Mouse guns

[chaim]

OK, I'd like to get a gun for pocket carry as a backup gun when I'm out of state and CCWing. I can't really afford what I really want in the near future (a Kahr PM9).

I may go with a NAA Guardian in .32ACP, though it would only be about $150 more to get the Kahr so most likely I'll go a little cheaper. If I bought the NAA I'd probably be kicking myself for not pushing to go the extra $150 since $150 isn't that much, even though the NAA is at the absolute top of my possible price range right now (thus the total of the Kahr is "that much" for me right now).

I'm mainly thinking about the Taurus PT22 or a Beretta 21 in .25ACP (the Beretta is about $60 more). I don't want a Taurus v. Beretta thread, that isn't what I'm talking about. The more expensive of these is around $200 less than the NAA and around $350 less than local Kahr prices so mentally it is easier to buy this than the NAA.

I'm requesting good info about the real negatives and advantages of the mouse gun calibers (mainly the .22lr and .25ACP since I know the .32ACP is more powerful than both).

As I understand it the .22lr is much more powerful than .25ACP. However, in a semi-auto it can be a less than reliable caliber sometimes. Also, rimfire ammo isn't as reliable (more hangfires and outright duds). Still, in my personal experience there are a couple .22lr loadings in which I can't remember any trouble with the ammo. As for autoloaders in .22lr tending to be less reliable, anything I buy will be well tested before I use it to defend myself.

The .25ACP is less powerful than .22lr (though at this level neither is particularly powerful so is the .25ACP weaker by enough to be worth considering, or put better, is the .22lr more powerful by enough to counter the potential ammo reliability issues), but generally it is considered much more reliable (both the ammo itself as a centerfire, and it tends to feed better in most autos).

Personally, I'm not sure the .25ACP is more reliable enough to trump the difference in power (the .22lr is so weak I wouldn't want anything weaker, even if it is just marginally weaker). So, I do lean to the .22lr, especially since I'd certainly test the gun and planned defensive ammo combo out before using it. Also, .22lr is much cheaper (.25ACP and .32ACP isn't much less than .40S&W) so I could shoot it a lot more (with such a weak caliber it is even more important to be very proficient with any gun one intends to use for defense). Still, I'm open to feedback.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

maybe a mini???

If you'd consider it, look at the mini revolver in .22 mag, with the lr cylinder... I have one, and it is reliable, easy to carry, and about $100 cheaper than your low end option stated...

.25 is more reliable than .22 though... just remember to go with hardball for penetration...

 

[chaim]

If you'd consider it, look at the mini revolver in .22 mag, with the lr cylinder... I have one, and it is reliable, easy to carry, and about $100 cheaper than your low end option stated...

.25 is more reliable than .22 though... just remember to go with hardball for penetration...

If it was legal to buy an NAA Mini there would be no question here. That is definately the way I'd go. If I do move out of MD I will definately be buying an NAA Mini-revolver (probably a mag with both cylinders, heck at those prices maybe one of each). Unfortunately, they aren't on the MD State Police approved handgun list so they aren't legal for sale in MD.:banghead:

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

oh-

I had a beretta 21a 22lr and i liked it alot... was pretty reliable with stingers... what about the tomcats?

 

[Biker]

Although I'm almost ashamed to admit it, I have a Raven .25 I've had kicking around for decades. Although I've only fired maybe 200 rounds through it, it's been perfectly reliable with any ammo I've put through it. I can't say that for any pocket-carry size .22 I've ever ran across.
Biker

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

have you checked out mouseguns.com?

 

[dsk]

The main problem with the .22 is that so much of the ammo out there is only meant for plinking, and it often lacks the quality control necessary for self-defense ammo. Back when I was a teenager and shot .22's almost exclusively I'd always go out in the woods to shoot after school, usually 200 rounds at a time. FTF's, underpowered rounds and misfires plagued me constantly. Usually out of every 200 rounds it seemed I had at least one round that was a dud. Usually it fired when rotated in the chamber to get a fresh strike on the rim, but you know what I'm getting at. The only brand of .22 that always seemed to feed reliably and actually go BANG each time was CCI, which seemed to hold superlative quality control on its Mini-Mag and Stinger cartridges. The Blazer seemed alright as well, but Winchester, Federal, Remington, and especially the imported stuff had the occasional bad batch that resulted in lots of failures. For sporting ammo this was nothing more than an annoyance, of course. But if I'm going to be betting my life on a tiny mousegun I'm already stacking the odds against myself as it is. For me, a .32ACP is the absolute smallest I will go. However if forced to choose between a .25 or .22 I'll take the .25 just for reliability's sake.

