jerkface11
Member
Or you could use the actual term instead of coming up with your own jargon. You might as well be calling manual safeties flibbertyjibbets.
Manual safetys on semi pistols - yes or no?
- Thread starter Hokkmike
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Nom de Forum
Member
I think you mean the " The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy".
Yes, much of it is tongue in cheek. Some of it is deliberately provocative to stimulate debate. I'll admit I have had static with my message, but I have sent out a strong, detailed, and logical message.I think you may be right that most users of DAOs don't want a manual safety.
I certainly don't. I think even the venerable 1911 would be improved with the replacement of the sear blocking thumb safety with a sear blocking automatic safety. I'll bet it could be done and still maintain an acceptable trigger break for defensive shooting.
Thank you for starting the thread. It has been fun and informative.
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danez71
Member
That type of safety requires you to reach further out than necessary since it stick out further than the trigger face. If the shooter doesn't do that (reach out far enough) they will hit the side of the trigger safety and fumble the initial contact of the finger to trigger (not fumble as in dropping the gun).
Imagine if your shoes has a spring loaded peg that came out the bottom of the sole. If you didn't left your leg higher than needed with-out the peg, the peg would drag, and you would fumble in stepping motion.
This does happen to people and it has been posted before.
Its an unneeded alteration of motion which does not enhance performance and only potentially a hindrance to performance.
Therefore, by your criteria, it is an unneeded device and should be eliminated.
danez71
Member
Ya know..... I re-read some of your earlier posts in this thread. And for the most part, you are pretty much in the middle but do lean toward not having a thumb safety, which is expected because that's your preference.
But this "manual firing inhibitor" stuff is ridiculous.
This thread would be 1/2 as many pages and have stayed on topic if you hadn't decided that everyone else needed to be re-educated by you in order to promote your own particular vocabulary.
Not only ridiculous, but outright childish.
"TestPilot," I and I'm sure others would take you much more seriously without such.
A chair is called a chair because that's what it was named. The safety on a gun was named "Safety", regardless or your functionality interpretation.
On the other hand "childish" enjoys attention, be it ridicule or otherwise... if that be the case, carry on.
HisStigness
Member
I have been seeing a lot of people saying DOA lately. Last time I checked DOA stood for Dead On Arrival not Double Only Action it should be DAO. Let's correct this before people get confused, and quit the petty fighting about gun part names, lest an onlooker think we are a bunch of idiots.
Mike1234567
member
This thread reminds me of my marriage. It wasn't so much that she was always right but moreso that I was always wrong... or was it moreso that she was always right? Ehh... that still confuses me. The point is I couldn't stay away from that woman any more than I can keep from following this thread. It's self-inflicted pain, I suppose. Oh well... at least I was smart enough to divorce that other pain. And the safety on this pistol is permanently engaged. 
Gosh man... you're under the impression that can you somehow put the genie back in the bottle merely by wishing it so?
Nooooo..... it's just not that simple.
The only force that strong in this realm is the intervention of the Gods (aka Moderators).
As for me, with the posting count well over 200 here - I've had my fun. It's off to the coast for a week of Christmas cheer now.
Y'all enjoy yourselves!
Quite possibly the best contribution to this thread!!This thread reminds me of my marriage. It wasn't so much that she was always right but moreso that I was always wrong... or was it moreso that she was always right? Ehh... that still confuses me. The point is I couldn't stay away from that woman any more than I can keep from following this thread. It's self-inflicted pain, I suppose. Oh well... at least I was smart enough to divorce that other pain. And the safety on this pistol is permanently engaged.
Nom de Forum
Member
Thank you. You are correct, I know better and just got sloppy. I am also using DAO to encompass so called "safe actions" for sake of simplicity. I edit my post.
