Mythbusters: Handloaded SD ammo edition

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CopperFouling

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With some frequency, I have encountered commentators on the Interwebs stating that people should never use handloads for SD, as use of handloads could be used against them in court. I must say that I am a skeptic, but I am interested in learning if there is truth to this. Is there any definitive legal proof of this (i.e. a court case that someone can cite) actually happening?
 
With some frequency, I have encountered commentators on the Interwebs stating that people should never use handloads for SD, as use of handloads could be used against them in court. I must say that I am a skeptic, but I am interested in learning if there is truth to this. Is there any definitive legal proof of this (i.e. a court case that someone can cite) actually happening?
No. Not in an actual Self Defense shooting.

There is a case where to shooter was tried and convicted and his choice of firearm (10MM) and his use of Factory Hollow Points was a factor for the jury.

Harold Fish.
 
I recall Massad Ayoob writing of a case in which a woman threatened suicide with a handgun "left out for her" by her husband. He locked the guns away, and she went for treatment.

Some time later (years, perhaps), she had been supposedly "all better" for some time, and expressed a desire to have a gun handy for home defense when he was not home. He put one out for her again, loaded with a mild handload she was known to be able to handle well.

Then came the day when he, according to his statement, caught her with the gun threatening suicide again. He attempted to disarm her, and it fired, killing her. Charged with her murder, he faced, among other things, accusations of having loaded more-potent rounds than would have been needed; the logic behind this was that some of the cases in the gun were marked "+P". He reportedly even tried to offer the rest of his batch as evidence, but the court declined to accept it, as it would have been "evidence manufactured by the defendant."

As I recall, the case did not end in acquittal.

Edit: here is an excerpt from the write-up:


The night came when he found her in the bedroom holding that gun to her head. He tried to pull it away from her, and in the struggle it went off. The bullet struck her in the head, fatally. Autopsy showed no gunshot residue, however, and because the light handloads had been made using +P cases, the crime lab tested with factory +P and determined that if his story were true, there would have been gunshot residue. The court refused to accept his reloading records or the remaining ammunition as evidence (it was, after all, “evidence manufactured by the defendant”) and after a three-trial ordeal (he was bankrupt after the first one), he was convicted of manslaughter and sent to prison. He remains today a convicted felon and ex-convict who cannot legally own a firearm.

The write-up appears here:

https://homeguntraining.wordpress.com/2014/08/05/avoiding-disasters-by-massad-ayoob/
 
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Weird how this has never come up before, right?

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloaded-ammo-for-self-defense.287817/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carry-gun-and-reloaded-ammo.519459/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/self-defence-with-handloads.779562/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...ny-documented-cases-where-it-mattered.504489/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/sd-reloads-eye-opener.540571/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloads-a-legal-nightmare.396040/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloading-defensive-ammunition.503695/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/handloading-ccw-ammo.340997/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/hand-loads-or-factory-ammo.360135/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45-acp-carry-load-what-do-you-use.106479/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...does-anyone-handload-their-carry-ammo.615574/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...se-handloads-for-ccw-and-self-defense.287223/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/getting-sued-re-reloads.693885/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/liability-for-reloads-in-self-defense-tx.496888/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/prudent-or-paranoid.571247/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/ammunition.515215/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/handloads-for-self-defense.192755/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/carrying-handloads-for-self-defense.618021/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/handloads-for-defense-sept-1-tx.266651/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/implications-of-handloads-for-sd.571132/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-ammuntion-for-ccw-instructors-police.560243/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/in-trouble-for-handloads-in-sd-urban-legend.37676/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/handloaded-defense-ammo-how-could-anyone-tell.187429/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/do-you-carry-handloads-or-factory-ammo.623165/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/hand-loading-for-self-defense.574775/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/reloads-as-self-defense-rounds.453530/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/defese-reloads-good-or-bad.812202/

:D
 
No. Not in an actual Self Defense shooting.

There is a case where to shooter was tried and convicted and his choice of firearm (10MM) and his use of Factory Hollow Points was a factor for the jury.

Harold Fish.

Interesting. Apparently Fish was asked about that in front of a grand jury.
 
