Would you ever draw your knife instead of your pistol?

[jon_in_wv]

Would one of you folks please explain to me why a bullet needs 12+ inches of penetration to be useful but a knife only needs a 2 inch blade? Why have military knives been so large all these years? Why are bayonets 8-18 inches long? I understand you can, if you lucky, slice one of the few arteries that are close to the skins surface or you might magically cut a tendon or sever a muscle (not to likely with a 2-3 inch blade) but what is it that YOU know that none of the rest of society doesn't seem to know? Even in prison, a 2-3 inch shank is laughable. Its considered a "sissy shank". Real shanks have blade of at LEAST 6 inches. Most of them are "ice picks" that are meant to puncture the heart, lungs, organs, etc....The only inmates I've seen severely injured by knives were with long blades that caused serious internal injuries. When they fight with the shorter blades they might get DOZENS of cuts that are completely superficial and didn't do ANYTHING to slow them down. "Snitches" will sometimes get cut from chin to ear to mark them as snitches. I've not seen ONE of the many I've seen that got anything worse than a good scar out of it. No severed arteries, trachea, etc..... And don't think these inmates don't have the time to train with these knives. I would consider them VERY accomplished knife fighters. WHY? Because in their minds its about survival and a very REAL skill to have. Its no hypothetical, its REAL so I think we can learn a little from what we see them do. It seems the PRO knife guys in this thread won't address the facts. I don't care what "Gee Whiz" class you took on how to turn your Spyderco superknife into a sword the fact is that "wavy" blade or not, it is still a small knife. The bottom line is a small knife, is NOT a very good weapon to defend yourself a good attacker. It is a WORLD better than bare hands but you need to recognize its limitations. There are cases where you firearm might not be practical, (in a crowd for instance) but its ALWAYS option 2 to me. My first thought would be how I can deploy my REAL weapon. Then after I have decided I can't, the knife might be my only option. But PLEASE stop acting like its a better one. Even a good, heavy, long bladed military knife is not a firearm. A 3 inch folder DEFINITELY is not. I would suggest if you carry a folder, carry a MINIMUM 3 inch blade. Many state won't allow a blade longer than that but if you have the choice of a 3 inch blade, why carry a 2 inch blade? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[rbernie]

A bullet may have to penetrate intermediate barriers (including upraised arms) to get to the vitals or penetrate from odd angles, and is generally not intended as a contact weapon. A knife is designed to slash (non-fatal, unless you hit an artery) or to puncture, but always as a contact weapon.

 

[unloved]

I think that a regular, non-waved folder, even one-handed or assisted opening, would be hard to quickly deploy in a CQB defensive scenario

conwict,
I think the Wave has severely limited utility in a SD situation(unless we're talking about a frontward, reverse grip draw, like SouthNarc recommends for the P'kal). Draw your knife using a Wave and you end up with a knife that must be shifted in your hand to obtain a fighting grip. That's asking for a dropped knife IMO. Stand with your back against a wall or lay on your back. Can you even perform a Wave draw in those positions? I know I can't do it reliably. I've practiced it quite a bit too.

Autos and assisted opening folders contain springs. Springs fail. I've seen spring failures in 3 of my own knives. Most autos require a degree of dexterity that I'm not sure I'd be able to acheive in a life or death situation. They're not legal here in PA anyway. I'm not aware of any assissted opener drones. I think a drone that at least approximates the knife you carry is absolutely essential.

I like a plain old one hand opener with either a thumb hole or a large thumb stud. I prefer Spyderco's RoundHole. Lots of deployment practice and Force and Force training will produce a better draw and grip than is possible using a Wave.

 

[jon_in_wv]

A bullet may have to penetrate intermediate barriers (including upraised arms) to get to the vitals or penetrate from odd angles, and is generally not intended as a contact weapon. A knife is designed to slash (non-fatal, unless you hit an artery) or to puncture, but always as a contact weapon.