Nom de Forum
Member
I hope everyone who has a Glock and/or an XD will pull it out, unload, and attempt to recreate the situation described above and post their experiences. I tried and could not. Even when I started with very firm pressure on the very edge of the trigger as soon as I started to slide my finger to the correct position of end of the finger pad over center of the trigger the trigger safety did not stop the motion and disengaged. The only way I could create a situation where the trigger safety prevented me from pulling the trigger was to simulate having to short of trigger finger for the pistols length of pull. If your finger is to short for correctly positioning the pad of your finger on a trigger because of the length of pull of any firearm you should find something else to shoot.
Please, please, please provide the thread locations where people have reported experiencing the situation you describe!!!
Btw, I have personally seen people fail to deactivate the grip safeties on their 1911s and fail to fire. Some people even pin these to permanently disengage them. JMB didn’t think it was necessary until the Army insisted it was. I have never seen an adult fail to disengage a trigger safety. If I did I would recommend a pistol with a shorter length of pull.
You have erroneously applied my “criteria”. The trigger safety function on Glocks and XDs perfectly conforms to my previously stated beliefs.
Nom de Forum
Member
Merry Christmas! I used to live in Bend and know how enjoyable it is to visit the Oregon coast. Have a great time.Gosh man... you're under the impression that can you somehow put the genie back in the bottle merely by wishing it so?
Nooooo..... it's just not that simple.
The only force that strong in this realm is the intervention of the Gods (aka Moderators).
As for me, with the posting count well over 200 here - I've had my fun. It's off to the coast for a week of Christmas cheer now.
Y'all enjoy yourselves!
Nom de Forum
Member
This thread reminds me of my marriage. It wasn't so much that she was always right but moreso that I was always wrong... or was it moreso that she was always right? Ehh... that still confuses me. The point is I couldn't stay away from that woman any more than I can keep from following this thread. It's self-inflicted pain, I suppose. Oh well... at least I was smart enough to divorce that other pain. And the safety on this pistol is permanently engaged.
Thats funny!
For me this thread is providing great entertainment while I am sick at home. I am annoyed with being away from work and I am sure some of that annoyance is being expressed in my posts. I'll try to not let it get out of hand. I am really enjoying being challenged to think and logically express my opinion. Some of the digs directed at me are really humorous. I hope others feel the same about the digs directed at them.
danez71
Member
It seems that you just described one situation right here in this thread. Thanks. That made it easier. Read on.
That needless feature creates a situation of a needlessly longer trigger pull reach/trigger pull. It adds nothing to "performance" as you say.
No I haven't. It adds NO performance and only hindrance and thus should be eliminated by your criteria of, paraphrasing, no performance gain and only possible hindrance.
Nom de Forum
Member
Danez71,
Your comments are not in anyway convincing to me and neither are mine to you. I don't think anything more can be written to change that. You can have the last words on this topic. Have fun deciding on and using your best bang for the buck bolt action rifle. Merry Christmas.
danez71
Member
In all honesty, I think there are pros and cans to either and in reality, its a matter of risk management.
Everything has trade offs. As such, I think its doing a dis-service to speak in terms of absolutes and much more constructive to discuss the differences and pro and cons so a user can make an informed decision for themselves rather than from biased opinions.
Personally, I don't like the glock trigger dingle for the reason I described. Yes, I do have short fingers. For a gun with-out a thumb safety, I think the M&P has a better solution or just a grip style safety is better. But again, there are trade offs and no absolutes; those types aren't with-out cons either.
I hope you feel better soon and I do wish you, and everyone else, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year as well.
Old Dog
Member
Gosh, lots of fun stuff 'splained while I spent sixteen hours at work ... I noted in NdF's response to one of my posts that he said
In no way, shape or form have I come out against or for manual safeties; rather, I tried to hoist the B.S. flag on some of the hyperbole and the more extreme statements (mostly presented as statements of fact by persons whose credentials are not known). And yes, along the way, I noted Video Game Jockey, er, "Test Pilot's" penchant for weird use of the English language ...
