Oh no!...PGO!

[Justin]

And don't give me this spiel about real world experience. In my entire time on the internet I have seen tons and tons of claims about "real world experience." You can prove absolutely *nothing* on the internet.

Proof can be offered, and certainly has been. As a for instance, I know Zak Smith in real life, I've shot with him, picked his brain about various shooting-related topics, and seen how he's placed at 3gun matches both locally and nationally. He has a high level of real-world experience, and an ability to analyze those experiences and pass that knowledge on to others in ways that are thoughtful and well-informed.

I have seven years of service in three services combined and that proves ... what? about my opinion here?

If your experience in the service gives you insight into a related topic, then it's likely that your opinion on a that related topic is worth more consideration than the opinion of, say, a fourteen year old who's only experience with the service is playing Medal of Honor 2.

Arguing from authority works when you have authority to back it up. Online, this doesn't exist, other than arbitrarily assigned authority as a moderator.

Please feel free to point out posts where I've claimed that I'm an authority on a topic simply because I'm a moderator on an internet forum.

I have a certain level of experience with shotguns; semi-auto, pump, and yes, even PGO. I've drawn certain conclusions from those experiences, some of which are documented online with video.

People are free to read my posts on the topic, and either take it or leave it as they see fit. Sometimes people will disagree with my conclusions, and that's perfectly fine.

But is it really so much to ask that if you're going to disagree with me, that you take some effort to prove your point?

Please ... please. Stop jumping down people's throats. There is a metric (dung)-ton of weapons out there that work for a whole lot of different people in different situations. Because it doesn't work as a race gun ideally doesn't diminish this as a weapon.

I compete with a somewhat, but not outlandishly modified Benelli. It's hardly a "race gun" by any popular definition of the term. There's certainly nothing about it that would render it inadequate for defensive use.

If the entire point of practically-oriented shooting competition is to run firearms under stressful situations that somewhat approximate defensive or martial usage, and if PGO shotguns were useful in those situations, it's very likely you'd see them show up at 3gun matches. But you don't. Nor do you see defensive trainers advocating that people use them.

Because in that case you'd have to jump down every single action shooters throat, too, since after all a double action is indeed the better revolver.

That would be true if we worked from the assumption that all competitive shooters are competing for the exact same reasons. They aren't. Cowboy action shooters compete in that game for reasons that are quite different from 3gun shooters, who compete in that game for reasons that are quite different from Bullseye shooters, etc.

Please, stop dogpilling these poor people and their fun PGO shotguns.

If someone has a PGO shotgun because they think it's a lot of fun to shoot, I don't know that I've ever criticized them. I take issue with PGO shotguns and their advocates when it comes to claims that PGO shotguns are an ideal tool for self defense, when this is clearly unso for any number of reasons that have already been pointed out.

 

[shockwave]

With a little bit of common sense and the right ammo a PG shotgun will do everything that you need to do to stop someone that is breaking into your house.

Actually, it won't, which is why I put a stock on mine. What hickok demonstrates is that a PGO can be accurate to surprising distances and can be shot fairly comfortably. I found this to be true and learned what works (and what doesn't) when firing my Mossberg 500 PGO.

The critical issue - and this directly relates to your comment quoted above - is that a shotgun with a stock can be fired from multiple positions that best suit the shooter and the circumstances. The PGO has a narrower range of hand and arm positions that allow you to shoot it well.

If your shooting scenario fits any of those shown in the video, you can see how the gun would run that way. But how about rolling over the bed and firing underneath it with you prone on the floor, sideways? A stock gives some options here, the PGO starts to get weak.

I'd be very, very happy with a PGO shotgun for HD - it's a fearsome weapon, given the damage it can cause. It just lacks flexibility and so if you have the means, adding a stock of some sort will give you, the shooter, many more options and increased tactical performance.

 

[Justin]

Justin that video isn't showing a pump, Apples and oranges.

I was simply responding to the fellow earlier who said:

A LOT of negative criticism...

Why don't the detractors post videos of their own?

There was nothing in his post that specified that I had to post a video of pump-action shotguns.

I don't run a pump-action shotgun because my chosen division for 3gun allows me to shoot a semi-auto.

However, if someone wants to supply me with a .308 autoloading rifle, a double-stack .45 ACP handgun, and a pump-action shotgun, along with ammunition to run them all, I'll be more than happy to run a pump-action shotgun in He-Man division and post videos up on the web.

 

[Robert]

No, we see where ya'll are coming from clearly. The issues is, that even though PGO shotguns ARE FUN FOR PLINKING AND VERY SHORT DISTANCE HD, that there are better solutions out there.

Zak and Justin have a higher combined round count with everything from High Points to top end customs rifles than any 100 people combined. I listen to what they have to say because they have more trigger time on more weapons than anyone else I know.
PGO shotguns are fun, and will function in a defense role. But better tools are out there. Some of ya'll need to take a real deep breath and maybe go to the range rather than argue on the interwebz... me I am stuck at work.

 

[Zak Smith]

In his context yes, what if we took a better shooter and gave him a better PGO gun than a hacked up beater with no front sight?

