Levers For the Cops

[litman252]

I'm not sure what to add but will throw in my $.0064 anyway.

I come from a small town of approx. 4K and live in a city of around 30K now. I work in an area that most city's are 45K+ and not far from 1/2 Mill people.

I'm sure some should have the M4'gry, some should have a 30-30 and many do just fine with a 12ga, with correct ammo.

I'd like to think it should be up to the cop, I know, I know, don't bother posting about ammo capatability and all that, it's not perfect.

If it was up to me I'd have a compact carbine w/ the same mags as my sidearm with several mags on an additional belt/vest close by. After that, or if time allowed I'd like a .308ish bolt that was good and accurate.

To each there own, what they are confident, and competent with that is acceptiable to all is ideal, just don't know if it exists.

Best,
Tony

 

[earlthegoat2]

Now, now, sensible questions like that have no room here.

I suppose its because the learning curve with an AR is faster. There is also an intimidation factor I suppose. Black guns are the military and police guns. Lever guns arent tactical enough.

Kind of reminds me when people come into my store asking about bear guns for hunting other species in bear country. I tell them they dont need the 500 SW Mag for 1000+ dollars. What they need is a 45-70 Lever gun for 500 bucks. Then they have a bear gun and any other critter gun in one.

Why would I want one of those? they say.

 

[C-grunt]

Here is The Bottom Line, Gentlemen...

It is NOT OK for our cops to gun down innocent or non-threatening citizens. Not even ONE.

NO excuses. Not even ONE.

There are NO "Ooopsies". Not even ONE.

Ever.

You are correct and if thats happening its something beyond anything you can blame on training or policy. Thats an individual decision there. If blatantly bad shootings are being covered up, you need to talk to your senator or someone about it.

But then again its completely unacceptable for ONE legally armed citizen to gun down an innocent person too. Should we start changing laws and policies on handing out CCW permits because of a few bad incidents?

Sounds very much like the Brady Campaign around here...........

 

[Mauserguy]

Wow, this thread got borderline nasty in places. I certainly never wanted to anybody to insinuate that cops shoot innocent people. Out here, the LAPD can't hit anybody, innocent or guilty. At any rate...

I figured that the discussion would revolve around reloading, reliability etc. I can see that an AR is more ergonomic, and is a better military arm, but I'm not convinced that it is the best all around police rifle. Consider this comparison:

Marlin 1894:
1. Remove from trunk.
2. Work lever.
3. Aim.
4. Fire.
5. Work lever.

AR:
1. Remove from trunk.
2. Remove scope caps.
3. Insert magazine.
4. Remove Magazine, insert right side up.
5. Reinsert magazine after it drops out, having not locked into place.
6. Charge chamber.
7. Aim.
8. Replace battery in red-dot scope.
9. Aim.
10. Flip off safety.
11. Aim.
12. Slap forward assist to fully chamber the round.
13. Aim.
14. Fire.
15. Dissasemble rifle to clear jam.
16. Ressemble rifle.
17. Get Remmington 12 Guage.

Cheers,
Mauserguy

 

[Prince Yamato]

I say you save some money in the town budget by equipping the police with AK-47s. No maintenance or weapons skills required.

 

[Harve Curry]

In re-reading some replies here that are not completely on topic, some are important and go alongside the topic.
From Kbobs post no.72 for example :

"Looks matter.

The opinion of the public matters"

That gets applied to citizens when it comes to the so-called Assault Weapons Bans. We the people can't have arms that look a certain way, and it is police that enforce that injustice upon us.
There has to be a happy medium in firearms and clothing.
The militarization of police in the United States is a recent happening of the last 25 years or so. It's effects are far reaching. One of the things that seperates U.S. from other countries that the U.S. has are laws prohibiting our army from being used against ourselves. Militarzing police is kinda unAmerican to put it politely. So maybe a policeman who wants to use a lever and can qualify with one should be allowed to, no big deal, and congratulations to him/her. Policemen should be able to protect the public and themselves with the small arms available to them within their reach, but appearances do matter in attitude, clothing, and firearms.
But this is all speculation and will never happen because there are to many antis and politians running police departments and educating new recruits..

 

[wheelgunslinger]

That seems reasonable, Harve.

