HD Choice if mulitple armed assailants, body armor

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My answer: a Tokarev handgun loaded with S&B FMJ's (holds 8 rounds, and cuts through level 2 body armor like butter), and a high velocity / small caliber rifle OR a shotgun shooting slugs. Note that slugs have the little problem of tending to go THROUGH the target, and anything else. They're the closest thing available to a real handheld railgun.
 
I've shot deer with a 762x39. Up close it will tear up some meat. I expected it to go through that armor. Get some drill rod, that's all you need.
 
WardenWolf said:
My answer: a Tokarev handgun loaded with S&B FMJ's (holds 8 rounds, and cuts through level 2 body armor like butter), and a high velocity / small caliber rifle OR a shotgun shooting slugs. Note that slugs have the little problem of tending to go THROUGH the target, and anything else. They're the closest thing available to a real handheld railgun.

A shotgun slug won't go through Lv. IIIA armor, nor will a Tokarev. You're on the right track with a rifle though.

While shotguns are GREAT for close range defense, even Lv. II armor will stop buckshot. Not sure if lv II will stop slugs, but I know Lv. IIIA does.

HOWEVER: Even getting shot with a .32ACP wearing Lv. IIIA soft armor will HURT. The bullet penetration is stopped, and the energy transfer is spread out some, but it will still hurt, and larger calibers can and will break ribs, crack sternums and cause all sorts of other damage.
 
Full Metal Jacket: Lv. II and IIIA armor aren't generally considered common by most people, but it's not uncommon for criminals in larger cities (where ease of access is greater) to make use of body armor, especially in gun friendly areas. It is also becoming more common as the prices go down.
 
Most body armor is only Level 2 grade. Level 3 is fairly uncommon. A Tokarev FMJ does VERY bad things to someone wearing Level 2 body armor. It mushrooms to .45 and still gets optimal penetration. As handguns go, it's by far the best choice.

Even if a shotgun slug doesn't go THROUGH Level 2 armor, it will still be a fight stopper. The sheer kinetic energy will shatter bones underneath the armor.

A good choice, in my opinion, would be a Saiga .308 rifle with a 16" barrel and the skeleton stock. This results in a very comfortable, very lightweight carbine that fires a monster of a round. Being an AK, it's very reliable and inexpensive, and has an accessory side rail which can be used to mount optics. Some optics mounts allow co-witnessing iron sights, and you can expect around 1-1.5 MOA out of these rifles.
 
still not convinced, my friend lol :)

post a link of even one burglary scenario where the intruder was wearing armor...


it doesn't concern me, but if folks are genuinely worried about it, just use an AR15 with one mag of jhp's, and one mag of steel tipped penetrators.

i owned a cz52 7.62x25, and it does travel at almost 2,000fps, but it's not going through any quality body armor.
 
i owned a cz52 7.62x25, and it does travel at almost 2,000fps, but it's not going through any quality body armor.

It's been tested. It goes through Level 2 like a hot knife through butter. Level 3, no. But Level 2 is like being shot with a .45 FMJ unarmored.
 
I live in Arizona. Its not really theoretical here, it happens regularly. The majority of the time its drug related. Pretending to be SWAT teams is the preferred method for the kidnapping rings.
I'm keeping the shotgun. I've thought about switching to the AR a few times and may end up doing it eventually but not yet. I'd be uncomfortable keeping either of them with a round chambered and more so with the floating firing pin on the AR. If I do reach for one the shotgun is a lot easier and faster to chamber by simply racking the slide. The way my place is laid out I can control access to the bedrooms but I'm going to be firing out the front door and rifle bullets fly a long way.
 
i highly doubt i'll be encountering house burglars wearing body armor...

I agree totally. In fact, I highly doubt you will be encountering burglars or even a loan burglar. You may get burglarized, but more than likely you won't encounter one in your house.

Of all the people I know that have been burglarized, only one actually confronted the burglar and the burglar was the last of a group working diligently to get the hell out of the house as quickly as possible. A couple (including myself) have interrupted burglars without actually encountering them. In my case, it was at my grandmother's house. I rang the bell and the burglar(s) bolted out the back, slamming the door in the process.