He would be unquestionably slower and/or less accurate at any practical shooting challenge than if he had a proper shotgun, or a pistol.

I would rather take a 9mm pistol than a PGO shotgun for any defensive encounter. I would rather have a regular shotgun than a PGO.

I have run local 3-Gun matches here in Northern Colorado since 2007. We typically shoot shotgun stages like this one (starting at 2:00) I will pay anyone who takes the challenge $100 if he can beat the top Tactical/Limited shooter on the shotgun stage at my match, while using a PGO shotgun.

In the last 8 years of shooting 3-gun, multigun, etc, I have only ever seen one or two guys attempt to use PGO shotguns. To put it colloquially, it was "ship of fail" bad.

to hear the experts say that defending oneself armed only with a PGO and 4 rounds of buckshot is suicide.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I write things I can back-up, and correct people when there are factual errors and broken logic.

Guns are tools and a .22LR chipmunk rifle may be a useful defense tool in some circumstances. However, that doesn't mean it is the best or most useful tool, even in those circumstances, or that it's even particularly decent. When we look at the performance of a tool, its ability to put accurate rounds on target fast, it is possible to measure how a variety of people can perform with it vs. other tools and say, yes, definitely, tool X is better than tool Y. The PGO shotgun is not a great tool when compared with other tools, and performance on objectively graded exercises can prove it.

 

[Nushif]

"Arguing from Authority" is a technique in argument. It has nothing to do with any threats, coercion or whatever have you. Here's a sample of this:
"I am a Navy Seal and shoot non-PGO shotguns for a living. This means you should take my advice over Joe Blow,"
In this case, I am using a position of authority (as a Navy Seal) to persuade the reader to believe my argument over Joe's.

This is what an argument from authority is. And this is exactly what you are doing. You're using your position of seniority on the subject as your *sole* position to argue from.
Now, on the point of that, the authority in this case that proof can be delivered falls short. Why, you may ask?
Because *I* nor anyone who doesn't know you IRL can actually verify this. You and Jack ...(I forgot his name) may very well be pros and experts to each other, because there is some kind of connection outside of these green, grey and white chatboxes. However, to anyone else this is moot. Because you type exactly the same font inside a green, grey and white chatbox as said 14 year old kid who plays CoD2. Your means of verification rely on ,,, more chatboxes and me trusting said chatboxes. Trust, sadly is neither verification nor "proof."

You get my drift here? We are in a way all equals here. So whether or not you shot at these tournaments aside a PGO shotgun is in close quarters as relevant a weapon as a club. Both do the job. To certain degrees. So discarding a PGO shotgun in its entirety as a self defense tool is to deny the inherent lethality of a PGO shotgun leveled at a door from 15 feet. And that is hard to do. there is no such thing as a useless self defense weapon or caliber in guns. There is only degrees of usefulness.
But if a PGO shotgun works for someone and they like it and they feel comfortable with it and they are even marginally proficient with it, it is deadly. It can kill. Thus any argument in semantics about effectivity for several BGs, tournaments and what have you is a non-sequitur. Especially when it comes from a nicely colored chatbox.

Again, I'm not saying it is the best tool ever and everyone should only use PGO shotguns. But if you have one and you're confident with it and you can hit a door from 20 feet, please don't grow that little seed of doubt that comes from some random chatbox laying into your e-ego. They'll do the trick. Not in an ideal way, but they work.

 

[oldbanjo]

I have bad joints, hips and knees, my gun came with both stock and PG. I personally can do more with a PG. It would be hard for me to use a stock with any speed, but i can move a PG fast enough to handle most any home invasion. Also I have no trouble pointing an shooting. I hit what I shoot at. I practice on turtles in the pond. They are a lot smaller than any BG will be. With my joint problems I would probably be better off with a 20 gauge, due to the weight of the 12 gauge. I bought two guns I didn't like the 7+1 w/20" barrel. I like the 5+1 w/18 1/2" barrel. Also I always have a second gun a SP101.

 

[Zak Smith]

Nushif,

Argument from authority is only a fallacy if it is false authority: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

In this case, Justin and I are arguing from experience, if not outright authority. In the area of practical shooting, there is consensus that stocked shotguns perform better in a variety of practical shooting problems -- the "data" to support this is that you see zero of them used by competitors at national level matches.

There is reality outside of the internet- absolutely. However, you are wrong that there is no correlation between real life and what is on the internet. Justin is Justin's real name (although he does not post with his last name), and my name is my real name. These things are easy to verify, as well as our match experience as match directors and competitors.

Your position is 100% relative in that you claim that nothing on the internet has any relation to real data and that every opinion is just as equally valid. That is false. Any fact-like statement, in real life or on the internet, is subject to challenge and defense, and those take the form of rational arguments based on facts from reality.

 

[Nushif]

You make good points, but I am still of the (online) opinion that the harsh rebuttals to the usefulness of PGO shotguns here is not in line with reality outside of well, the internet.