Mauserguy's 17 steps to using an AR will probably ignite a poopstorm of responses, so I just wanted to get my response in before the storm started.

Levers for police? Sure. Browning's BLR has a box mag and can shoot all manner of spitzer type projectiles from it. Pump action rifles for Police? Sure. Why not?

 

[COMPNOR]

Marlin 1894:
1. Remove from trunk.
2. Work lever.
3. Aim.
4. Fire.
5. Work lever.

AR:
1. Remove from trunk.
2. Remove scope caps.
3. Insert magazine.
4. Remove Magazine, insert right side up.
5. Reinsert magazine after it drops out, having not locked into place.
6. Charge chamber.
7. Aim.
8. Replace battery in red-dot scope.
9. Aim.
10. Flip off safety.
11. Aim.
12. Slap forward assist to fully chamber the round.
13. Aim.
14. Fire.
15. Dissasemble rifle to clear jam.
16. Ressemble rifle.
17. Get Remmington 12 Guage.

This sums up my response nicely:

 

[Shawnee]

"The militarization of police in the United States is a recent happening of the last 25 years or so.....Militarzing police is kinda unAmerican to put it politely."


Need we politely mention.... Waco... and Ruby Ridge ?

How about Kent State ?

 

[rc109a]

Shawnee: not sure what your post has to do with lever vice Ar discussion. If it is about military arms being used for police work, then almsot all firearms could fall into that catagory at one point in history.

 

[Barker45]

LEO here. We use COLT ARs (m4s) at work but I keep a 30-30 Marlin in my POV. Don't PooPoo the lever-gun! Other than being in a combat zone OCONUS or a Hollywood-like shootout, the lever will do just fine and the 30-30 packs a punch. My marlin is light, handy, slick as snail poo, and I love it! Oh yeah, I hunt with it too. I added some excellent XS sights and a leather butt-cuff and called it good. If I could only have 1 rifle it would be my marlin (redneck assault rifle).

I also have a beautiful Colt AR carbine in my safe for zombie but I haven't seen any lately.

 

[HorseSoldier]

Need we politely mention.... Waco... and Ruby Ridge ?

How about Kent State ?

Don't believe any of those involved beat cops armed with any sort of rifle (or no rifle at all), so not sure how it's relevant to the topic at hand. Insofar as we live in a nation where bad guys have access to high capacity, semi-automatic rifles, denying police the tools to deal with the potential threats they may encounter -- not just to themselves, but to the public -- because it produces a psychological distress for some people seems rather inappropriate. (And is a curiously hoplophobic sentiment for gun owners . . .)

I would personally feel differently if someone could point out where assault rifle toting patrolmen were roughing up the populace, involved in unjustified shootings with their patrol carbines. All I've seen in this thread as far as facts are concerned is the fact that only a small fraction of officers seem to be armed with patrol carbines of any sort at all.

 

[scotjute]

Lever-guns would work for police. They would provide a longer range and more powerful round for those situations that called for more than a pistol or shotgun. I see nothing wrong with procurring/using/issuing them as they would serve the purpose. Wouldn't feel like police were undergunned for most situations if they had them. Its what I have at the house. However I'm not expecting a shoot-out with crazed drug lords either.

That said, if I was in charge of a police dept. and could afford it, I'd want my guys to have the best, and the AR-15 type rifle would seem to be the best all-round choice for increased range, more powerful round (but not too powerful), and provide the same fire power as their semi-auto pistols. It just seems logical for police depts. to issue them when they can.

 

[goon]

Shawnee:

Holy cow! Time to listen to some Prozac, man.

I've thought that myself a time or two but not in this case.
He makes some valid points about the militarization of some police agencies.

Lever actions for cops? Why not?
What, exactly, is your average cop shooting at that won't be stopped by a few well placed 170 grain bullets? Is he really planning to miss 29 times before he finally makes a hit count?
And is he really planning to lay cover fire on a suspect? Because as I remember it, cover fire is fire that is pretty much not intended to hit the enemy. You may hit him by accident with it, but its primary function is to reduce his ability to shoot at you. A decent enough idea for a squad of guys who've had the bad luck to stumble head-first into an ambush but probably NOT the best tactic for a cop (or a homeowner for that matter).
I'd even argue that in a semi-rural or rural area where there is the chance of having to stop a large animal, the lever action 30-30 would be a better choice than a standard AR just because of the cartridges they fire.