 

[MICHAEL T]

Out of a small pocket pistol the 22 isn't any better than the 25 In fact the 25 is better till you get down to those 30gr hyper rounds.. Then drop weight in 25 and it evens out again. I trust a 25 more than a 22 for carry It was designed for a small pocket gun 22 wasn't.

 

[Ala Dan]

A Mouse Gun-

Why not a Seecamp LWS-32 auto~!

 

[Shear_stress]

The suggestions so far sound great. If money is tight, here are a couple of off-the-wall ideas that might serve you well. First, check out the the Polish P-64 offered by Aim Surplus for about $140:

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Handguns.html

This is a small PPK-knockoff chambered in 9x18 Makarov. The P-64 is supposed to be an accurate and reliable gun, and 9x18 offers good performance in such a small package. Major caveat: these guns have a dreadful double-action trigger pull. Fortunately, a fellow on either gunboards or surplusrifle.com says you can improve things immensely by replacing the hammer spring with a Walther unit (available through Wolff gunsprings). Depends on how much you want to play with your gun.

Another weird choice might be the Zastava Model 70 in 32 ACP, currently offered by Southern Ohio Gun for just under one bill (see http://www.southernohiogun.com/surplushandguns2.html). Not as small or light as, well, any of the other guns suggested on this thread. Still, the Model 70 looks like a good, solid carry gun, and eight rounds of 32 ACP is nothing to sneeze at.

 

[mtnbkr]

When I went shopping for a mousegun 4 years ago, the Guardian 32 was too small for my hand. I couldn't pull the trigger effectively without contorting my hand a bit. I ended up with the P32. Is the Guardian 380 available to you? How about the P3-AT? They're a better fit for me at least (neither the G380 nor the P3-AT were on the market back then).

The nice thing about the 380 compared to the 32 or 25 isn't so much the power increase but the availability of good defensive ammo and the cost of that ammo. If I knew I would get a good P3-AT on the first try, I'd replace my P32 with it. That said, my P32 is too reliable and too accurate to take that gamble.

As far as 22lr goes, I've shot the Taurus P22 and found it to be a decent gun. If I find one of their "pimpy" models for a good price, I'll probably pick one up. I haven't shot it, but I like the SA capability of the Beretta 21a. For a serious gun, I'd have a hard time deciding between those two.

Chris

 

[Spot77]

Just curious Chaim, what's wrong with your Bersa 380?

Are you looking at guns substantially smaller than that?

 

[Pilot]

I have a Beretta 21A in .22LR and like it a lot. After the first mag or two of break-in it has been 100% reliable with CCI Minimags.

 

[Manedwolf]

>>The .25ACP is less powerful than .22lr (though at this level neither is particularly powerful so is the .25ACP weaker by enough to be worth considering, or put better, is the .22lr more powerful by enough to counter the potential ammo reliability issues), but generally it is considered much more reliable (both the ammo itself as a centerfire, and it tends to feed better in most autos).

I've generally got an every-other load of Federal FMJ and Speer Gold Dot hollowpoints in a Beretta 950 .25.

A gun that small tends to be used when someone is right on top of you as a last resort, so I wouldn't trust rimfire to always fire properly. Centerfire for me.

Keep in mind that as to "reliability issues", it's like a parachute. It only has to fail once when you need it to get you killed.

Also keep in mind that a lot of the ballistics for a .22 out there are for a .22lr _fired from a rifle_. From a 2.5" barrel or smaller, it's much, much, much weaker.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

I've got 2 p-64's and 2 zastavas... both are utterly reliable; the p64 would be a better choice for ccw... it's lighter, thinner, and the 9mm mak is nothing to sneeze at, especially with hornaday 95 gr defensive rounds... it's got a nicer finsih too... the d-a trigger is horrendous but if you request a post 1970 model the hammer is big enough to manually cock quickly if need be... It's a poor mans ppk... but more reliable, cheaper, lighter, etc...

