-shot-in-butt-at-store/UPI-12871274216684/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkbFP7iXPBg (foul language, WARNING)
Nathan Hewitt was shot in the hip and calf during the Fort Hood shootings and was wounded so badly that he was able to help get other soldiers out of danger.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkbFP7iXPBg
Then there is this guy with three pistol rounds in the area of the pelvis wjere NONE managed to break it, but the .223 round did. Even so, the .223 did no compromise the actual socket. Despite massive injuries, the subject was still fighting with the cops when they tried to cuff him. GRAPHIC!
http://www.defensivecarry.com/documents/officer.pdf
alohachris
Member
You'd probably have time for follow up shots while they're lying there in their body armor, trying to suck wind, most likely deaf and possibly blind. 00 buck at close range is one hell of a flash-bang.
Perhaps, but don't rely on this assumption. Remember; they will at least be under a full adrenalin dump...and fighting for their life. That's not counting the strong possibility of drugs on board as well.
Also, the N. Hollywood bank robbers took lots of 00 buck and didn't break a beat. Granted it wasn't close range, but they absorbed massive rounds including hits to unarmored portions.
Bottom line, take the fight to them hard and fast, "violence of action" stop only when you are sure they are no longer a threat (i.e. they run, give up, or fight to the end).
cleardiddion
Member
Well, I suppose if I was in the situation I have a simple solution.
Load up my MN-44.
I figure the surplus stuff isn't going to stop 7.62x54R and even if it does I can always count on the fireball the size of a volkswagon and the pigsticker.
Load up my MN-44.
I figure the surplus stuff isn't going to stop 7.62x54R and even if it does I can always count on the fireball the size of a volkswagon and the pigsticker.
Along the lines of what Jorg mentioned earlier as to the fact the body armor doesn't matter as much in the scheme of things as much as the fact the BGs are a cohesive team.
I think hardware is of no concern in such a scenario providing you have an autoloading quick aim capable firearm with at least a 10 shot capability without reloading. You need to set your requirements before picking a firearm such as an "870" or an "AR".
Software (between your ears) is much more applicable in such a situation. You must prevent an insertion of such a tactical team of BGs.
Create a bottleneck or single point of entry to negate such tactics. Or find a spot to hole up that would create a tunnel for entry. For my home the master bedroom closet creates a great DFP as there is only one entryway through the bedroom and the closet is surrounded by interior walls. Another great example in my home is that both the back door and front door of the home which are the only entryways are across the house from eachother making my hallway another DFP since I will have a view of both doorways and it also creates a bottleneck for entry.
So you must be able to control the entry and tactics of the BGs by bottlenecking them in a controllable location. If they are able to be separated and can maintain communication you will most likely be flanked, if you leave yourself open to more than one point of entry.
So remember weapon choice is a minimal concern but still a concern just not as important as good tactics. ( I always hate how people always ask what gun for so and so scenario)
I think hardware is of no concern in such a scenario providing you have an autoloading quick aim capable firearm with at least a 10 shot capability without reloading. You need to set your requirements before picking a firearm such as an "870" or an "AR".
Software (between your ears) is much more applicable in such a situation. You must prevent an insertion of such a tactical team of BGs.
Create a bottleneck or single point of entry to negate such tactics. Or find a spot to hole up that would create a tunnel for entry. For my home the master bedroom closet creates a great DFP as there is only one entryway through the bedroom and the closet is surrounded by interior walls. Another great example in my home is that both the back door and front door of the home which are the only entryways are across the house from eachother making my hallway another DFP since I will have a view of both doorways and it also creates a bottleneck for entry.
So you must be able to control the entry and tactics of the BGs by bottlenecking them in a controllable location. If they are able to be separated and can maintain communication you will most likely be flanked, if you leave yourself open to more than one point of entry.
So remember weapon choice is a minimal concern but still a concern just not as important as good tactics. ( I always hate how people always ask what gun for so and so scenario)
..."Officers shot in areas not protected by armor: According to FBI data, 306 of 521 officers who were feloniously killed between 1997 and 2006 were wearing body armor. More than half of those 306 officers were shot in the head area, 9 percent in the neck/throat area, and 34 percent in the torso area. Of the 103 shots that hit officers in the torso area, 20 penetrated the vest because the vest was not designed to stop that particular weapon, while the remainder entered the torso through open side or shoulder panels, or above or below the vest. This finding suggests that in addition to body armor, other protection should also be considered, such as enhanced training on using cover/concealment during firearm incidents."...
above from:
http://www.bodyarmornews.com/body-armor-news/officers_require_body_armor.html
i recall reading about a portland, oregon police officer who was hit over the heart by a sniper on a roof with a 22lr, and spent a good deal of time in the hospital recovering from it.
no, it didn't penetrate the vest. without trauma plates a vest is only better than being without. and unless it is cold winter weather, one doesn't move around unnoticed with either on their body anyway.
another urban legend we can blame hollywood for.