 

[GRIZ22]

A lot of responses indicate police should not be armed with the EBRs that we want. You're not going to get many fencesitters to our side by insisting citizens should have better armed than the police.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

Marlin 1894:
1. Remove from trunk.
2. Work lever.
3. Aim.
4. Fire.
5. Work lever.

AR:
1. Remove from trunk.
2. Remove scope caps.
3. Insert magazine.
4. Remove Magazine, insert right side up.
5. Reinsert magazine after it drops out, having not locked into place.
6. Charge chamber.
7. Aim.
8. Replace battery in red-dot scope.
9. Aim.
10. Flip off safety.
11. Aim.
12. Slap forward assist to fully chamber the round.
13. Aim.
14. Fire.
15. Dissasemble rifle to clear jam.
16. Ressemble rifle.
17. Get Remmington 12 Guage.

So if I try to use an AR-15, I will instantly become incompetent?

They would provide a longer range and more powerful round

Which can also be had in a semi-auto, specifically in the AR platform, with such cartridges as the .50 beowolf or 6.5 grendel.

What, exactly, is your average cop shooting at that won't be stopped by a few well placed 170 grain bullets? Is he really planning to miss 29 times before he finally makes a hit count?
And is he really planning to lay cover fire on a suspect?

But if the target is shooting back, a cop's life may depend on his ability to get off a lot of rounds in a short period of time.
And as for the cover fire: If someone starts shooting at you, wouldn't the ability to lay down cover fire be nice?

A lot of responses indicate police should not be armed with the EBRs that we want.

Cops should be allowed to have them for the same reason ordinary, law-abiding people are:because criminals will have them regardless of the law, allowing them doesn't increase crime, and criminals better armed than the general population means more crime.

 

[nzo012]

For those who wonder why someone can shoot 60 or 70 rounds as return fire and miss most, if not all of them...imagine this, you are at the shooting range the whistle is blown to cease fire, you walk down to the hot end of the range where the targets are hanging. You have your gun of choice and have trained with it for years. You have a silver pie tin back at the shooters line you have to hit. Now you face the shooter/shooters and the whistle blows for them to open fire. You may have almost no cover at all. See how many times you hit the pie tin.

It's like being trapped in a room that that no one knows you're there and people are shooting through the walls of the room as target practice. You know they are doing their best to hit you and make you fall dead. That adds a little pressure to your aim. Your brain goes from aim...aim...aim to this could be the last smell, I smell, the last sight, I see and the last thing I hear.

There are many reasons the short CAR rifles are used by LE. They transition well with the basics of semi auto pistols as far as loading and kinda similar handling. Training in tactical movements usually puts the contact team members in a huddle very close to each other in a "Ready Gun" posture. This would be more difficult with a longer barreled .30.30 and tactical reloading would be nonexistent. Assault team members have their eye as close to the rear sight as possible, within 2 to 3 inches away and that is the porthole they look through as they move. The M16/AR15's buffer allows the weapon to be fired with your eye that close to the sight; a .30.30 or .357 Mag or .45 long colt, .44 Mag rifle would not be user friendly in that regard.

Now, you're about to say I meant the everyday patrol cop not specialized S.W.A.T. members. In reality, everyday patrol cops across the nation are being trained to deal with what they call an "Active Shooter" as in the incidents that happen at Columbine High, Virginia Tech, Omaha Ne. Shopping Mall and we could go on and on. The first people to face the heavily armed shooters on a random killing spree is the everyday cop who was in the school parking lot working an accident when the shooting started inside the school. So, it's not outlaw biker clans or groups of renegades terrorizing a friendly town, it is more likely to be a 18 year old who's mixed up and thinks he will be a famous person if he does the unthinkable or a veteran how is suffering from post traumatic stress. History has shown us that they that they are well armed with good weapons and well practiced with them.

I didn't mean to drag on like this, but I just tried to clarify some facts that needed it.

 

[Coronach]

The rationale for the AR for patrol rifles is pretty straightforward:

1. There is a need for rifles in patrol cars. We expect the police to respond rapidly and effectively to incidents like Virginia Tech, Columbine and, when it happens here, Beslan, with swift and decisive action. We've seen what "wait for SWAT" gets you- a lot of dead children. You need the tools to deal with it.

