Inadequate signage, CHL TX

[ready4shtf]

I had an job interview the other day and I was very careful to notice that there were NO "30.06" signs posted, as requried in Texas if you want to prohibit CCWs in your business. They might have had the picture of a gun with the circle slashy thing, but we all know that dosent matter. Long story short, I got the job and after reading the "Employee Handbook". I noticed one of the rules is "No handguns or concealed weapons of any type. Violators will be prosecuted for Criminal Trespass".

So the question is... Ovbiously they cant restrict CHL because they dont have 30.06 posted. I'm prob just going to "deep conceal" the G26, but I wanted to get opinions first...... Technically I dont think they can even legally charge you with criminal trespass if they dont have the sign, right?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Arkansas is much the same way, with a very specific legal description of what must be on any signange, so "technically" the gun/circle/slash signs here don't mean anything....yet many prosecutors have said they will follow through if someone carries on property with the "technically wrong" signage.

The law is a multi-faceted thing, not the least of which is horespower -- cubic inches or cubic dollars, you gotta pay to play.

 

[ready4shtf]

My main concern was with the employee manual......... Does that change anything? Since I was required to read it and my CHL is a blatant disregard for their rules?

 

[Keith Wheeler]

Well, I bet Texas shares something else with Arkansas -- "at will employment". They can fire you for anything.

 

[ready4shtf]

Very true. Not concerned with getting fired . More concerned with criminal trespassing on my record..........

 

[MechAg94]

They might be able to say you knew their policy and still elected to carry, however, I think all they can do is fire you.
My company has that policy. They are up front in saying that you won't be prosecuted, but you will be terminated immediately, no appeal, no discussion.

 

[Texas Colt]

Keith is right. Texas is an "at will" employment state, so even though you are legal to carry since they don't post the 30.06 sign, you could still be fired for breaking company policy. I am in the same situation. I leave my gun in the truck.

 

[Kentak]

Be a test case and get back to us. Seriously, you'd have to research case law of exactly similar situations to get a handle on your concern. Are you planning on concealing during work?

K

 

[Kentak]

I bet they would just fire you immediately and not bother with charges, groundless or not.

K

 

[ConstitutionCowboy]

Check The Law

Check Texas corporate law - the law that creates and governs corporations - and see if it has anything in it where it might prohibit corporations from infringing, or having a bylaw inconsistent with, the rights of its employees(shareholders, officers, etc). Oklahoma corporate law does, so your state might as well.

If your state has such law, it might be a better avenue to pursue than the Second Amendment. With all the liberal judges out there, they may be more apt to follow state law.

Remember, corporations are not people and they do not have rights. Corporations only have powers granted to them in state law.

Woody

"The Right of the People to move about freely in a secure manner shall not be infringed. Any manner of self defense shall not be restricted, regardless of the mode of travel or where you stop along the way, as it is the right so enumerated at both the beginning and end of any journey." B.E.Wood

 

[Vic303]

As I understand it, you have now been made aware by manual, of the employers prohibition against weapons on the premises. This applys to you the employee. It does not apply to the general non-employee population however, without a 30-06 sign on every entrance.

 

[Kentak]

On the other hand. Have you considered that the lack of "proper" signage may not protect you? You are not some Joe Blow CHL walking into the premises, but an employee who has been given notice via the employee handbook. On that basis alone you may be on shaky legal ground.

K

 

[Kentak]

Sorry Vic, you posted while I was writing.

 

[TC-TX]

Vic303 is correct.

Under Texas CHL statute - you HAVE been given notice that CC is not allowed.

That satisifies the legal notification under PC 30.06 (a) (2) (A)
- that is You HAVE received notice that "entry on the property by a license holder with a concealed handgun was forbidden"

An offense under this section is a Class A Misdemeanor.