"He reportedly even tried to offer the rest of his batch as evidence, but the court declined to accept it, as it would have been "evidence manufactured by the defendant."

That's the part I have never understood. Let's imagine two cases. Both involved firing one shot from a six shot revolver, so there are is one fired case and five unfired cases.

In case A, the shooter says 'It was factory Speer 135 gr GDSP'. So they either test the remaining 5 rounds, or the partial box on the bench, or buy a new box to test.

In case B, the shooter says 'It was a handload, here's my notes with the loading, and there are the 5 unfired rounds and the partial box to test' - but they can't buy a commercially loaded box, of course.

But in both cases, you're depending on the shooter to identify the load he actually shot. Shooter A could have bought a box of factory loads, but loaded (with Speer cases, a Speer 135, and CCI primers) any load he wanted. The only evidence that the fired round matches either source - the handloads or a factory box - is the testimony of the defendant - and that's true for both case A and B.

Of course you can say that it would be hard for the defendant (in most incidents) to know hoe many souped up ringers to load on top of his factory rounds - but it would be equally hard for the handloader to do the same.
 
I honestly never understood the fascination with altering a defensive weapon. Special hand loads, lightening/smoothing triggers, engraving a punisher logo etc. Why would you even want the chance to give more "ammo" to the prosecutor? Personally, I love the idea of custom firearms, but I'll keep that to my recreational weapons. To each their own though.
 
....am interested in learning if there is truth to this. Is there any definitive legal proof of this (i.e. a court case that someone can cite) actually happening?
Doesn't matter. The key issue is one of the admissibility of evidence.

In law, it doesn't matter whether a trial court case involved self defense, suicide, poison, counterfeiting, arson, odometer roll-back, rape, falsification of records, quality control issues, or whatever. What counts is the ruling of an appellate court on what kind of evidence or expert testimony may be allowed and why.

The issue of admissibility is a very complex one, and the nuances are far beyond what can be explained in a short internet posting. One can take a several hour course on the subject, but it would mean little without a good foundation in basic legal philosophy.

Should a defendant's case depend on whether gunshot residue evidence supports or contradict his testimony or that of someone else, it may become necessary to introduce test results and supporting expert witness testimony. Should the judge not allow it, the jury will never know about it.

The short answer is that one does not want to have to rely on the admissibility of evidence that one cannot have independently verified by someone else who is not a party to the litigation, and that was not created and maintained under rigorous. documented procedures.

That would include, among many many other things, handloaded ammunition.

Perhaps this will help.

I do not carry hand loaded ammunition.
 
There is no end to the lengths that a DA will go if he/she has decided an approach or angle. If he/she decides to prosecute an SD shooting, every tiny little thing, including the defensive shooter's history of visiting far right violent gun sites, regularly frequenting gun ranges, consorting with other known gun fanatics, etc., will be presented to the jury in the worst possible light. Using factory ammo may remove one angle of attack, but any DA worth his/her slime will introduce pics of one's reloading bench and other weapons if possible to demonstrate "the violent lunacy of a man who was looking to, nay , HOPING to shoot someone, and, sadly for our victim, a perhaps slightly misguided and fallable man, but his mother's son and a man with hopes and dreams cut down on his prime, he finally took the opportunity by shooting John T Crackhead down in cold blood". So me, I'm so gefukt on the other scores that I'm not going to sweat the handloads.
 
There is no end to the lengths that a DA will go if he/she has decided an approach or angle
Could be. Not always true.

The thing to remember is that witnesses may testify that they have seen or heard something other than what happened, and their beliefs may well be honestly held.

When that happens, and it by no means a rare occurrence, one cannot fault the DA for coming to conclusions that are not favorable to the defendant.

And who that happens, the only thing that may enable the defendant to prevail is favorable evidence that he pods--and that is admitted/

Don't want to "sweat it"? Go ahead.

But it costs nothing to mitigate the risk, and not mitigating it can cost everything.
 
Extremely well done, Spats!

But just so mo one misses the point, the number of cases to which one can point and the number of defendants who may have encountered extreme difficulty are two entirely different subjects. One simply has no way of knowing the latter.
 
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