 

[Manedwolf]

First, check out the the Polish P-64 offered by Aim Surplus for about $140:

This is a small PPK-knockoff chambered in 9x18 Makarov. The P-64 is supposed to be an accurate and reliable gun, and 9x18 offers good performance in such a small package.

I keep hearing people say to steer clear of the Polish Maks and go for a good Bulgarian instead... it's really not much more money.

And when it's an issue of CCW and whether you want something that everyone agrees is the best, or some people like and some people hate, well...how much is your life worth?

Cheap guns to play with at the range. The best you can afford for CCW, since if it's needed, it's a matter of your life. Literally.

 

[RyanM]

http://www.plusp.com/classroom/lesson30.php

With the man atop her, pounding and pounding, Sammie Foust believed she could not survive. But finally, James Wayne Horne lay still.

When police arrived, they found tables knocked over, chairs broken, dishes shattered, the walls and floors smeared with blood.

They found James Wayne Horne where she had left him. The medical examiner concluded the first shot had entered his mouth, the second his heart, the third and fourth bullets his abdomen and groin. He had taken nearly an hour to bleed to death.

And .25 is actually probably more effective than .22, through a 2.75" barrel like on the Taurus. 40 gr .22 LR will manage maybe 900 fps through that barrel length, while .25 ACP can get up to 850 or so. At that point, the slightly wider diameter of the .25 would make it crush a bit more tissue. But not enough to make someone bleed to death in good time after shooting them in the heart. With those calibers, your only hope is either a psychological stop, a neck shot that slips between the vertebrae and hits the spinal cord, hitting the arch of the aorta, or putting a bullet right through an eye socket.

.380 with FMJs is probably the absolute bare minimum. Hornady XTPs almost meet the minimum penetration requirement, through a 3.5" or longer barrel (or if handloaded hot).

But how about looking for a used .38 snubnose instead of a pocket auto?

 

[chaim]

...what about the tomcats?

I would definately consider a Tomcat if they were more plentiful around here. The price is lower than NAA and it is a much more potent .32ACP v. the Bobcat or Taurus PT22/PT25. Unfortunately, I haven't seen one new around here for a couple years and it has been at least a year since I've seen a used one.

have you checked out mouseguns.com?

Not really, but I'll check it out. I'm not sure I really have time to join another forum, but I'm sure on a board like that, my question has been answered dozens of times.

I trust a 25 more than a 22 for carry It was designed for a small pocket gun 22 wasn't.

I hadn't really thought about it that way, but I suppose that is a consideration I should think about.

First, check out the the Polish P-64

Just curious Chaim, what's wrong with your Bersa 380?

Are you looking at guns substantially smaller than that?

Just to clarify, I do have several "pocketable" firearms, just no true pocket guns. After a recent incident in the Baltimore Jewish community (someone being attacked by a mob) I'm no longer thinking "enough" is enough- I'm more interested in "overkill". For carry (when in other states of course) I'm no longer so interested in 9mm or .38+P in my main carry gun (when carrying a revolver I'll probably go with magnums, with autos .40S&W and above), I'll rarely carry revolvers as a primary as I want more capacity and/or faster reloads, I want a backup in 9mm or .38+P. However, for home defense I'm thinking the access to additional guns allows my usual defensive ideas to be useful (ie. 9mm, revovlers, .38+P). As part of that thinking, I'm thinking a full-sized (when possible) or "intermediate" primary, a smaller backup in a service caliber or maybe .380 (a snub, Bersa, PT140 M.Pro, etc), and a pocket gun (with the pocket gun being backup to the smaller "intermediate" or small service caliber gun when unable to carry a larger gun) will be smart. Also, when/if I can go around that way, I can go back to using revolvers, 9mms, and .38+P as my primary as, like in HD, I would have several guns available to me.

So, I do have "pocketable" guns (like a snubby, my Taurus PT140 Milennium Pro and my Bersa), but I'd prefer to add a true pocket gun. The one exception is the Kahr PM9 as it isn't quite a true pocket gun- it is sized between the small service caliber "pocketable" guns and a true pocket gun.

