Would you ever draw your knife instead of your pistol?

[sidheshooter]

I read somewhere on the 'net that he retired from teaching in 1995; I'm not sure what that means, but I've unfortunately lost track of him.

I can't find any current northwest safari info anywhere either.

 

[PandaBearBG]

Would I ever draw a knife instead of a pistol. Absolutely 100% NO. For several reasons:

1: I am not a knife expert, or a ninja. In a knife fight you will ALWAYS get cut, well unless you are an expert or ninja (seriously the real deal guys are scary) and just one cut can = dead.

2: If I did draw my knife it would have to be a fear for my life/saftey situation. I would not hesitate to fire at an attacker with a knife if he came within 15 feet of me, knives are fast and deadly. It can kill you as easily as a bullet. It is the definition of a deadly weapon.

3: If I got time to draw a knife I got time to draw a firearm.

4: If I had a knife and gun, and I drew only the knife then that attacker is coming in close and there is the off possibilty he would take getting cut and snag my firearm. That would be a bad one.

5: Gun or knife, both are deadly weapons to police and just about anyone with common sense, yes one is more effective than the other cuz it goes bang bang, but if you draw one that it is serious to you choose the most effective weapon, the gun. Like I said you will always get cut in a knife fight, there are probably some who are experts, but I assume they are too smart and disciplined to let a situation get to that degree.

IF if if if, if If's where a fifth I would be drunk...

 

[conw]

2: If I did draw my knife it would have to be a fear for my life/saftey situation. I would not hesitate to fire at an attacker with a knife if he came within 15 feet of me, knives are fast and deadly. It can kill you as easily as a bullet. It is the definition of a deadly weapon.

Do you mean "draw my gun?"

 

[KBT1911]

IMO drawing a knife in defense would simply be an act of desperation. Courts usually are demons on people who use knives for SD because it's too hard to prove it was "SD" not just a fight that ended up being second degree murder. Image comes into play, especially with juries when the prosecutor starts calling your Tactikill Folder "The Murder Weapon".

That said, I carry 2 knives every day. My SAK (can't get caught dead w/o a corkscrew or my reputation could be damaged) and a Spyderco Harpy. The harpy's sickle shape makes it work great for working my garden and it would handle well in an emergency too.

 

[jon_in_wv]

That said, I don't carry a shiv. I carry an Emerson folder, of one model or another, as a rule; as well as a small fixed blade in kydex (polkowski, nealy, perrin) fairly often. If there are shivs in a correctional facility that are as capable of a cutting counter as an Emerson, Polkowski (or similar) piece, then the security there needs more of an overhaul than Somalian health care.

You should really refrain from posting on subjects you know apparently know nothing about. Improvised weapons are in every prison in the world. The fact we FIND them is a testament to the good job the officers do. Secondly. Any "shiv", not a term we use, is just a sharpened piece of steel (usually) than can be anywhere up to 12+ inches long. (more commonly 4-7 inches) and just as razor sharp as any blade you can buy. I never implied YOU carry one, interesting you think I did, but to omply that your little Emerson is so much more high tech and effective that larger and heavier bladed weapon and nothing can be learned from from ACTUAL armed bladed encounters just because of its tacticool nature, or yours, is a little......well, just let me say your ATTITUDE might be the one that could use a little overhaul.

Good luck with that.


Whatever brand, style, shape, WHATEVER the small blade you guys have the actual wound it inflicts is pretty much the same. A three inch piece of sharpened steel is a three inch of sharpened steel. To say one is more terminally effective than the other is like arguing that a bullet fired from a Glock is more deadly than one fired from a Smith & Wesson.

 

[conw]

jon, I'm still intrigued by your comparisons of prison improvised weapons. Again, I really appreciate the insight. But if you could go into a little more depth about what comparisons you are making, I'd appreciate it. Sounds like you are saying a 3-4" (blade) fixed blade is not as effective as the average prison shank, which is bigger, but then go on to say that the average improvised prison cutter or stabber is about 6-7". I would assume that is not all usable edge.

Not trying to play gotcha, I just want to understand your assertion.

 

[sidheshooter]

You should really refrain from posting on subjects you know apparently know nothing about. Improvised weapons are in every prison in the world. The fact we FIND them is a testament to the good job the officers do. Secondly. Any "shiv", not a term we use, is just a sharpened piece of steel (usually) than can be anywhere up to 12+ inches long. (more commonly 4-7 inches) and just as razor sharp as any blade you can buy.