With that said, I have known three individuals who have suffered armed home invasions, two of which were groups coming through the front door forcibly. So you may not encounter a group of burglars with body armor, or a single one, but that also isn't the only sort of encounter you may have in your home, though it would still be an extremely rare event.

Yes, these things happen all the time. There maybe a couple in the newspaper every day in a large metropolitan area. A couple a day in a city with a few hundred thousand domiciles is a drop in the bucket.

Still, we keep a rifle and a shotgun for home defense. My wife prefers the shotgun. I prefer the rifle.

HOWEVER: Even getting shot with a .32ACP wearing Lv. IIIA soft armor will HURT. The bullet penetration is stopped, and the energy transfer is spread out some, but it will still hurt, and larger calibers can and will break ribs, crack sternums and cause all sorts of other damage.

Yes, it can hurt. I have read literally hundreds of accounts of people being shot wearing body armor (there is the SAVES list and several companies like Safariland have their own http://www.safariland.com/bodyarmor/Saves-Club.aspx ). In the pics I have seen of folks chests, guts, and backs after being shot, they often have some nice baseball-grapefruit-sized bruising. Some have skin burns associated with the impact. Many are hospitalized for observation and quickly released. Most suffer no major injuries at all, though you are correct in that ribs CAN be cracked. The sternum CAN be broken. Shoulder blades and collarbones CAN also suffer as well. There CAN be some internal organ bruising or damage. While these things can happen, the more serious ones often or usually do not.

Here is the link for the Kevlar Survivors' Club. http://52.128.225.198/SurvivorClub/

With that said, at the time of being shot, the reactions of those shot is pretty amazing. Being in some pain generally did not preclude shootees from fighting back and often fighting back quite effectively. In some cases, officers did not realize they had actually been shot (which also happens to some who aren't wearing vests). Some liken getting shot to being punched in the chest. Some lose their breath. Many report feeling much worse the day AFTER being shot (sort of like feeling worse the day after being in a car wreck).

Note that there are numerous cases of officers being shot multiple times in the vest and still continuing to battle, often with a result of the suspect being arrested or killed.

Shooting an invader wearing body armor may cause that person some pain, but if the body armor stops the bullet, there is a high likelihood that the person will be in fine enough shape to continue what s/he wanted to do.
 
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Ok, you want other areas of the country? The "it'll never happen to me, this kind of thing only happens to other people" mentality is frustrating :banghead:
You may be right, and probably are, that you'll never encounter an intruder wearing body armor, all I'm saying is that it happens. Feel free to read the articles posted below or not.

http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/atlanta-crime-rate-down-101504.html <-- Georgia, men arrested in connection with burglaries, in possession of body armor and guns

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ga-supreme-court/1242114.html <--- Georgia again, possibly the same case as above, but not sure. Legal documentation always helps.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/phoenix/articles/2008/06/23/20080623abrk-homeinvasion0623-ON.html <-- Phoenix AZ, 6 men in body armor broke into a mans house and killed him.

There were more but I doubt it would matter if I posted 100 instances of body armor being used in a home invasion or burglary. FWIW, I keep an SKS under the bed just in case.
 
i should have specified i don't live in a big crime ridden city ;)

....and no, i'm still not worried about it. the chances of anyone breaking into my house, let alone someone in body armor, is about the same as me winning the lottery.

and if they do, i'll aim for the head ;)




I agree totally. In fact, I highly doubt you will be encountering burglars or even a loan burglar. You may get burglarized, but more than likely you won't encounter one in your house.

Of all the people I know that have been burglarized, only one actually confronted the burglar and the burglar was the last of a group working diligently to get the hell out of the house as quickly as possible. A couple (including myself) have interrupted burglars without actually encountering them. In my case, it was at my grandmother's house. I rang the bell and the burglar(s) bolted out the back, slamming the door in the process.

agreed. i have more important things to concern myself with than the exceedingly remote possibility of a burglar clad in body armor lol
 
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At HD distances, you ought to be able to get them right in the face...face armor is unlikely.