 

[TX1911fan]

Section 30.06 of the Penal Code states that it is an offense if you recieved notice that carrying or remaining on the property with a concealed handgun was not permitted. Notice is defined as either oral or written communication, and written communication is further defined as a card or other document with the 30.06 language, or, of course, the 30.06 sign.

So, it appears that if the notice is in writing, it has to use the correct words. If it is oral, they can say whatever they want. If you are reviewing the handbook and your trainer points out that handguns are prohibited, you have just received oral notice, and hence are in violaton of the law. If they just hand you the handbook, and it is only written, then you are technically not in violation (assuming a judge doesn't interpret 30.06 differently than I just did).

This is not legal advice, by the way. I'm just reporting on the statute.

§ 30.06. TRESPASS BY HOLDER OF LICENSE TO CARRY CONCEALED
HANDGUN. (a) A license holder commits an offense if the license
holder:
(1) carries a handgun under the authority of
Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, on property of another
without effective consent; and
(2) received notice that:
(A) entry on the property by a license holder
with a concealed handgun was forbidden; or
(B) remaining on the property with a concealed
handgun was forbidden and failed to depart.
(b) For purposes of this section, a person receives notice
if the owner of the property or someone with apparent authority to
act for the owner provides notice to the person by oral or written
communication.
(c) In this section:
(1) "Entry" has the meaning assigned by Section
30.05(b).
(2) "License holder" has the meaning assigned by
Section 46.035(f).
(3) "Written communication" means:
(A) a card or other document on which is written
language identical to the following: "Pursuant to Section 30.06,
Penal Code (trespass by holder of license to carry a concealed
handgun), a person licensed under Subchapter H, Chapter 411,
Government Code (concealed handgun law), may not enter this
property with a concealed handgun"; or
(B) a sign posted on the property that:
(i) includes the language described by
Paragraph (A) in both English and Spanish;
(ii) appears in contrasting colors with
block letters at least one inch in height; and
(iii) is displayed in a conspicuous manner
clearly visible to the public.
(d) An offense under this section is a Class A misdemeanor.
(e) It is an exception to the application of this section
that the property on which the license holder carries a handgun is
owned or leased by a governmental entity and is not a premises or
other place on which the license holder is prohibited from carrying
the handgun under Section 46.03 or 46.035.

 

[isa268]

if caught the cops will probably be called. and you might be put in the back seat of a cruiser till they sort things out they might even take you downtown. and you might even have to prove that the sign was not legal.

BUT I CAN GUARANTEE THAT YOU WILL GET FIRED FOR BREAKING COMPANY POILCY.

so i guess its up to you. my company has the same policy, i carry sometimes at work

 

[The_Shootist]

Nod, The Same

I figure they would fire you and not bring criminal tresspass charges against you.

In a gun friendly state like Texas, why would a company chance any ugly publicity? Particularly in Houston, where all your defense attorney would have to do in closing arguments is face the jury, shrug, and then begin by saying "As you know, after Katrina, the area murder rate jumped 22%.....etc."

An actual conviction mught be a bit...ummm...iffy under those circumstances so I have my doubts the DA would push it that far. Particularly in this area where we have heftier concerns

 

[ready4shtf]

Still havent decided wether I will carry or not. I will prob just leave in the car with the longarms and carry a folder. After all, I can see my truck from my window and can be outside in in a matter of seconds.

 

[mp510]

In a gun friendly state like Texas, why would a company chance any ugly publicity?

I would bet that it has to do more with fear of liability than anything else.

 

[Zundfolge]

I'd bet that 90%+ of all "Employee Manuals" are written from template employee manuals (like this one). The vast majority of these template employee manuals are written by people in anti-gun areas (New York City, Chicago, LA, etc) and/or Federal Government agencies (I believe the Department of Labor has sample employee manuals available).

Many companies have no idea that their employee manual has a "No Guns" clause, nor do they care. I'd also bet that many companies would remove it if their employees got together and complained (of course if they won't, you've just flagged yourself for extra scrutiny should they decide to get "proactive" and start searching employees for guns).

