Levers For the Cops

[JImbothefiveth]

A shotgun might have a certain level of effectiveness here as well, because the energy exerted through the body armor might cause blunt force trauma.

One of them was hit with the shotgun, he just spun around and kept on fighting.

The distance would have also made the shot harder for the suspects

The suspects had rifles, the officers had pistols. Rifles are usually far better than pistols at longer ranges.

It might have been a long shot, but if you could have hidden at least some of those 19 officers in that professional building and spread them throughout the building,

The officers also had to contain the robbers, they were trying to escape and would likely kill some innocents if they did.

Over 600 rounds were fired at Emil Matasareanu and Larry Phillips, Jr, during the conflict

I think a good number of rounds actually hit them, but were defeated by the body armor.

 

[Float Pilot]

I was a Law Dawg from 1982 until 2002 with a few periods of military activation.

1. In police work it is not so much shooting, but avoiding shooting.

Crashing through the door of a bad situation and obtaining compliance of all involved via command presence.
I carried a Valmet M-76FS and later a Car-15, plus 1100 or 870 Rem Riot gun for long guns. For most of those years I carried a Sig P220 as a sidearm.
I shot all of them on a weekly basis and made sure everyone in my patrol area knew that I did.

2. Law Enforcement shootings, by their nature draw lawyers like flies to a pile of manure.

Using a firearm and cartridge that has already been tested, tried and approved by some large government agency helps to keep the law suits away.
If you have to explain to a jury why you went out and built up your own personal people blaster, then you might as well just sign over the deed to your house right now...

 

[ilbob]

I think the cool factor has a lot to do with the AR platform being the rifle of choice for police departments.

Chances of anyone needing to duke it out for more than a few rounds are very slim.

An AR does have the advantage of being able to be fitted with a lot of nifty gadgets, some of which actually add to the utility of the gun.

Its well proven, and being as a lot of LE people are former military, chances are they are already familiar with it.

 

[TAB]

Cops should not be armed with anything the public can not buy.

 

[ilbob]

The North Hollywood shootout mostly proved the LAPD was completely unprepared for that type of action.

 

[TAB]

The North Hollywood shootout mostly proved the LAPD was completely unprepared for that type of actio

we have a winner...

 

[P-32]

As a LEO firearms inst. let me throw this in. Shooting at a targets held together with wood frames is different than shooting at a human target shooting back. I don't know of to many people who are able to score 100% at the range all the time either, unless your name is Tubbs. My guys and gals have few out and out misses. My department requires at least a 80% average beteeen two targets when doing quals. Everyone shoots above the mim average and I would like to raise it to 85% and when they meet that, to 90% with a goal of getting to 95%. But admin gets in the way.

Most gun fights happen at 7 feet and last about that many seconds. We tend to train more for the closer ranges with the handgun but still work at distance. We also train to shoot until the threat is stopped one way or the other. This could be 2 rounds or everything we have on our belt.

I also inst patrol rifle. We issue a AR carbine, not quite a M-4. The guys and gals shoots these very well, as there is little recoil and the plateform tends to send bullets where the sights are. If we know we are going to a gun fight then the patrol rifle is deployed. 2 quick hits center com normally stops most threats. If this doesn't work then we start working on hitting other parts of the human body until the threat is stopped.

While most levers guns do have the power to stop threats quickly, they tend to be too slow for follow up shots. Most people would pull the stock out of the shoulder to the work the lever, sight picture would be lost anyways vise quick follow up shots with a rifle where the sights only move a little bit if any.

Most houses will keep a 223 bullet from leaving the stucture, where as they won't with 30-30, 308 or '06.

 

[HB]

Why would a cop pick a lever action over an AR-15(That's proven itself to be reliable)? Sure, he might be able to get his job done with a lever action, but if it's life or death, don't you want every possibly advantage you can get?

Yes, but every cop car is getting in gunfights with badguys wearing body armor and carrying automatic weapons....

The biggest reason is $$$..... We pay for that stuff and more likely than not, the gun will sit in a trunk for it's entire existence except the 1 or 2 times a year it is used during quals. If the lever gun leaves you undergunned, wait for SWAT. It seems that policy now is that every officer has to have the tools and skills of a tac team, but only has them practice once or twice a year

The majority of police shootings are with guys that aren't going back to prison or freak at a traffic stop. More rounds on tap generally means more shots fired too. After DA revolvers were fased out for autos, there was a more towards DAO auto because cops were simply letting too many rounds fly.

