Cards81fan
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- Apr 5, 2009
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Oklahoma Highway Patrol uses the .357 Sig (in a 226, for what it's worth). They moved from .40 a while back.
Clearly, i was speaking in defensive ammunition terms- this is a defensive ammunition thread.
CLEARLY in the .357 magnums upper end it leaves 9mm in the dust, but virtually no one uses full house heavyweight .357 magnum rounds for defense.
So, far from being "playing with words", i was stating a simple fact.
9mm+P+ produces energy and velocity levels very comparable to .357 defensive ammunition loadings.
And if you really think that the energy of a round is not a factor in the lethality of that round then there's not much point in talking to you.If you in anyway think energy in a pistol round is a killing factor, then you need to learn a few more things.
valorius said:I personally think .40S&W offers absolutely nothing over 9mm or .357 Sig. It is probably one of the greatest marketing successes of a modern product that fills no particular role that i can think of.
I agree about the .357 Sig as well, though pushed to it's limits, it does seem to offer slightly better performance than either .40 or 9mm, but again, that's pushed to it's limits. A .357 sig pushed to it's limits has a LOT of recoil.While I don't vehemently disagree with this, your timeline is incorrect. Remember the .40 was offered before the .357 SIG. Therefore, I have to say you have your calibers reversed - the .357 offers little improvement over the .40 (aside from improved feeding - though I have had 0 FTF in any .40 I have fired from Glock, Springfield, S&W, SIG).
Logically following your statement and then factual timeline of the calibers' release, BOTH the .40 and .357 are thus superfluous when we have the 9mm and 45. I can understand statement, but I do primarily own and shoot .40.
Many experts are of the opinion that kinetic energy at pistol type levels is a non factor in the wounding process.And if you really think that the energy of a round is not a factor in the lethality of that round then there's not much point in talking to you.
How lethal is a bullet with no energy?
Not lethal at all, unless a person swallows it and chokes to death.
I don't know anyone who doesn't. I certainly do. Why would anyone use neutered ammo to defend themselves?...virtually no one uses full house heavyweight .357 magnum rounds for defense.
OK, Thanks!Oklahoma Highway Patrol uses the .357 Sig (in a 226, for what it's worth).
In the defensive world, 9mm+P+ is every bit the equal of .357 magnum defensive ammunition.
And if you really think that the energy of a round is not a factor in the lethality of that round then there's not much point in talking to you.
How lethal is a bullet with no energy?
Not lethal at all, unless a person swallows it and chokes to death.
Because those police agencies don't have international agreements and treaties with other police agencies around the world on what handgun caliber to use.To the best of my knowledge, every military force on earth uses the 9mm parabellum cartridge for their primary pistol caliber.
Every. Single. One.
Why are so many police agencies choosing .40?
I guess you've never heard of the popular "personal defense" and "reduced recoil" .357 loadings that are so popular?I don't know anyone who doesn't. I certainly do. Why would anyone use neutered ammo to defend themselves?
And it penetrates LESS and expands LESS than the top 9mm loads from DT...while recoiling far more.Again, define "personal defense world".....you mean Federal, Winchester or Remington??
Here you go, 125 gr. jacketed hollow point personal defense load from Double Tap
710 ft/lb ME out of a 4" Ruger GP-100
Actually, it can easily be debated whether or not the .357Sig offers anything over the .40, but both are more effective than the 9mm.I agree about the .357 Sig as well, though pushed to it's limits, it does seem to offer slightly better performance than either .40 or 9mm, but again, that's pushed to it's limits. A .357 sig pushed to it's limits has a LOT of recoil.
It was put under 9mm and 40S&W. Do they use both or just a typo. Either way i think 40 is a great caliber for police to use. You can load them to hit more like a 45 can fit more into the clip. The argument that I have heard from a police officer was that 9mm wasnt cutting it when they had a person who was hoped on drugs and 9mm didnt have enough knock down power. So they went with the 40 due to it having more knockdown power then the 9mm but easier to handle then the 45, plus the extra rounds a 40 can hold. Just what I was told by an Idaho State Police officer. Heard very simialer story from and Oregon Police officer also.Wisconsin State Police
Ah, so it's not possible that EVERY military force on earth uses 9mm because it's, you know, a good cartridge that's been proven in about, oh, 1000 different wars in the last century?Because those police agencies don't have international agreements and treaties with other police agencies around the world on what handgun caliber to use.
And since very few of those police agencies will ever go to war together, as allies, against a common enemy, they need not be concerned with the logistics of supplying multi-national forces with a common caliber.
But surely you knew this, right?
You keep repeating this even though i've shown you stats which show the 9mm equals the .40 in gel tests.Actually, it can easily be debated whether or not the .357Sig offers anything over the .40, but both are more effective than the 9mm.
Please read my posts if you're going to respond to them. I said "Full house" .357 sig (as in max pressure such as the stuff DT sells) kicks a lot. Because it does.And the .357Sig does not have a LOT of recoil.
It's easy to shoot even from a sub-compact Glock 33.
It's all posted in page 1 of this thread. But i'll repost it again for you:Who tested these?? I find impossible that you get less penetration and less expansion...somehow energy has to go somewhere....
So you don't believe that the .40 makes a bigger hole and destroy more tissue than the 9mm, all other things being equal?Yes the 40 is as good as the 9mm. Yes a 9mm carries more ammo on board the same sized pistols and yes the 9mm has more control. That must mean the 40 is better, I got it now....
Have you ever served in the military?Ah, so it's not possible that EVERY military force on earth uses 9mm because it's, you know, a good cartridge that's been proven in about, oh, 1000 different wars in the last century?
That could never be it.
There is no such thing as "full house .357Sig" loads.I said "Full house" .357 sig (as in max pressure such as the stuff DT sells) kicks a lot. Because it does.
You are horrible at guessing. Couple that with the other questionable comments you've made, and the statements you've had to back-peddle from in order to qualify, I'd say your credibility needs some damage control.I guess you've never heard of the popular "personal defense" and "reduced recoil" .357 loadings that are so popular?
Have you ever served in the military?
I have.
And no, the 9mm FMJ, like the ones the military uses, is not a good cartridge.
And no, it has not been proven in 1000 different wars.
Handguns play an insignificant role in wars.
On the other hand, for police, the handgun often plays the most significant role in his survival.
Which is why the vast majority of police have rejected the 9mm.
That's part of it, but the other part is that is smallest round of those listed (in both bullet diameter, weight, and cartridge length).I really think the 9mm vs 45/40/357 war boils down to a "metric vs standard" cartridge name battle. If 9mm was called 357 auto I'd be willing to bet a large number of caliber war threads wouldn't exist. Notice how this thread has gone from a free for all to "9mm vs everything else"