Rbernie, I have nothing but respect for you but your kind of stating the obvious here. The knife is obviously a contact weapon but a 2-3 inch blade as a "slashing weapon" is not very effective and just as much so for puncture wounds. A 12 inch cruciform bayonet will show you what a puncture wound is! A 2-3 inch blade will take very sturdy construction and a LOT of force to strike hard enough to puncture a rib cage to puncture a lung or the heart. The fact its a "contact" weapon doesn't address any of its short comings or ineffectiveness. If you that close to your attacker, he can reach YOU too. I doubt he will stand idly and let you slice him up without resistance. And you MAY have intermediate barriers. Are you saying he won't put his hands up? Or block with his arms? I guarantee he will. When we take inmates to medical after a knife fight, where to think the majority of their cuts are? They aren't in the torso, they are usually full of nice gashes on their arms.
I'm not saying a knife, even a small one can't be deadly. Just like a 22lr it surely can be. But I think some have a bit of an unrealistic opinion of just how effective they are.

 

[rbernie]

Absolutely all true. You asked why 12" of penetration out of a bullet was considered useful but a knife could get away with less, and I tried to answer it.

I didn't try to defend the knife as equal in utility. If I misunderstood the point of your comments - my bad.

 

[YammyMonkey]

I thought I replied to this a while back, but I guess not. A knife can be very useful in a situation where you can't access your firearm (gun grab, bad position, etc.) That said, NO weapon is a substitute for a good position. Get your positioning figure out first so you can access your weapon (knife, gun, Bic pen, whatever) & then go to town.

While a small blade may be harder to use, it can be put to good use just like a pistol is harder to use than a rifle or shotgun. Most of us can't carry around a foot long bayonet so we make do with what we have. One thing we have to consider is that the soft tissues will compress so a 2" knife could give us a much larger wound because of the force applied to it. Without putting much force behind it, I can poke my finger into my thigh about 1" because the relatively soft tissue is being compressed. That compression would lead to a much larger wound channel if I was stabbing myself. Compound that with a slashing movement on the retraction & you have a lot more damaged area than you would with a pistol bullet.

Targeting is just as important, if not more so, with a knife than with a firearm. While a heart shot with a gun is a good thing you'll have a hard time getting that with any knife. Targeting soft, highly vascular areas is the way to go. Think kidneys, groin, armpit, neck, large muscle groups.

In my opinion, the knife is not a "get the bad guy to stop" tool. It is a "creating space so I can get away or access something better" tool.

While it is not perfect, it is foolish to disregard the knife as only something useful for opening letters or cutting twine.

The following is not directed at anyone in particular, unless it applies to you.

This is probably getting off into the weeds a little, but this is a common theme in the gun world. The attitude of "I don't train (knife, hand to hand, stick, general fitness, verbal de-escalation, etc.) because (it doesn't work, I have a gun, that's not a defensive tool, etc.)" While that's all fine & dandy when you're in condition white in front of your computer with a bag of Doritos & a liter of Mountain Dew, reality is far different. If you don't know when & how to use your body, knife, etc to fight you are wrong. Likewise, if you don't have any medical skills, you are wrong. We all have training deficiencies & issues to fix. Stop obsessing over the tool & get to work on you.

 

[SniperStraz]

Well stated YammyMonkey. Great post. Although I do believe that a 2in blade can be extremely lethal in the right hands, as far as the average joe is concerned it is not a superior alternative to a firearm. If it were all I had on me, or the only thing I could get to in a pinch, you can be darn sure that I would make good use of it rather than curling up in the fetal position and sucking on my thumb.
Jon in WV There is no doubt that a larger knife (within reason) is superior to a smaller one, and I enjoyed reading your post. It is true that a lot can be learned by watching prisoners. However not everyone can carry a KaBar on their belt all the time.

 

[Blackbeard]

If I were threatened while standing knee-deep in gasoline, I'd go for the knife.

