Hollow Point Controversy
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You are assuming you will hit the heart. A .45-caliber hole has less chance of hitting the heart than a 0.65 caliber hole (and likewise the 0.65 vs. 0.75). However, you are sacrificing capacity and increasing recoil to go for a .45 SWC over a 9 JHP, when the 9 actually offers better terminal ballistics.
Like I said, there's only a very narrow margin where FMJ is going to fail where a JHP would succeed, but your reasons for choosing FMJ over JHP are misguided, as has been pointed out by several people. Through bone and flesh, even at odd angles, a JHP round in 9 or .45 should penetrate enough to reach vital organs.
Like I said, there's only a very narrow margin where FMJ is going to fail where a JHP would succeed, but your reasons for choosing FMJ over JHP are misguided, as has been pointed out by several people. Through bone and flesh, even at odd angles, a JHP round in 9 or .45 should penetrate enough to reach vital organs.
coolluke01
Member
Your whole basis for your caliber change is based on a miss! It wasn't a penetration issue. He missed the heart by one inch to the side. It's not that it only had one more inch to go before hitting the heart! A miss is a miss whether it's a .45 FMJ or a 9mm HP. The HP will induce much more trauma to the surrounding area than the FMJ though.
There is no data or anecdotal evidence that supports your theory.
NavyLCDR
member
If wadcutters are better, why don't LEO agencies use them? I'll stick with what the cops use, Federal and local. Heck, the US Government military can't use hollow points because they were deemed too inhumane by the Hague Convention.
Even the biggest guys I see in the military are not 24" wide in the chest which would mean that 12" penetration would end up in the center of the chest.
Even the biggest guys I see in the military are not 24" wide in the chest which would mean that 12" penetration would end up in the center of the chest.
That little ditty has been pretty thoroughly disproved. If the person claiming to be a medical examiner were real, he would have been performing something like a thousand or more autopsies every year.
Which is impossible.
And the claim that 9mm deflects while marginally heavier and marginally wider and equally fast .40 or .45 just trucks through breaking all bones is absurd.
Ten percent difference might seem significant, until you put either projectile on a scale with an average human male. It's an irrelevant difference, given the overwhelming mass difference between the projectiles and the thing they will potentially be fired into.
There is a lot more going on than just the generic term for whatever type of bullet you load. The reason those bullets did not penetrate deep enough into a heavily muscled assailant is because they were 135 grain .40 bullets, no wonder they didn't penetrate deep enough. Typical 135 grain penetration depths are usually around seven to nine inches, maybe ten on a good day.
If all you can choose between is 90 grain 9mm/135 grain .40/165 grain .45 loads or heavy semiwadcutters in the same calibers, you need to try a little harder in your shopping process.
For anyone reading this thread, please don't fall into the belief that all JHP ammunition behaves identically, identically poorly. Don't believe a .45 will get you vastly different terminal performance than a 9mm or .40, just because some poor sucker got suckered into or forced by his administrators into relying on the worst type of JHP for defense. There is a reason premium, current-generation JHP bullets come in 124 and 147 grain in 9mm, 155, 165, and 180 grain in .40, and 230 grain with some 185 or 200 grain options in .45, and it isn't just tradition.
IF everything goes perfectly they're effective. That's without possible doors, hands, arms and whatever else it might need to go through in a real world situation. Everything looks perfect when you shoot it into jello. If there's not a big difference between 124gr and 230gr why don't they use small fast bullets to hunt in Africa with? Because they need to plow through bones and tough skin to get the penetration they need. Almost all of the hollow points that I've seen tested get clogged by t shirts and turn into fmj anyways, so I'll just start with a heavy flat bullet to begin with.
You all can use whatever you want to, but know that hollow points are safety bullets. Police use them to limit penetration, not just to (possibly)do more damage. They don't want the BGs to die, they want them to rot in jail.
He did and it's not impossible. Do you think that only 3 people die per year, how is it impossible? No offense, but I think I'll take a medical examiners word for it and 100 years of proven effectiveness over someones opinion on the internet.