I think the shotgun is the perfect cop backup for most situations but it has fallen out of favor because it's not tacticool and it's rough on smaller framed people recoil-wise. STL City Police supposedly uses Beretta carbines, most suburbs have shotguns and a few have AR's and MP5's

HB

 

[ArmedBear]

more likely than not, the gun will sit in a trunk for it's entire existence except the 1 or 2 times a year it is used during quals.

Not true.

Our range rents time to LE agencies. They come and play with AR's in full auto. A couple of DHS guys were damn near giggling as they sprayed magazines full of ammo.

Your tax dollars at work.

Oh, and our college cops have an M4 and an 870 in every car, between the seats.

P-32: Do you ever do paintball with them? The few paintball battles I've been involved in taught me more about shooting while under fire than all the range time I've ever racked up.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Cops should not be armed with anything the public can not buy.

Last time I checked, AR-15s are available to the public.

The biggest reason is $$$..

A lever gun would still not be the best coice, as an SKS or WASR-10 could still be had cheaper than a lever gun.

After DA revolvers were fased out for autos, there was a more towards DAO auto because cops were simply letting too many rounds fly.

But the percentage of round on target increased, according to Massad Ayoob.

 

[ArmedBear]

California's cops, at least some of them, get post-86 select-fire AR's that are not available to the public anywhere in the US.

Furthermore, they get high-cap magazines and semauto detachable mag AR's that we can't buy in California, at all.

If these guns are "just for killing lots of people", "are for our soldiers abroad, not people in our cities", and "have no legitimate defensive applications", then I can't see why the cops don't need 'em, either.

 

[Fig]

This is my first post.

As an officer of 10 years, a lever rifle would be pretty silly. Just thinking if I missed the first time and had to cycle a round with the lever is just insane to me. With an AR, I could lay down cover fire if need be, with a lever rifle that is not going to happen. Oh and carrying spare ammo would be much more simple with an AR.

But, what it really comes down to is, will your dept let you have what rifle/round you want to carry and what is your preference.

 

[TAB]

But, what it really comes down to is, will your dept let you have what rifle/round you want to carry and what is your preference

actually, what it really comes down to is.. Its OUR money, you should have the rifle that WE want you to have. Most LEOs tend to forget who signs thier check( generalization based on my exp with LEOs)

 

[ArmedBear]

In California, many LEO's seem to have forgotten who signs their checks. The CHP seems pretty good, still. Others, not so much. It depends on the individual, of course, but all around, it seems that city cops have some issues.

In Idaho, my experience has been quite the opposite, as in, extremely positive, and that has included personal contacts with State Police, Boise Police, and Idaho Fish and Game. They're still called "peace officers" too, from what I have heard.

Anyway, I do think that a fighting carbine is only valuable if someone is specifically trained to use it under real-world conditions. It's wrong to send anyone into a deadly situation for which he's not trained. It's wrong to give a cop an AR and say, "All right, go do SWAT's job all by yourself when we tell you (try not to get killed, okay?), in between writing speeding tickets and helping lost kids find their parents. Sorry, but we haven't had time to train you, but with this tacticool rifle, who needs training, right?"

Beat cops have difficult jobs that involve infinite variety -- dealing with the law-abiding general public in between violent felons and everyone in between isn't easy. I hope that they're not just being given AR's as lucky charms, and sent into situations that should be handled differently.

Reality: if you need an AR to handle a situation, you'd better have some serious training for that situation, too, not just a few range sessions.

 

[Fig]

Dear Tab, where ever you work is paid by state employee's money as well. It all comes around. I hear that old line way too much and it is old.

 

[ArmedBear]

where ever you work is paid by state employee's money as well. It all comes around. I hear that old line way too much and it is old.

Uh, state employees' money IF they CHOOSE to spend it there.

There's a difference between being paid from tax dollars, which are taken involuntarily, and competing in the marketplace for money that state employees might choose to spend.

And I say that as someone who has worked for the state.

If it's getting old, it's you who needs to check yourself, not the taxpayer working in the private sector.

 

[Fig]

Armed bear, My dept requires officer to go to through the state rilfe course. To me that is not enough and I'll agree with you. I have military experience, but most officers do not.

Sorry to state that, the City manager's name is on my pay check.

 

[TAB]

Dear Tab, where ever you work is paid by state employee's money as well. It all comes around. I hear that old line way too much and it is old.

I think you just proved my point for me.

 

[Fig]

Armed Bear this discussion is getting pretty silly. I will stop posting on this thread.