 

[unloved]

Originally posted by B yond

Can anyone see ANY realistic reason to choose a knife over a pistol for self-defense?

Not as a matter of course, but I can easily imagine a situation in which I'm trying to keep my pistol holstered while an attacker tries to take it from me. That's why I carry several knives, always including one for exclusive use with my right hand(I'm a southpaw), and usually a fixed blade that I can draw with either hand.

 

[joecoastie]

In any case of close combat a knife can be used. over a gun of course most of us would get the gun. But what if they attack and you cant react in time? in a struggle on the ground you would try to retain your weapon from being taken from you. So, reach into your reaction side pocket and pull out a knife, or on your belt reaction side. it would have to be a fixed blade or spring assisted of course. But yeah a knife is a great idea. i myslef have had to sweep my house a few times and i have my glock 19 in my right hand and my knife in my left hand at the ready for defensive striking.

 

[SniperStraz]

Hey there joecoastie

i myslef have had to sweep my house a few times

Welcome to THR
What situation were you in that you needed to sweep your own home?

 

[flrfh213]

i never had a rope attack me... but i see it this way, if i have a need to defend myself with a weapon, i am going to shoot them, short of that it is a all out brawl

 

[jon_in_wv]

Jon in WV There is no doubt that a larger knife (within reason) is superior to a smaller one, and I enjoyed reading your post. It is true that a lot can be learned by watching prisoners. However not everyone can carry a KaBar on their belt all the time.

TOO TRUE. My thoughts are mostly directed at the commandos who seem to think their tacticool folder is a fearsome weapon. The fact is its NOT. Can it be lethal? Of course, but not nearly as lethal as some would think in a fight. I carry a 3 inch folder. And there have been man reasons listed why I may go to it rather than my 9mm. But more effective at close range? NOT so. If you had no other choice and were able to stab it into an arm, thigh, neck, whatever, I'm sure you would get your point across quite well but a BULLET through the same area will make that same statement, even better in my opinion.

You asked why 12" of penetration out of a bullet was considered useful but a knife could get away with less, and I tried to answer it.

By saying you were stating the obvious I was more referring to the idea that the knife was a contact weapon and that it could do with less penetration. I agree on BOTH points BUT this idea doesn't negate the fact that if you are really going to stop an attacker, you need sufficient penetration to do the type of damage that will incapacitate them. Some are advocating 2 inch blades? Thats a FAR cry from the amount of penetration you should look for and much too small to cause serious damage without a LOT of luck. Trying to cut an attacker with a small, short blade is not likely to cut very deeply.

I think I'm a little fixated on the ideal of whether or not the blade is an effective weapon because some of the statements made just seemed a little unrealistic to me BUT the real topic is whether I would go to my knife INSTEAD of my gun in any situation and there are some really decent examples listed. The knife is definitely a good tool to keep on you and its a lot better than harsh language if for some reason you firearm is out of the picture!

 

[B yond]

If I were threatened while standing knee-deep in gasoline, I'd go for the knife.

That's funny right there.

 

[jon_in_wv]

I would just run away and flick a cigarette at it. Then I would jump in the air when it explodes so I'll be thrown clear. Works in the movies.

 

[Bishop.357]

I carry two knives,one is my old springopen tactical boot knife from my army days,and the other is a razor edged gutting knife. When I was in the army I had advanced training in edged weapon combat,and I still practice a few days a week. If you have the proper training there are many advantages to useing a knife in close qurarters combat as opposed to tryin' to use a gun in a situation that calls for up close and personal contact.

 

[jon_in_wv]

The army uses 3 inch folders? or 2-3 inch fixed blades? Because, really thats what we are talking about here.