2. Magazine capacity. While having more rounds is no substitute for accuracy, if you're going into a takeover scenario, would you rather have 5 in the tube, or 30 in the mag? Would you then rather reload the tube one at a time, or slap in another magazine of 30?

3. Economy. Fed.gov will practically give you an M16A1, vs. paying for a lever action.

4. Familiarity. Many cops are ex .mil, and they know how to work an M16.

5. Standardization. Just like the Remington 870 was the standard patrol shotgun, the m16/m4/ar pattern rifle is turning into the standard patrol rifle.

6. Ballistics. The .223 round offers good performance in the engagement envelope of the patrol officer, without overpenetration.

7. Flexibility. You can mandate a bare-bones iron-sight rifle/carbine, or you can tacticool it up, depending on need.

8. Ease of use. The gun is a sweetheart to shoot, and is very accurate. This leads to better performance on the part of a rifle-armed officer, assuming adequate training.

Would I feel poorly armed with a Marlin lever action? Nope. Would I prefer it to an M16-pattern rifle? Nope.

BTW, most of the patrol rifles you see are semi-auto. There's not much use for full-auto on patrol. And, I firmly agree that the patrol rifleman MUST be well trained.

Mike

 

[Shawnee]

Hi "NZO..."...

"The first people to face the heavily armed shooters on a random killing spree is the everyday cop who was in the school parking lot working an accident when the shooting started inside the school. "


With this statement of current fact you have underscored one of my primary points, and I thank you.

It is that kind of Cowboy mentality - expecting the "everyday cop" to stage a one-man Pickett's Charge - that I have spoken of as needing to change and brought into at least the 20th century. It's an example of a situation that desperately needs to be re-thought. And it will have to be re-0thought by people who have not been brainwashed by the current LEO Wyatt Earp culture because, without meaning any insult whatsoever, our LEO culture is too deeply entrenched in the 19th century and their Alvin York self-image to correct themselves.

 

[benEzra]

It is that kind of Cowboy mentality - expecting the "everyday cop" to stage a one-man Pickett's Charge - that I have spoken of as needing to change and brought into at least the 20th century. It's an example of a situation that desperately needs to be re-thought. And it will have to be re-0thought by people who have not been brainwashed by the current LEO Wyatt Earp culture because, without meaning any insult whatsoever, our LEO culture is too deeply entrenched in the 19th century and their Alvin York self-image to correct themselves.

IMO, the present, more proactive mindset is a reaction against the mindset that gave the Columbine killers free reign--and that was NOT a Wyatt Earp/Alvin York mentality. It was a "that's above my pay grade" mentality, circle the wagons and wait for SWAT, giving the killers 30 minutes to do as they wished with their unarmed teenage victims. In my opinion, the pendulum swung too far in recent years toward "officer safety at all costs" instead of protecting innocent victims from the criminally violent, and I think it is a good thing that the pendulum is swinging back the other way.

Having the first 2 or 4 officers on-scene go confront a murderer ASAP with equipment they have on hand is not an atavistic Wild West throwback, but rather an outgrowth of the observation that sitting back and waiting for SWAT doesn't protect those you are sworn to protect.

Most active shooters in recent years have given up and killed themselves as soon as they encountered any significant opposition; generally speaking, the sooner they are confronted, the better. The Luby's cafeteria murderer shot himself as soon as police finally started shooting back; ditto for the VT loser and many others. And the Trolley Square mall shooter's killings were halted by A SINGLE OFFICER with a compact handgun, who pinned the shooter down until SWAT could arrive and take him out.

 

[Shawnee]

"And the Trolley Square mall shooter's killings were halted by A SINGLE OFFICER with a compact handgun, who pinned the shooter down until SWAT could arrive and take him out."

Which underscores the serious doubt that thirty M16s and the expenditure of 2000 cartridges in 30 seconds is either necessary or desireable.

One cop says every cop in the nation needs to armed/trained to be Rambo on Steroids so an entire squadron of Robocops can be unleashed at a moment's notice and the next cop says only one cop with a Model 10 is all that's needed to "engage".

That's the LEO "forked tongue" that inflates LEO budgets, LEO power, LEO abuse of the Public and perpetuates the failure of American Law Enforcement.