Ultimately, though, this thread doesn't stand on its own as being in any way helpful to someone who is seeking knowledge on the topic. Too many absolutist statements, inventing reasons to have or not to have manual safeties, and then, the stupidest part, the dude who obscures everything by insisting on using a lengthy, unwieldy phrase instead of the actual term used for over a hundred years by everyone in the firearms community ... and in the original post. ... Sheesh.
Though of value as holiday entertainment, this thread should perhaps be deleted because it can't possibly help anyone learn the value of having a pistol with a manual safety ... or without.
Too many people here whose egos (there, I used the word myself) have them continuing to insist that their chosen platform is superior.
Kinda wondering what was meant by all that; in no way was I attributing my employer's choice of pistol as "misfortune," nor have I indicated that I have been having difficulty training myself or my officers to keep our fingers out of the trigger guard, and by the way, whose ego were you referring to?
In no way, shape or form have I come out against or for manual safeties; rather, I tried to hoist the B.S. flag on some of the hyperbole and the more extreme statements (mostly presented as statements of fact by persons whose credentials are not known). And yes, along the way, I noted Video Game Jockey, er, "Test Pilot's" penchant for weird use of the English language ...
Ultimately, though, this thread doesn't stand on its own as being in any way helpful to someone who is seeking knowledge on the topic. Too many absolutist statements, inventing reasons to have or not to have manual safeties, and then, the stupidest part, the dude who obscures everything by insisting on using a lengthy, unwieldy phrase instead of the actual term used for over a hundred years by everyone in the firearms community ... and in the original post. ... Sheesh.
Though of value as holiday entertainment, this thread should perhaps be deleted because it can't possibly help anyone learn the value of having a pistol with a manual safety ... or without.
Too many people here whose egos (there, I used the word myself) have them continuing to insist that their chosen platform is superior.
Nom de Forum
Member
Old Dog the expression of sympathy was sincere. It seemed to me you thought that your employer unfortunately made a poor choice. The comment about ego was a generalization and not personally directed to you or your officers. That being said it often is hard to teach an "old dog" new tricks.
I personally have had to train experienced people do things differently and their egos sometimes created a resistance to acceptance.Yes there has been a great deal of silliness with regard to nomenclature. Something I just ignored until now, and perhaps should have been ignored by everyone to stop feeding the fire.
I disagree that this thread is valueless for knowledge on the topic.
I think you have certainly demonstrated your ego in this thread and contributed no significantly greater amount of knowledge about the topic.
I think with your above post you are not just being an "Old Dog" but a bit of a cranky old dog. Lighten up.
Merry Christmas
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Deaf Smith
Member
I don't have 'em on my DAOs like Glocks, DA/SA autos, and revolvers. I do have 'em on my 1911s and some .22 SA guns. And yes the DA/SA autos like Sigs and S&Ws have a decocker that I don't use as a safety.
Now if the gun has a light short trigger, I strongly suggest a manual safety.
If they have a long mushy heavy trigger, no need for a safety.
Simple as that.
Deaf
Old Dog
Member
Actually, no. I've grown quite fond of the M&P and have decided that for me, it works far better than a Glock or the other imitators. I have, in fact, had to learn many new tricks over the years, from transitioning over and over from 1911s to M9s to 3rd Gen S&Ws to Glocks to H&Ks to M&Ps ... I've got a stack of instructor guides and armorer manuals in a closet, which if removed would allow Imelda Marcos' complete shoe collection to be put in it ...
Yes, I know what it's like to have to retrain experienced people (as well as those who believe they're experienced); a huge challenge in academies is often taking former military (especially those who've made multiple combat deployments) or self-taught gun enthusiasts and teaching them a decidedly non-military deadly force policy, brand-new rules of engagement, how to NOT handle firearms, and when to handle them ...
I try (sometimes even successfully) to check my ego at the front door every time I go to work, but I have found that in striving for the witty riposte, the ultimate comeback, or to sum up a situation like the Jedi Master --- here's an example below, recognize this? -- isn't always the best way to actually provide useful instruction:
Now, I'll give Clint Smith or Pat Rogers a pass if they wanna say weird stuff like that ... but I'll just finish by quoting you again:
Pot, meet kettle ...