 

[conw]

Jon, interesting point. This seems to confirm your observations about shivs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rOwzwnXGXg

Anyway, I'm pretty sure that a 2-3" knife is more dangerous than you say here, Jon--

The only inmates I've seen severely injured by knives were with long blades that caused serious internal injuries. When they fight with the shorter blades they might get DOZENS of cuts that are completely superficial and didn't do ANYTHING to slow them down

--but obviously not as deadly as a larger blade. And without the option for stopping the threat fast, that's for sure.

I agree with most of the rest of what you say, and I enjoy your posts...thanks.

 

[conw]

Unloved,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK6lOTz1Ebs&feature=related

That seems to demonstrate that about the same movement of the hand on the handle, from first touch during draw to opening, takes place on the same knife comparing Waved vs spydie hole.

I wasn't even really suggesting waved as being reliable, just seems more consistently reliable than a thumb hole, but YMMV. Of course, most Waved knives have both options anyway.

 

[MarineOne]

I like the way everyone has answered this question, but I'm not sure we truly realize how well a GOOD backup knife will help us when it's needed the most.

A knife is a close contact slashing/stabbing weapon for seriously up close defensive fighting. Take any decent assisted open or fixed blade that you would use for defensive purposes and try striking a piece of London Broil (or other thick cut of meat) in a fashion similar to how you would strike or slash at an attacker. Minus the gushing blood and screaming, this will be very close to what would happen in real life.

We also need to remember that trauma isn't solely "physical" trauma but it is also "mental" trauma as well. Most people will lose their mental bearing at the site of their own blood, or someone else's, and in extreme cases can go into a panic attack or even shock. Now think of the effects a sharp retractable razor in a carpet knife or drywall knife can make on a human body. While it's true you're not stabbing a vital organ, you're still cutting the largest organ of the human body and you can cut alot of it quickly and easily.

The other thing we need to remember is that wounds on the hands and head will bleed profusely. I'm sure someone here has cut a finger or cracked their head on something, and the one thing I can guarantee they remember is how bad that wound bled.




Now to answer the question of should a knife be used or pulled in place of a pistol?

My answer is a knife should be used to allow someone the time and space to either get to a primary or secondary weapon, or make that weapon usable to defend themselves. This could mean you switched weapons and didn't have the ability to completely switch, a weapons malfunction (stove pipe, reload, FTF/FTE, etc.), or in the ensuing scuffle your weapon was dropped and you now have the ability to retrieve/access it again.



Kris

 

[jon_in_wv]

Conwict, what I said about the effectiveness of small blades was based on observations of the FACTS surrounding actual fights involving small blades. You can dispute them if you wish but it is what I have personally observed, thats all. I have also said they are indeed deadly and can and will cause serious injury and even death BUT there are some that are implying (or outright claiming) that small bladed knives are MORE effective at very close range than a pistol. That is what I'm addressing so take my comments in that context. If a knife is all I have, I hope its a BIG one. If a small knife is all I have, then its going to be a long, ugly night.

Now to answer the question of should a knife be used or pulled in place of a pistol?

My answer is a knife should be used to allow someone the time and space to either get to a primary or secondary weapon, or make that weapon usable to defend themselves. This could mean you switched weapons and didn't have the ability to completely switch, a weapons malfunction (stove pipe, reload, FTF/FTE, etc.), or in the ensuing scuffle your weapon was dropped and you now have the ability to retrieve/access it again.

Oorah.

I agree with most of the rest of what you say, and I enjoy your posts...thanks.

Your Welcome! BTW. I only agree with MOST of my posts too.

 

[travellingJeff]

If I had to open a box or remove a binding cord, perhaps.

Defensively, no.

Close in shooting is something that I've spent hours practicing, I've got no desire to leave my expensive tool in the holster while I utilize a less effective tool. If I'm going "lethal", I'm going as lethal as possible.

 

[unloved]

originally posted by conwict:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK6lO...eature=related

That seems to demonstrate that about the same movement of the hand on the handle, from first touch during draw to opening, takes place on the same knife comparing Waved vs spydie hole.