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Gator06
Member
I know my post count is fairly low (I'm primarily a lurker), but this thread has my blood boiling. The ignorance displayed here is immeasurable. As a current LEO and former member of the military I would urge all you textbook ballistics experts to go get some training. You can read opinions on the internet, regurgitate them with absolute authority, demand scientific citation of the other argument, but the fact of the matter is that every shooting incident is differnet.
Think of all the real world training you could have experienced in the amount of time you've been sitting in front of that screen wasting oxygen and reading the unfounded opinions from someone we know nothing about. One of the greatest things about the internet is also one of its greatest downfalls, everyone has a platform to voice their opinion. And you know what they say about opinions; they're like --------, everyone's got one.
Think of all the real world training you could have experienced in the amount of time you've been sitting in front of that screen wasting oxygen and reading the unfounded opinions from someone we know nothing about. One of the greatest things about the internet is also one of its greatest downfalls, everyone has a platform to voice their opinion. And you know what they say about opinions; they're like --------, everyone's got one.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
After seeing cops shoot, I am not sure of your opinoin, LOL. In fact, most cops don't do squat on research or shooting. Sorry, but the cop claim doesn't exactly convey any more authority than anyone else here, nor does having been in the military. Military folks often seem to be full of the same misconceptions as everyone else. Thanks for your service.
Yeah, I don't expect anybody to trust what I say, and I have no problem saying that I have no credentials whatsoever. I'm a college student that's done a lot of research and nothing more. Thank God, I've never had to test any of my theories. I just wanted to share what I've read and my opinions. You guys should do some research of your own to see where I'm coming from, specifically with the flat points vs round nose. I'm not saying that hollow points don't do more tissue damage, I'm saying that I don't think they have enough penetration.
I have made scenes where a guy was dropped in his tracks with a single 9MM through the top of his heart. Another guy was dropped and likely dead before he hit the ground having been hit with a 25ACP in the brain. Bullet placement, distance to the target are all critical. Every situation is different. However, if you don't have confidence in your CCW, you might well hesitate in using it. Use something that meets your personal comfort level and forget everything else. Practice till you are competent with it and use what is the equivalent for local LE issue. Speer, Winchester, Remington all of,these are used by LE agencies. I love Hornady ammo, but am I sure that it has been tested by the FBI or is in use by any large LE department.
Best to you, and may you never need to fire your weapon in anger.
Best to you, and may you never need to fire your weapon in anger.
browningguy
Member
So the .45 loses on 2 out of 3 of your criteria, whatcha gonna do?
I'll stick with my 20 rounds of 9mm, or 16 rounds of .40 (hollowpoints) and be a happy camper, comfortable that either one can take care of any problem that needs taking care of.
NMPOPS
Member
Buxx9mm
In the case you talking about a .45 wouldn't have done any better since no vitals were hit. BTW since an ER doc told you about this, the bullets obviously worked, he was in the ER on a table! The idea if to stop the action of the aggressor not necessarily kill him. What ever does that works. 9, 40 & 45 all work.
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In the case you talking about a .45 wouldn't have done any better since no vitals were hit. BTW since an ER doc told you about this, the bullets obviously worked, he was in the ER on a table! The idea if to stop the action of the aggressor not necessarily kill him. What ever does that works. 9, 40 & 45 all work.
Sent from my Xoom using Tapatalk 2
I agree, but I don't know the condition of the guy shooting the .40 caliber. All is know is that the BG was shot twice in the chest with 40 hollow points and survived. I believe that the bullet that missed his heart by an inch was short an inch of penetration, not that he missed to the left or right.
walking arsenal
Member
Here is the video. The Doc shows the two shots in question about halfway in but you should watch the whole thing.
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/20...ed:+GunBlog+(Everyday+No+Days+Off+-+Gun+Blog)
http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/20...ed:+GunBlog+(Everyday+No+Days+Off+-+Gun+Blog)
It is impossible for a person to deliver a thousand autopsies a year unless they work 24/7/365. Everyone needs to eat, sleep, shave, shower, the rest, and with the numbers of gunshot autopsies that 'examiner' claims to have performed or observed, he must have been living in Mogadishu.
.40 is not a very popular caliber in Somalia.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Thats more due to ammo availability then performance.