Oh, and yeah, hyperbole and unsupported generalizations presented as "fact" does tend to make me cranky ... but I'll feel better after I take a few 1911s, charming anachronisms for sure, to the range this weekend (maybe an SAO SIG w/safety and a few 3rd Gen Smiths, too). Have a great holiday, Nom de Forum.
Billy Shears
Member
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I'll make this thread one of those!
I am an LEO whose department issues Glock 17's; no other firearm is approved for duty carry (except the Glock 19 or 26 for detectives, which have exactly the same dimensions, as far as the trigger is concerned). It hasn't happened often, but this very year, during our yearly qualifications, I had it happen twice. During one phase of the Q course, you have to draw from the retention holster and fire two shots in three seconds until you magazine (loaded with 12 rounds) is empty.
I happen to have short fingers, and even with the proper firing grip, only get the very tip of my finger on the trigger face. During that phase of the Q course, you have to execute your draw and fire your two shots quickly, before the target turns away. In my haste, I twice fumbled that move slightly, and found myself pressing on the side of the trigger so the gun wouldn't fire. I quickly adjusted, and managed to fire my shots anyway, but it still resulted in a fraction of a second's delay that I wouldn't want to experience in a gunfight. And as I said, I don't have the option of switching to another weapon, at least not on duty.
It can happen.
It all goes back to risk management. The risk of having the munual firing inhibitor on the trigger vs. not having one.
Each individual has a different level of risk. While the risk is minimal for people who have medium to large size hand, it would be higher for people with small hands or short fingers. It also happened to me a few times with Glock, depending on the manner I get the index finger into the trigger guard.
It is not much of a risk with M&P, because the M&P trigger device does not consist of a piece that protrude out from the center of the trigger like that of Glock. XD, PPQ, etc., have lower risk because the center piece on the trigger does not stick out as much as that of Glock pistols.
But, if you have that problem often with a Glock, and you admitted that you have short fingers, it is more of a risk issue stemming from an ill fitting gun for your hand size than the pistol itself.
I decided it was not much of a risk for me, because it does not require any decision making or addtional motion on my part to manipulate it, the motion being a part of the trigger pull. Also, M&P40 I use happens to fit my hand well.
However, this issue is quite revealing. Think about it. If such device on a Glock trigger which the manipulation is incorporated with trigger pulling motion and does not require separate decision making can cause problems, there certainly is a risk associated with accidental movement or manipulation failure with the ones that are manipulated by thumb that does requrie separate motion and decision making process.
And, such manipulation failures have been witnessed by well known instructors. Gabriel Suarez is one example, but if you question his creditibility, then I also submit an example of Rob Pincus.
Here is what Rob Pincus stated:
"While I certainly can’t say that every polymer framed, striker fired pistol has performed flawlessly or that every shooter with a single action semi-auto screwed up the actuation of their safety at least once during a two day class, I can certainly say that those things are more likely to happen than not."
https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/ccm-columns/features/can-you-buy-your-way-to-safety/
What he is saying is that people attending his course more likley than not fails to manipulate the thumb lever at least once, although not every shooter with an SAO pistol did.
If a user thinks that risk is worth the benefit, and use a pistol like 1911 or M&P with thumb lever type manual firing inhibitor, then that is fine. However, to claim that the risk does not exists at all is false.
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Billy Shears
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It's called a manual safety. As others have said, let's stick with generally understood terminology. (Gretchen, stop trying to make fetch happen! It's not going to happen! )
On the other hand, I've never had an issue disengaging the thumb safety on my 1911.
Modern striker fired pistols work with no manual safeties. They don't really need one, but that doesn't mean there's no place for one. A single action only auto like the 1911 or Browning Hi Power really should have one. And they (and magazine disconnectors) have proven their usefulness for LEOs during gun grabs by bad guys, by preventing the bad guy from making the weapon fire.
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