Have a good day, I do respect you. I am sorry if I offended you or anyone on this thread.

 

[Shawnee]

I guess I'm the heretic of the crowd but I think many, if not most, of today's police tactics need to be revised bigtime.

"Cover fire", "suppression fire", shootouts, police precipitating shootouts, police carrying semi-autos while at lunch in McDonald's, police emptying their 9mms at moving vehicles and all the rest of that tacti-cool police horsexxxx that constantly endangers We, the People and kills some of us with alarming regularity needs to be left behind in the 19th century with the OK Corral where it belongs.

Real life example... Dayton last Spring.

Cops are onto a bad actor drug dealer and tailed him 24/7 for 2 months. They knew everywhere he conducted business. They knew everywhere he ate a burger. They knew he lived with his girlfriend and her four little kids. They knew he kept guns there. They knew she and her kids were not involved with the drug business. So they deliberately try to arrest him at 1am at the girlfriend's home with her kids present and end up blowing the woman away as she is holding her toddler and trying to get the hxxx out of the way. The toddler was slightly wounded too.

Nothing was done to the cops but they are going to "review their policies." And of course the taxpayers are going to pay a few million dollars to the woman's family. Had I been in charge everyone from the Chief to the janitor would have been hanging on the Public Square before daylight.


Another Dayton example from last Spring...

Teenage girl accepts a ride home with an older teen boy. He is a small-time druggie. She is sitting in the back seat. Cop pulls him over and approaches the car from the rear. As the cop comes alongside the teen guns it and takes off. Cop empties his pistol at the fleeing car and kills the girl. So-called "internal investigation" says the cop was justified and blameless in the death of the girl. Taxpayers pay again. Pure, 24K Bullxxxx. Entire Dayton police force should be in GITMO.

Before I would approve of arming local police forces with ARs I would approve stripping them of all lethal weapons so they would have to figure out a way to do their job without spraying the Public and community with lead, or die. More likely I would probably have them issued firearms in special circumstances for a specific arrest with the requirement to turn them back in after the arrest.

A couple old time San Antonio cops assured me they would rather face some knucklehead who was armed with an AR than someone armed with a 30/30 because the guy with the 30/30 might well be the kind of guy who makes his shots count.

End of soapbox.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The biggest reason is $$$..... We pay for that stuff and more likely than not, the gun will sit in a trunk for it's entire existence except the 1 or 2 times a year it is used during quals.

I think that's not a universal.

As I understand it, a lot of departments don't issue patrol carbines, but allow officers to carry privately purchased weapons (I think at least one poster in the thread who's a current or former LEO mentioned his dept. took this approach). Others (including LAPD after North Hollywood) got surplus rifles from the US military, which have already been paid for.

Either way, that's pretty minimal cost to the tax payer, though other agencies and departments do buy and issue new rifles (again, as I understand it).

 

[kcmarine]

The North Hollywood shootout mostly proved the LAPD was completely unprepared for that type of action.

Thank you.

 

[ArmedBear]

A couple old time San Antonio cops assured me they would rather face some knucklehead who was armed with an AR than someone armed with a 30/30 because the guy with the 30/30 might well be the kind of guy who makes his shots count.

As I said to a friend regarding a HD shotgun...

A pump gun with a shroud and a light on it says, "I'm tacticool!"

A side-by-side coach gun says, "I'm a crazy redneck and I WILL kill you."

 

[benEzra]

If the lever gun leaves you undergunned, wait for SWAT.

After Columbine, the general consensus was that waiting for SWAT in an active-shooter situation only gets more innocent people killed.

Anyway, I do think that a fighting carbine is only valuable if someone is specifically trained to use it under real-world conditions. It's wrong to send anyone into a deadly situation for which he's not trained. It's wrong to give a cop an AR and say, "All right, go do SWAT's job all by yourself when we tell you (try not to get killed, okay?), in between writing speeding tickets and helping lost kids find their parents. Sorry, but we haven't had time to train you, but with this tacticool rifle, who needs training, right?"

A rifle is much easier to operate effectively under stress than a handgun, IMO. You don't need SWAT training to shoot a rifle better than a handgun.

 

[ArmedBear]

You don't need SWAT training to shoot a rifle better than a handgun.

Agreed.

However, you can use some of that kind of training to avoid getting killed while shooting the rifle. By definition, situations that call for a carbine are combat situations, and quite different from an armed arrest that calls for a pistol, or a violent confrontation where a shotgun is the weapon of choice.