The video shows the forward draw into reverse grip(SouthNarc style) I mentioned in an earlier post. IMO(and I'm not claiming expert status, I'm just a guy who's put a lot of thought into the subject and has a bit of training on edged weapons) this draw is a viable technique.


Take a look at this. The relevant portion begins at 0:21.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecT4jP5QSKo&feature=related
This video illustrates the typical Wave draw I was referring to. Note how far his hand travels behind him. Imagine a situation in which you don't have room to execute this type of draw.
Note the weak grip when the knife clears the pocket. The knife must be shifted in your hand in order to obtain a fighting grip. Imagine trying to do that while under violent attack. Better yet, use a drone and try it with a training partner.
To give credit where it is due, I learned everything I know about defending against and employing edged weapons from mercop. I highly recommend him as a trainer.

 

[sidheshooter]

I wanted to let this one run it's course a bit before responding again. Since I am (so far as I can see) the only one to specifically mention a spyderco course, I thought I'd post my original comment again, with a bit of follow-up.

There is always an exception to a rule. I have trained with a few good "tactical" knife guys, and each one had me doing some eye-opening drills in scenarios taken from real-life altercations; elevators, getting grabbed from underneath a car while getting in, getting hemmed in by two "burly thugs" and "steered" away from the public, etc...

Probably the most interesting for gunfolk was the original Spyderco clip-it course offered by Erik Remmen. That guy will have you believing in carrying a small mousefolder on each side pretty quick with some demonstrations of the above scenarios. And, yes, weapon retention was a big part of the weekend.

It's another tool. It goes, as the mods say mindset, training and tools. A knife can be a great tool, if you know what it's good for. In trained hands in an elevator, it's hard to beat SHTF style.

Plus, knives are cheap, and the classes are cheap too, by comparison to a good shooting class. No reason not to be well-rounded, IMHO.

Other opinions might vary.

Please note both my first and last sentences.

That said, I don't carry a shiv. I carry an Emerson folder, of one model or another, as a rule; as well as a small fixed blade in kydex (polkowski, nealy, perrin) fairly often. If there are shivs in a correctional facility that are as capable of a cutting counter as an Emerson, Polkowski (or similar) piece, then the security there needs more of an overhaul than Somalian health care.

Guns are the American martial art, and nothing levels the field like a gun. With only the observation that purpose-designed knives are almost certainly more versatile in a defensive situation than a concealable sharpened stick of steel or plastic, I'm probably not that far out of alignment with most here. At the risk of making this topic too dark for a public forum, "stopping" may well mean that tendons have curled up in their sheaths to the point that tools (hands) are no longer cabable of inflicting death or grave bodily injury. Doesn't mean that an aggressor isn't awake enough to swear like a drill sergeant driving a truck over a winter mountain pass at midnite.

The OP question was "would you ever", as opposed to "are you likely", or "would you prefer to". The answer is still yes (IMHO), as there is an exception to every rule (cooper's 4 excepted, of course).

Again, other opinions can and will vary, and that's fine by me as well.

Lastly–if I may flip this around for a second–If I was trapped in a small elevator (or on the ground with an attacker mounted) with someone suddenly drawing down on me, and I had an instant to effect a counter, I personally think I'd prefer (though not by much, obviously) to see a handgun clearing leather than, say, a purpose driven fighter like a REKAT hobbit, polkowski bulldog pug, or even a cold steel peacekeeper.

Those of you that know something about disarm techniques, put your feet in the other shoes for a sec. Which would you prefer to have to clear off your body/line while trying to avoid sustaining damage in that scenario? That might be another way to explore an answer to the original question right there.

Again, I am no pro operator, just an enthusiastic amateur nobody. I really am sincerely asking for other's honest answers here on that scenario, FWEIW...

 

[unloved]

sideshooter,

Do you know if Erik Remmen is still teaching? I read about his Clipit course years ago and always wanted to check it out. I can't find any current info on him.