Sorry, I guess I meant "shank". It is true that I have no personal knowledge of what goes on in prison, having never been incarcerated. I will certainly defer to your experience there.

and nothing can be learned from from ACTUAL armed bladed encounters just because of its tacticool nature, or yours, is a little......well, just let me say your ATTITUDE might be the one that could use a little overhaul.

While I have no desire to learn anything about edged weapon encounters via direct experience, I have always listened to any who have been there whenever I had the chance, and will continue to do so. I have read all that you have posted, and I will continue to absorb as many different viewpoints as I can find.

Good luck with that.

Luck has very little to do with it. Sorry if my comments and questions offended you.

 

[jon_in_wv]

HOly crap Conwict. The entire point is that you can make a DIRECT correlation between the results of injuries from and effectiveness of a prison KNIFE fight involving a 3-4 inch sized blade to what a 3-4 inch GeeWhiz folder will do on the street. I'm also saying that a bigger, heavier, longer bladed weapon is MORE effective than a smaller one. A 3 inch blade can only cut three inches deep PERIOD. An 8 inch blade can do better. How much "useable" blade isn't as important as how deeply it is capable of cutting. Most of the deadly shanks are actually ice pick types that are intended to puncture deeply into the lungs, heart, etc..... I've seen VERY sharp knives that had 6-8 inches of VERY sharp blade but really, a 8 inch blade that is only sharpened on the first three inches is much more effective than a three inch blade that is sharp on its entire length.
THIS in turn is all meant to enforce the idea that a 2-3 inch bladed knife is NOT as effective a close range weapon as some (mostly those SELLING the knives and the classes to use them" would have you believe. It is also a challenge to the idea that in very close range, these very small knives are MORE effective than a firearm at that same range. This does NOT disqualify the idea that blades, even small ones, CAN be deadly. Any other conclusions to what I've posted belong to you guys, not me.

sideshooter, I will give you that was a classy response. Any offense on my part has been replaced with RESPECT. Thank YOU!

 

[conw]

HOly crap Conwict[...]Any other conclusions to what I've posted belong to you guys, not me.

Whoa, I was just asking for clarification. Be a little less touchy. Your info is good, your approach is becoming offputting. I agree with your conclusions!

 

[jon_in_wv]

Its gets a little frustrating to be challenged repeatedly on things I didn't say or on conclusions people draw from their own prejudices instead of what I said. I'll try not to be so grumpy. Sorry.

 

[sidheshooter]

Jon:

The entire point is that you can make a DIRECT correlation between the results of injuries from and effectiveness of a prison KNIFE fight involving a 3-4 inch sized blade to what a 3-4 inch GeeWhiz folder will do on the street. I'm also saying that a bigger, heavier, longer bladed weapon is MORE effective than a smaller one. A 3 inch blade can only cut three inches deep PERIOD. An 8 inch blade can do better. How much "useable" blade isn't as important as how deeply it is capable of cutting. Most of the deadly shanks are actually ice pick types that are intended to puncture deeply into the lungs, heart, etc..... I've seen VERY sharp knives that had 6-8 inches of VERY sharp blade but really, a 8 inch blade that is only sharpened on the first three inches is much more effective than a three inch blade that is sharp on its entire length.
THIS in turn is all meant to enforce the idea that a 2-3 inch bladed knife is NOT as effective a close range weapon as some (mostly those SELLING the knives and the classes to use them" would have you believe. It is also a challenge to the idea that in very close range, these very small knives are MORE effective than a firearm at that same range. This does NOT disqualify the idea that blades, even small ones, CAN be deadly. Any other conclusions to what I've posted belong to you guys, not me.

For the record, Jon, I find basically nothing in the above post that I would disagree with. Thanks for the insider’s view of an interesting and scary proving ground. Also for the record, I personally don’t mind grumpy, so long as facts emerge that keep good folks alive, and you’ve provided some insight. I hope everyone else enjoys debating this stuff as much as I do; always more to learn.

Yammy:

In my opinion, the knife is not a "get the bad guy to stop" tool. It is a "creating space so I can get away or access something better" tool.

Marine one:

My answer is a knife should be used to allow someone the time and space to either get to a primary or secondary weapon, or make that weapon usable to defend themselves.