THE BULLET PROOF VEST, ISN'T!
gunnie
above from:
http://www.bodyarmornews.com/body-armor-news/officers_require_body_armor.html
i recall reading about a portland, oregon police officer who was hit over the heart by a sniper on a roof with a 22lr, and spent a good deal of time in the hospital recovering from it.
no, it didn't penetrate the vest. without trauma plates a vest is only better than being without. and unless it is cold winter weather, one doesn't move around unnoticed with either on their body anyway.
another urban legend we can blame hollywood for.
THE BULLET PROOF VEST, ISN'T!
gunnie
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chagasrod
Member
8 rounds is one second?
Is your 500 a semi-auto?
Is your 500 a semi-auto?
VillageIdjit
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chagasrod
8 rounds is one second?
Is your 500 a semi-auto?
No offense intended, but count to 10 as fast as you can and you have used approximately one second.
The 500 is a pump.
Many shooters are able to shoot faster than that.
My eighth round leaves the barrel with one or two empty cartridges still in the air.
With an autoloader, I would suspect that 8 in 1/2 second or less would be an easy task.
Remember also, I am not talking about about bench rest 100 yard shooting.
If your question is sincere, please ask others here for their opinion. You might be surprised (as might I).
Bob
8 rounds is one second?
Is your 500 a semi-auto?
No offense intended, but count to 10 as fast as you can and you have used approximately one second.
The 500 is a pump.
Many shooters are able to shoot faster than that.
My eighth round leaves the barrel with one or two empty cartridges still in the air.
With an autoloader, I would suspect that 8 in 1/2 second or less would be an easy task.
Remember also, I am not talking about about bench rest 100 yard shooting.
If your question is sincere, please ask others here for their opinion. You might be surprised (as might I).
Bob
marklbucla
Member
Patrick Flanigan shot a record 12 rounds in 1.42 seconds with some sort of semi auto shotgun. 2/3rds of that would be 8 rounds in .933 seconds.
sonier
Member
A great concealable easy to get pistol with armor penetration would be the 7.62x25 the CZ-52 is nasty on body armor it shreds kevlar.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
for a AP pistol i would have to go with the CZ-52
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot29.htm
for a AP pistol i would have to go with the CZ-52
texas bulldog
Member
For reports of criminals wearing or possessing body armor, please click here, here, and here. I'm not saying it's common by any means, but these didn't take long to dig up. In this day and age, I don't put anything past these lowlifes.
That said, my AR is still not my go-to HD weapon, though it is available if needed, i suppose.
That said, my AR is still not my go-to HD weapon, though it is available if needed, i suppose.
easyg
Member
In my humble opinion, unless you have a cathedral sized home a long-gun is just too unwieldy.
You most likely will not have it within arms reach at all times when you're home, and so might not have it on hand at the time of the break-in.
And it generally requires both hands to operate effectively.
So I prefer a handgun for home defense.
Now, what to do about multiple invaders wearing body armor?
Head-shots.
You most likely will not have it within arms reach at all times when you're home, and so might not have it on hand at the time of the break-in.
And it generally requires both hands to operate effectively.
So I prefer a handgun for home defense.
Now, what to do about multiple invaders wearing body armor?
Head-shots.
LHRGunslinger
Member
FN Five-seveN or the FN PS90. Those guns were designed for the military. The SS190 (31gr @ 2350 FPS steel penetrator w/aluminum core FMJ) round for those weapons WILL punch through a Class IIIa vest @ 200 yards. The Five-seveN has 20 rounds in the mag, light as a feather and from what I've read it's a joy to shoot even though it has a very deep grip.
mljdeckard
Member
Don't read about it. Shoot it.
And if you can get some SS-109 ammo, tell us where.
And if you can get some SS-109 ammo, tell us where.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
In terms of armor, and civilian-available ammunition, there isn't any significant penetration difference between FMJ and JHP or SP. There *is* a significant difference in terms of penetration of soft cover (drywall, etc.) but not much difference with regard to Kevlar.
A .223 shooting JHP's typicall penetrates less in drywall than a 9mm pistol shooting JHP's or a shotgun shooting 00 buckshot, so if penetration concerns rule out certain fields of fire for a .223 carbine, then they aren't safe for 9mm or 00 buckshot either.
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