And please - before anyone says there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution to police work - stop and remember that LEOs all have the same solution to every problem - "Give us more firepower, more authority, more budget, and more black T-shirts, ie. make us more Militaristic (read Gestapo-istic).

It never fails.

 

[JImbothefiveth]

It is that kind of Cowboy mentality

When there's a shooter on a rampage, a lone cop being able to stop him may be matter of life and death for whoever's getting shot at.

Which underscores the serious doubt that M16s are needed

But what if the shooter had been better-trained, and didn't let the cop pin him down with a handgun?

 

[nzo012]

I had to just sit here a moment and think before I replied to Shawnee's comment. I almost just let it go and wrote it off to someone just wanting to start a fight. I don't know what your issues are with authority and I really don't care. You obviously have never been in a situation that requires you to act to preserve life because your responses are absurd.

I have witnessed some of the bravest men of 18 + years old totally disregard their own safety to accomplish incredible acts of heroism. Some have paid for it with lost limbs, lost looks and lost lives. To consider them as Rambos! and Wyatte Earps is absolutely horrendous! To consider a LEO that takes action against a school shooter a Sgt. York is an utter insult!

The difference between them and you is that they are scared to death but they act out of selflessness and I assume by reading your post you would recommend running and hiding.

I don't mean to insult anyone, but you hit a nerve! The purpose of these forms is to share information and enjoy each others knowledge, not to take amateur bashes at topics where professionals fear to tread. I have some experience in how these things are organized and lead, I would be glad to share that, but I will not listen to someone who is posting such negative trash about any peacekeeping force.

When I made reference to the Officer in the school lot taking action, I was referring to someone in general who finds himself in a situation they didn't foresee and having to react through their training and experience even if that is not their specialized field.

 

[benEzra]

Which underscores the serious doubt that thirty M16s and the expenditure of 2000 cartridges in 30 seconds is either necessary or desireable.

And that relates to an officer having one NON-automatic civilian AR-15 in the trunk, how?

Do you really think that issuing a carbine to an officer instead of a handgun would make him/her forget what sights/optics are made for, or what the purpose of a rifle is?

One cop says every cop in the nation needs to armed/trained to be Rambo on Steroids so an entire squadron of Robocops can be unleashed at a moment's notice and the next cop says only one cop with a Model 10 is all that's needed to "engage".

I'm not a cop; I'm a technical writer in the aviation industry. I was merely pointing out that sitting idly by when some nutjob decides to go murder as many people as possible before the police show up is NOT, in fact, a helpful response, one that was justifiably excoriated after Columbine, and that ANY countervailing force in an active-shooter situation (even a single cop with a low-capacity handgun) is better than none. If that officer had a carbine, so much the better.

That's the LEO "forked tongue" that inflates LEO budgets, LEO power, LEO abuse of the Public and perpetuates the failure of American Law Enforcement.

Again, I am not a LEO. But the job of LEO's is not to sit idly by for 30 minutes as innocent teenagers get shot, and then cuff and stuff the shell-shocked survivors when they come out a la Columbine. It is to GO AFTER AND STOP THE KILLER.

And please - before anyone says there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution to police work - stop and remember that LEOs all have the same solution to every problem - "Give us more firepower, more authority, more budget, and more black T-shirts, ie. make us more Militaristic (read Gestapo-istic).

And having a civilian AR-15 in the trunk instead of a pump shotgun (or a lever gun, FWIW) has absolutely nothing to do with that mentality.

If you look around the nation, you'll find that the most authoritarian, jackbooted departments are also some of most fearful of AR-15's in non-SWAT hands. Because those departments are the ones who think that centerfire .22's with handgrips that stick out are so dangerous and difficult to shoot that only the most highly trained Jedi ninjas can safely use them.

 

[Harve Curry]

What's a EBR??

QUOTE Shawnee: "And please - before anyone says there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution to police work - stop and remember that LEOs all have the same solution to every problem - "Give us more firepower, more authority, more budget, and more black T-shirts, ie. make us more Militaristic (read Gestapo-istic)."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That's not the rank and file on the street policeman. That is the political career run for office sheriffs, city police chiefs, get appointed again heads of FBI, ATF, leo bueracrats, and so on..