Anyway, Texas law on the issue is just silly for a state that's supposed to be so darn pro gun ... Thank God I live in Colorado where the only way they can keep me from carrying legally on their property is to install metal detectors.


The company I work for is small, but I and another department head have been tasked with creating the Employee Handbook (whenever we have some spare time ... so its likely to be never ).

I've already written the weapons policy. It simply states "No employee may illegally carry weapons on company property. Violation will result in diciplinary action up to termination."

 

[TX1911fan]

Zundfolge, I won't disagree that Texas law is too restrictive when it comes to carrying weapons, but are you telling me that Colorado law prohibits a private property owner from banning weapons from the premises unless they install a metal detector?

What about this provision?

(5) nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

This seems to suggest that a private employer still has its right to keep you out if it doesn't want you carrying. Is that not the case?

 

[mec]

very doubtful that the company would or could prosecute you for 30:06 as you are not trespassing until they catch you and order you off the premises. Who ever wrote your employee's handbook apparently is given to bombast and is but indifferent honest.

I worked for a state agency that immediately posted the sign when the law passed. A few years later, the legislature told them that they cannot enforce criminal trespass on citizens of the state and the signs came down. they retained the right to have anti-gun- anti self defense language in their employee policy but could not forbid non employee licensees from carrying on premises. By and large Texas, like other places is only so-so pro gun. In this particular building, a number of the employees were so frightened of guns that the sight of an armed security guard made them ill. They complained and the security guards were relegated to acting as front desk receptionists. Oddly enough, the anti gun employees still regarded them as security guards and expected protection.

 

[Nitrogen]

OK, i'm going to make it easy.

If you recieve WRITTEN notice that guns are not allowed, to be charged with criminal tresspass by CHL holder, the written notice MUST BE in the format specified by 30.06.

a sign that says "no guns allowed" doesn't cut it. Neither does writing, "no dangerous weapons on company property" cut it either.
NOW:
If you receive VERBAL notice, that notice does not have to follow any specific form.
If your boss tells you, "Don't bring guns in here" especially if there are witnesses, then you can be charged with criminal tresspass by a CHL holder.
This includes if someone mentions that guns are not allowed on company during an orientation.

Also, refusal to leave the premises after being made is not necessary. All that is necessary is that you were given notice in one of the 2 ways listed above, and you were made. That's it.

Also realise that the regular tresspass provision of 30.05 apply: if you are asked to leave and don't, even if the place is not posted properly, you're in violation.

Also note that state owned property is exempt: you cannot post 30.06 on any state property that isn't previously listed as forbidden in 46.03 and 46.035.

Breaking this statute is a Class A misdemeanor, meaning you can go to jail, pay a fine, and lose your CHL for 5 years.

 

[Zundfolge]

Zundfolge, I won't disagree that Texas law is too restrictive when it comes to carrying weapons, but are you telling me that Colorado law prohibits a private property owner from banning weapons from the premises unless they install a metal detector?

What about this provision?

(5) nothing in this part 2 shall be construed to limit, restrict, or prohibit in any manner the existing rights of a private property owner, private tenant, private employer, or private business entity.

This seems to suggest that a private employer still has its right to keep you out if it doesn't want you carrying. Is that not the case?

What I meant was that there is nothing in the CCW code that can be used against you if a private property owner doesn't want you to CCW on their property.

If you put a sign up and I carry anyway, all you can do is ask me to leave (and then I can be arrested for trespassing IF I refuse).

In Texas, the presence of the sign skips the "ask you to leave" step and can be used to automatically revoke your CHL. In Colorado you can have all the signs you want, the only way I'll lose my CHL by walking on to your property is if I have to walk through a metal detector.


CCW on private property against the owners wishes is not against the law here ... remaining on the property after you've been asked to leave is.

 

[TX1911fan]

Got it. Now I understand. I like that way much better.