I bet they like the 9mm better then any other caliber I betcha.
rc
Gator06
Member
Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not claiming that my LEO or military credentials provide me a level of expertise not obtainable by mere civilians.
Double Naught Spy - I concur with you about some LEOs......and there are a few folks in my agency that I absolutely refuse to be next to at the range, or on an entry team. Some LEOs are plain scary and unsafe. Same goes for military folks. That doesn't take away from the fact that there are some folks who do a significant amount of research, especially for agencies that allow LEOs to choose their own firearms (unfortunately, mine does not fall into that category).
The bottom line is, and it's been repeated here on THR too many times to recount, that bullets do weird things. Every situation is different. The only thing that you can control in an incident is your reaction to it. The gear you carry is part of that, but in most instances it won't be the determining factor. In my experience (which we've already discounted because most LEOs and military folks don't know anything about guns or the terminal effectiveness of bullets), your mentality will be the determining factor barring a direct hit to the cns.
I would gladly take someone going through a door with me armed with a 9mm and the intense desire to go home that night regardless of what happens over someone armed with a .45 that thinks the caliber of their sidearm will win the day.
It's great that we have places to share information like this forum. But there are so many conflicting opinions out there that at some point in time one needs to decide for oneself what to trust his/her life to. After that, they should practice and train as much as they can and pray they never need to call upon that one day.
Double Naught Spy - I concur with you about some LEOs......and there are a few folks in my agency that I absolutely refuse to be next to at the range, or on an entry team. Some LEOs are plain scary and unsafe. Same goes for military folks. That doesn't take away from the fact that there are some folks who do a significant amount of research, especially for agencies that allow LEOs to choose their own firearms (unfortunately, mine does not fall into that category).
The bottom line is, and it's been repeated here on THR too many times to recount, that bullets do weird things. Every situation is different. The only thing that you can control in an incident is your reaction to it. The gear you carry is part of that, but in most instances it won't be the determining factor. In my experience (which we've already discounted because most LEOs and military folks don't know anything about guns or the terminal effectiveness of bullets), your mentality will be the determining factor barring a direct hit to the cns.
I would gladly take someone going through a door with me armed with a 9mm and the intense desire to go home that night regardless of what happens over someone armed with a .45 that thinks the caliber of their sidearm will win the day.
It's great that we have places to share information like this forum. But there are so many conflicting opinions out there that at some point in time one needs to decide for oneself what to trust his/her life to. After that, they should practice and train as much as they can and pray they never need to call upon that one day.
Hi NG I never meant my post to discount the JHP, the point (pun intended) was that a lack of mass caused the failure to penetrate to the bg's vitals not the fact that it was a JHP. I also stated it changed my perspective about my carry ammo in that I have switched to heavy for caliber in the 9mm and the 40S&W that are my two primary carry calibers. To be perfectly honest I have no burning desire to be shot by anything up to and including an air rifle. A 7yo boy died from a .177 air rifle wound that perforated his aorta, shot placement and penetration. It was a sad event but one that drives home the point (pun not intended). Of course there is alot more to that story but nuff said. A person taking on the responsibility would be seriously negligent in not educating oneself about terminal ballistics and not just internet forum conjecture but from a credible source. With that I also would hold anyone negligent that willfully chose to carry FMJ for self defense in a public setting. To borrow a quote from a movie "with great power, comes great responsibility".
tomrkba
Member
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There is no controversy. Handguns are wimpy! They take the handgun from terrible terminal ballistics to merely bad terminal ballistics. Burst fire--why shoot one when you can hit him with two or three in a quick burst? More wounds are better than one. Practice your controlled pairs, double taps, Hearts-n-Minds, and Zippers!
fastbolt
Member
I couldn't make it past the second page of this thread topic (which I thought was actually pretty good of a reaction, all things considered 
).
After having carried a badge for 30 years, and after having spent more than 20 years as a firearms instructor, looking back I see there came a point when I decided that time wasted anguishing over caliber & ammunition choices was probably better spent doing some training & practicing.
).After having carried a badge for 30 years, and after having spent more than 20 years as a firearms instructor, looking back I see there came a point when I decided that time wasted anguishing over caliber & ammunition choices was probably better spent doing some training & practicing.
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