 

[chaim]

I ended up with the P32. Is the Guardian 380 available to you? How about the P3-AT? They're a better fit for me at least (neither the G380 nor the P3-AT were on the market back then).

The Guardian .380 is available. I'd consider one, but I think I'd prefer the .32ACP version due to the smaller size and lighter weight. I also remember, at least with the earlier ones, the .380 version had some troubles not seen in the .32 version (I don't know if this is still the case).

As for the Kel-tecs, I'd love to consider the P3-AT or P-32, but they aren't available in MD. No new Kel-tecs are anymore as Kel-tec doesn't provide a fired casing with their guns. Used I could get a P11 or P40. Unfortunately, the P32 (my first choice in Kel-tecs) or P3AT are not available in MD, even used, as they are not on the MD State Police roster of approved guns. If they were available the P32 would be near the top of my list (if not the first choice altogether).

http://www.plusp.com/classroom/lesson30.php



And .25 is actually probably more effective than .22, through a 2.75" barrel like on the Taurus. 40 gr .22 LR will manage maybe 900 fps through that barrel length, while .25 ACP can get up to 850 or so. At that point, the slightly wider diameter of the .25 would make it crush a bit more tissue. But not enough to make someone bleed to death in good time after shooting them in the heart. With those calibers, your only hope is either a psychological stop, a neck shot that slips between the vertebrae and hits the spinal cord, hitting the arch of the aorta, or putting a bullet right through an eye socket.

.380 with FMJs is probably the absolute bare minimum. Hornady XTPs almost meet the minimum penetration requirement, through a 3.5" or longer barrel (or if handloaded hot).

But how about looking for a used .38 snubnose instead of a pocket auto?

Ryan, there are also plenty of examples where .22lr or .25ACP was enough, and where .45ACP wasn't. I don't trust an example of one person to be a real judgement on anything. That said, I do agree that .22lr or .25ACP isn't really enough for a primary gun. For a primary .380 is minimum and I'd prefer more.

As for the snub, I have one, see the post above for my explaination of what I'm looking for.

 

[greyfeathers]

You might want to check gunbroker.com. You can get a seecamp for about $350.00 Its the 32acp. If you see one & hold it in your hand, you wil feel the quality. You will see why there is a cult following. You owe it to yourself. Trust me. That price is nib.

 

[Pilot]

I keep hearing people say to steer clear of the Polish Maks and go for a good Bulgarian instead... it's really not much more money.

The Polish P-64 in 9MM Mak caliber is not a Makarov at all. As someone else said its a PP clone.

I agree, if you want a Makarov get a real Makarov. The Bulgies are the best deal right now.

 

[Nick96]

Baretta 950 BS. About 10 ounces and will fit in the palm of the hand. Load with .25acp with Hornaday EXP hollow points. Decent velocity. Good cutting surface on bullet face. If it penetrates it will expand. If it does'nt - the sharp bullet face will "BITE" rather than bounce off of a hard surface (i.e. bone).

This is a "last ditch effort" handgun & round. But it's small enough to be carried almost anywhere - anytime. The design is such that it will not go "out of battery" when pressed against a surface (in other words - will go "bang" when pressed firmly against the belly of a thug). And it will reliably punch 9 pencil size holes as fast as you can pull the trigger.

This is "old school" technology & ballistics. But the dang thing works - 99.9% of the time.

Too bad the little tilt barrel Beretta SA autos are currently out of production. Probably one of the most "efficient, reliable & high quality" little personal protection handguns ever designed. But there are probably a million or so of them floating around out there (also known as "Jetfires") in pristine condition after almost 50 years of production. So picking up one for well under $300 shouldn't be too difficult.

 

[Ironballs]

+1 Baretta 950 BS. my favorite mouse gun, and i have a bunch...

 

[Bobo]

For a true Pocket-gun, and by that I mean;
"A handgun that can be carried in a man's pant pocket, comfortably, completely concealed, and easily accessed."

I would suggest these in order:
Kel-Tec P-3AT
Kel-Tec P-32
NAA Guardian .380
NAA Guardian .32
NAA Guardian .32NAA
Seacamp .380
Seacamp .32
Rohrbaugh P9 or P9S

This may help also:

 

[deputy tom]

Seecamp .32acp and Beretta 950BS in .25acp are my two favorite mouseguns.YMMV.tom.