Last thing that I’d like to add to the record; I think these guys both said what I was trying to say with less words. For whatever it’s worth, the training scenarios that I refered to, whether that spyderco/Erik Remmen, or whomever, all involved possible situations where the firearm is impractical to access (like when a guy who outweighs me by 80 pounds is on top of me trying to rip a dummy gun from the holster, or when two “bikers” are trying to effect an abduction and have full-body hemmed me in, etc.), and all the “eye opening” exercises I was mentioning fall squarely into the category defined by Marine and Yammy. Also for what it is worth, every one of the folks that I have (and do) study/studied the knife under were formally educated shooters as well, so I am pretty sure that we’re all at least playing in the same ballpark on these ideas. I also freely admit that my "gym n' mat" training is not reality either, but I hope it's the closest I ever get.


Good thread so far.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Absolutely, yes. You always use the minimum amount of force necessary and reasonable to defend yourself. If it's a crazed 14 year old boy, not overly large, with a stick or other blunt contact weapon, for example, you'd *probably* feel comfortable and effective in repelling the attack with a knife for long enough to escape rather than wasting a kid. Easy question. It's always a judgment call on the force continuum, at least among the levels on the continuum you happen to have with you at the time of the attack.

 

[YammyMonkey]

A knife is not a step below a firearm on the force continuum. Both are legally considered deadly force & the same requirements must be met before using either. Use the best weapon you have that is appropriate & accessible.

A 2” blade can easily make a hole deeper than 2” if you drive it with enough force to compress additional tissue against the tip. If you’re doing your best rendition of a Singer sewing machine on soft tissue that tissue will compress under the force of the blow & make the wound channel larger. If you punch someone in the chest there is very little give & your fist won’t go very deep. If you punch someone in the stomach your fist goes considerably deeper. Nobody will mistake you & your TDI for Vlad the Impaler but to say that a 2” blade only creates a 2” wound is a severe oversimplification. A 6” blade will make a more effective weapon, but most of us would have a hard time concealing a Bowie knife. Almost anyone can conceal a Clinch Pick or TDI. Just like the handgun/rifle availability vs. power issue.

The other thing some are overlooking is the potential damage on retraction. If you’re just playing Stabbey the Clown you’re missing the potential to open up a very large wound on retraction. If you have the presence of mind (big if, but that’s what training is for) to stab in & rip out you could end up inflicting a horrible wound on someone. As always, the target will dictate the ability to use any particular tactics, techniques & procedures.

For the “I’d just shoot ‘em” crowd- you’re ignoring the possibility that you might not have the space, time or position to draw your gun.

For those who “Never let anyone get that close” you’re full of it. You don’t know if the guy behind you at the grocery store is the next BTK or just a googley-eyed weirdo who spends too much time on the internet in his mommy’s basement. Either way he’s still within an arm’s reach & going for your gun at that point, without some solid positional dominance, is going to get really ugly for you.

Finally, for the “You always get cut with a knife” crowd I’ll deal with that, take my anti-viral meds & be sick like dog for quite a while & get on with my life it means I still get to be alive. If you have to shoot someone you’ll suffer some permanent hearing loss whether you realize it or not. Suck it up, do what you need to to end the fight & be thankful that you’re still consuming oxygen & creating carbon dioxide.
.

 

[M2 Carbine]

....

 

[crebralfix]

For the OP:

Yes, I would use a knife if needed. I have trained in the use of knives in fighting. Much of the training involves learning the martial arts surrounding the use of weapons. Fortunately, what takes months and years to learn for hand, knife and stick can be learned in several DEDICATED weeks for handgun (so figure a year or two if the student attends two or three defensive gun classes per year). It is for this reason, guns will be the "go to" weapon of choice for a long time to come.

We're at the point with this "technology" that people have figured out that techniques for handgun, knife, stick and hand are mostly the same. I think this sort of thing is up and coming, but I also don't follow martial arts. What's most interesting is using the gun as a blunt weapon...using the same movements one uses for knife and stick. Even the shooting aspect holds similarities in footwork and presentation. The knife and hand techniques obviously apply even if one hand is tied up holding a handgun. Hands are up for empty hand and knife; they're also up for the gun's "Contact Ready" position. I really like the integration since I only need to remember one set of techniques with very few deltas rather than different techniques for everything. Training my brain's reactions has become much easier now due to this integration; I have some good defaults as a result of the training regardless of method.

Take a look at Larry Lindenman and SouthNarc's stuff if this interests you.