That said, if this was a serious issue it would have been a fine reason to push to legalize AP ammo in areas that have outlawed it.
 
Serious answer:
M4gery in 5.56mm, since that's what I have trained with the most.

Facetious answer:
Squad of Marines

Facetious answer #2:
Seriously reconsidering the life choices that led me to be the target of multiple armed, armored home invaders
 
What he said ^^^

I've long said that if you are the target of groups of well-armed individuals you probably did something to deserve it.

Besides, even if the cohort of multiple armed individuals stormed my place and I was prepared for them, IIIA won't stop 55gr FMJ from an AR. They didn't test in on the box'o truth AFIK, but I bet a 30-30 would tear some of that up, too.

Why do these kinds of threads keep popping up. This is borderline Zombie stuff.
 
Some thoughts: your odds of being in a violent situation are probably slim. Your odds of being in an armed home invasion are slimmer still. If it happens, they may have armor. Any rifle (center-fire) will punch through level IIIA armor. Hitting a small, moving, head, probably in the dark, under life or death stress, is likely really hard.

If your HD weapon is a rifle/carbine, then whether they have armor or not, won't change your response. If it is a handgun: a different response is probably necessary ifyou encounter an armored assailant...a very slim possibility.

Reminds me of a story about a statistician in Russia during WWII getting bombed by the Germans. His friend asked why he never went to the shelter, he replied there were 6 million people in Moscow, the odds were very slim he would get hit.

The next night, his friend saw him in the shelter and asked what changed his mind. He replied there were 6 million people in Moscow and 1 elephant...last night they got the elephant!

Anyway, I don't have a firm opinion either way...my current HD gun is a handgun at the moment. Should I encounter an armored invader, I'll likely have to change strategies from center-chest until he drops to something else.
 
I have an AR with a light, optic, and CQC sling, a shotgun w/light, and a G19 w/light on a pistol belt as well as my IBA next to bed. I'm fairly confident I can contest any threat that might invade my home, body armor or not. Honestly, I would pick the AR first. It's what I shoot best, it's what I have spent hundreds of hours training on both inside and outside of the Army, and I am extremely confident I can wield it like an extension of my body. Not so much with the shotgun.

well put lol. most folks don't even own a gun, so i find it funny when gun owners worry about the remotest possible scenario actually happening to them

That cuts both ways. Those very same people who don't own a gun because they think a mugging or home invasion is so remote, still end up getting mugged or robbed. Their confidence in the unlikelihood of a situation proved to be worthless.
 
That cuts both ways. Those very same people who don't own a gun because they think a mugging or home invasion is so remote, still end up getting mugged or robbed. Their confidence in the unlikelihood of a situation proved to be worthless.

yeah, and your plane could crash too, so why not avoid flying altogether while your at it....:rolleyes:


Please use capital letters and punctuation properly in your post. It makes you seem like an ignorant child when you don't.

if the shortcuts in grammar i, and others use on these forums offends your sensibility, feel free not to frequent them ;)
 
i should have specified i don't live in a big crime ridden city

....and no, i'm still not worried about it. the chances of anyone breaking into my house, let alone someone in body armor, is about the same as me winning the lottery.

and if they do, i'll aim for the head

Strangely, I find the comments of folks who are victims of crimes in smaller towns or out in the country to be some of the most amazing. They seem to be the ones who cry the loudest about how it doesn't happen there, who would have ever thought it could, etc.

At HD distances, you ought to be able to get them right in the face...face armor is unlikely.

After watching real life videos of people completely missing bad guys and bad guys completely missing victims at arm's length, I have to wonder how it is that people are going to determine the bad guy has body armor and transition to the head in time to make the shot.

Of course, just getting a shot on the head or in the face isn't sufficient. The shot needs to disrupt the CNS sufficiently to cause a physiological stop. There is a lot of head and face that can be shot that won't produce such a stop.
 
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