 

[RatDrall]

A 2” blade can easily make a hole deeper than 2” if you drive it with enough force to compress additional tissue against the tip. If you’re doing your best rendition of a Singer sewing machine on soft tissue that tissue will compress under the force of the blow & make the wound channel larger. If you punch someone in the chest there is very little give & your fist won’t go very deep. If you punch someone in the stomach your fist goes considerably deeper. Nobody will mistake you & your TDI for Vlad the Impaler but to say that a 2” blade only creates a 2” wound is a severe oversimplification. A 6” blade will make a more effective weapon, but most of us would have a hard time concealing a Bowie knife. Almost anyone can conceal a Clinch Pick or TDI. Just like the handgun/rifle availability vs. power issue.

The other thing some are overlooking is the potential damage on retraction. If you’re just playing Stabbey the Clown you’re missing the potential to open up a very large wound on retraction. If you have the presence of mind (big if, but that’s what training is for) to stab in & rip out you could end up inflicting a horrible wound on someone. As always, the target will dictate the ability to use any particular tactics, techniques & procedures.

For the “I’d just shoot ‘em” crowd- you’re ignoring the possibility that you might not have the space, time or position to draw your gun.

For those who “Never let anyone get that close” you’re full of it. You don’t know if the guy behind you at the grocery store is the next BTK or just a googley-eyed weirdo who spends too much time on the internet in his mommy’s basement. Either way he’s still within an arm’s reach & going for your gun at that point, without some solid positional dominance, is going to get really ugly for you.

Best post in the thread, I just checked back here and was going to type something similar.

What I will add is that with a knife, a cut can be a half inch, or a few feet, depending on how it is made (even with a 2" blade).

All cuts are not equal.

In a knife fight you will ALWAYS get cut, well unless you are an expert or ninja

Definately not true. I was attacked with a knife (not in the gym), no one got cut, and I'm not an expert or a ninja or an expert ninja.

 

[mgregg85]

I'd rather be in a fist fight than a knife fight. If all I had was a knife I'd be very careful in employing it in a fight because I have zero training in knife fighting.

 

[sarduy]

Like many others here, I always carry a pocket knife in addition to my CCW. I've always thought of my knife as a tool and not a weapon, but lately I've been wondering if there are any realistic scenarios where it would be preferable to employ a knife over a pistol as a defensive weapon.

only when you run out of ammo

 

[jon_in_wv]

I'd rather be in a fist fight than a knife fight.

And may I add, I would prefer to bring a gun to a knife fight, or at least a nice broad sword.

 

[thorazine]

Would you ever draw your knife instead of your pistol?

Does tossing it on the ground at the feet of my attacker(s) and telling them to pick it up count?

 

[cipher]

I assume you guys are talking about grappling ranges, else drawing a knife would be pointless.

At grappling ranges, a knife can easily be more effective than a pistol. Even no weapon at all is better. The only way I'd say a pistol is better is if you extensively practiced shooting in these specific scenarios. If a guy drew a 1911 on an unarmed guy at grappling ranges, I'd actually put my money on the unarmed guy, assuming he knew how to fight a little bit.

Don't get me wrong, a knife's not near as lethal as people imagine, unless you use it right (or use it over and over and over). But the key is that a guy who goes for his gun is most likely gonna fixate on it. The entire human body can be used as a weapon. I've seen a guy pick up somebody and body slam him in a street fight when I was younger. After they ran we saw the guy had left behind a revolver; apparently he drew but never got a chance to fire. Stuff happens too fast. Even with a knife you can fixate, but you're more likely to use your whole body.

The way I'd figure the scenario would play out is: The guy draws a pistol and tries to point it at you. You grab the pistol/arm in both hands, if you're unarmed, and he struggles with both hands to get a shot off. You realize instinctively that you're the underdog and something's gotta give so you use your leverage to try and bring him down. He's trying everything to make use of the gun, which is already in his hands, if only he could just get it a little bit closer.

If you drew a knife, your one arm and a bit of movement should keep the gun off target for long enough for you to plant it in the guy's temple. Once again, he's got both arms on the damn gun. Of course, if he manages to get some breathing room at all, you might be screwed in all this.

If you've actually trained in a martial art that practices grappling and/or self defense, I'd put up my house on you coming out on top.

Reading back through my post I think I should add another thing: If you're a woman or somewhat...nonathletic male, you might want to stick to that gun.

 

[YammyMonkey]

It doesn't matter what condition you're in. Introducing a gun during a physical fight is a losing deal. The only time a gun, or any weapon, should come out during physical contact is if you have the positional dominance to ensure you can use that weapon effectively. Wrestling over a gun or a knife or whatever is a bad place to be.

 

[GLOOB]

As has been stated, possibly in a grappling scenario against an unarmed assailant. This completely negates the "knife needs to be contact distance" argument, because you're already in contact distance. And assuming the guy is really trying to kill you, the guy is definitely not going to give you MORE distance once you pull a gun. He's going to continue doing his best to immobilize you and/or disarm you by staying right on top of you. Being a bit sharper and pointier, a knife is harder to take away from someone.

From the viewpoint of an assailant, a knife might be a good reason to break off and run if things aren't going completely his way and he's getting tired (grappling will wear out the average person in well under a minute). A gun pulled at this point is more of a reason to maintain control of the fight until the opponent is disarmed.

In any case, it is assumed the guy is getting the best of you and you need a desperation act to change the tide. If you are handling things, then both your hands are likely too busy to draw a weapon, up to the point where you are completely in control of the situation, like YammyMonkey suggests. But at that point, the average citizen may no longer feel the need to draw and fire a gun in SD against an unarmed assailant.

 

[crebralfix]

In Southnarc's ECQC course, I learned that timing is critical in deployment of the firearm in close quarters. Even if the guy starts out eight feet away and he's coming in, the good guy has a big problem. If the good guy starts reaching for a weapon, it's exceptionally easy for the BG to mess up the draw. The brain sorta turns to goo since there's so much stuff going on...and the gun will feel "glued" into the holster. This is where training is essential...training the brain to push through the goo with definitive and decisive action takes time and repetition. But, it can be done and everyone improved over the course of two days.

Add a second bad guy to the equation, and the human "CPU" REALLY slows down. Keeping track of the other guy becomes exceptionally difficult because the brain wants to zero in on BG #1 as he charges in. Brain gooieness happens...and suddenly BG #2 smashes into the good guy from another direction. The good guy is now in a terrible position, especially if he started to draw. Even if the good guy didn't start to introduce a weapon, sometimes either BG will find the gun and go for it.

I cannot emphasize enough the difficulty of handling these situations. Unfortunately, they're also common. Even worse, bad guys have figured out that group attacks are better than solo attacks (which is why gun schools teach the rule of "Plus One"). The problem with most of the training I have seen is that it does not address the "up close and personal" problem. The courses tend to focus on shooting and running the gun. While this is an essential element of the self-defense martial art, it is only one aspect. Many people stop training at this point and don' t know (or are told otherwise) that the class is only the first part.

Combatives training is difficult. Most of the fat Americans out there are not up for it physically or mentally. Getting dinged up over the course of two days just isn't that much fun...it's work, it hurts and there is the real possibility of injury. I have found only a small subset of customers (those who are considered "serious" about their training and attend courses on a regular basis) have any interest in this sort of class. What I'm seeing in the training world now is a slow shift towards training that integrates fitness, knife, hand and gun. Force on force is gaining popularity (but is still gun training) and is perhaps pushing people into combatives. The number of instructors is small, but growing as it becomes more popular.

I also see lots of resistance to it on the gun boards, ranges and classrooms. The mindset of the general gun owning population precludes them from taking ANY training beyond safety. I have seen many posts (and conversations) where guys flat-out state that they'll never attend a defensive firearms course (subjective, I know, but the posts are there). Even getting people to take CCW training is difficult...just compare the number of CCW permits in your state to the number of gun owners. If the number of CCW permits in any given "shall-issue" state represents the majority of folks serious about self-defense, then one would think these defense classes would be overflowing. While the logic is probably flawed, the fact of the matter is only a small percentage of the (legal) gun owning population is willing to carry a gun around. In the end, I believe that most gun owners see no need for training of any sort since they believe their current skill level is sufficient.

 

[20nickels]

Would you ever draw your knife instead of your pistol?

No. Do I carry both, yes. Hideaway Knife, weakhand side on the belt. This knife is unique in that it allows you to do other tasks (shoot) while it is looped ringknife style onto yer hand and always goes with me even when the gun doesn't. It's not like I even know it's there and retention is exceptional because it is custom fit. Options are good.

http://www.hideawayknife.com/main.php