And even though these people named Zak Smith and whoever else may exist, there is no real "proof" that the person typing here is indeed those people. I've seen plenty of instances where a good name was used to state opinions from authority. I believe you, for what it's worth, but I cannot know this objectively and as such it is not *proof*

Point being that historically mentioning the term PGO shotgun on these boards is akin to asking for a kick in the electronic privates from everyone and their second cousin. And this is a pattern.
Even though there is a distinct niche for PGO shotguns. It may not be skeet, it may not be three-gun matches and it may not even be plinking. But kicking everyone in the electronic privates who dares mentioning that they prefer PGO shotguns is counterproductive to the atmosphere of friendliness on these boards.

 

[Girodin]

I think we all except that it is a step down or backwards in performance

Some seem to be trying to except it while others, my self included accept that it is a huge step backwards in performance.

Obviously accuracy comes first then speed but how fast does a guy have to be in the real world to defend himself?

Fast enough, and that is not intended to be a smart A response. Rather, my point is that one cannot know how fast one will have to be before a situation unfolds. With that in mind I'd personally want to be proficient as possible. I (and if we are being honest probably everyone is more proficient with other weapons than a PGO shotgun). It makes me think of an article written by Larry Corriea. I believe the title was something like"my gun fight" or the like. His point was people tend to imagine that getting into a gun fight or a HD situation will go down a certain way and thus think about and plan for the issues it presents, and fail to even consider a number of other things.

I guess you can't see where I'm coming from on this topic.

I think I can but if I understand your point to be it could be useful to some degree even if it is only a scientilla of usefulness I agree but have to ask what a professor I had would often use as a gate keeping question "so what? who cares?" I could use a chain saw or a morning star for HD they have some use but so what. What I care about is there relative value to the other tools I have available. If your contention is that they could possibly be used in defensive situation then I don't think anyone will object. However, they may not be useful enough to be worth optionally employing one for that purpose. If you go back to one of my first posts I charectorized the discussion of PGO shotguns not as whether they are utterly incapable of use for various task but rather if there is not a better tool. If there is a better tool why not use it. You could dig a basement with a spoon, or shovel, or a backhoe. While I cannot claim a spoon is utterly worthless for digging a basement it is fairly obvious there are better choices and it would be unwise to voluntarily select the spoon over the other. And so it is with PGO shotguns.

I'm sure that if one was to investigate a little, there may indeed be cases where people were successful defending themselves and their family with a PGO.

And baseball bats, and butcher knives, and their fists, and by calling 911. See above.

some of us still find it condescending to hear the experts say that defending oneself armed only with a PGO and 4 rounds of buckshot is suicide.

You are putting words in peoples mouths unless I missed where someone actually wrote that. Saying it is an inferior and even a poor choice, and unessarily handicaps you is not the same as saying it could not possibly be used to defend yourself or is "suicide" to try.

Do not read more into what was said and perhaps you will not find things so condescending. Stick to substantive arguments and not rhetoric.

Please, stop dogpilling these poor people and their fun PGO shotguns.

No one has done that.

 

[Youngster]

He would be unquestionably slower and/or less accurate at any practical shooting challenge than if he had a proper shotgun, or a pistol.

I agree, but by how much? and in a real world {as in street or wilderness scenario, might there be situations where a full stock is more trouble than its worth in terms of performance?

I would rather take a 9mm pistol than a PGO shotgun for any defensive encounter. I would rather have a regular shotgun than a PGO.

What if you run into a bear or other large dangerous animal? In that case I'd take a PGO filled with slugs over any service caliber pistol. I've known a few folks who found that a PGO was much easier to pack than a stocked shotgun as a woods defence gun.

I have run local 3-Gun matches here in Northern Colorado since 2007. We typically shoot shotgun stages like this one (starting at 2:00) I will pay anyone who takes the challenge $100 if he can beat the top Tactical/Limited shooter on the shotgun stage at my match, while using a PGO shotgun.

I think your $100 would be quite safe from just about everyone here no matter what kind of shotgun they used.

In the last 8 years of shooting 3-gun, multigun, etc, I have only ever seen one or two guys attempt to use PGO shotguns. To put it colloquially, it was "ship of fail" bad.

How were these guys trying to shoot, from the hip or underarm? Were they trying to run pumps against semis? Was the rest of their shooting as failed as their shotgunning?

 

[Girodin]

And even though these people named Zak Smith and whoever else may exist, there is no real "proof" that the person typing here is indeed those people

Look up Zak's business (in his links) and call him on the phone and ask him if he posted that stuff. Better yet show up to a major shooting event in which he is a participant. The guy is in fact well known. These rhetorical arguments are silly and I have a sneaking suspicion they are being turned to because there is a lack of substantive arguments for advocating a PGO shotgun.

historically mentioning the term PGO shotgun on these boards is akin to asking for a kick in the electronic privates from everyone and their second cousin. And this is a pattern.

No historically advocating they are a good choice for certain tasks just results in the inevitable challenges to that premise. I am guessing if I came in and advocated using one for a niche where they are a good choice, say door breaching I would not get a different response. Like wise if I wen to the auto loader forum and advocated carrying a .22LR jennings as a carry gun people would rightfully challenge me on that point.

This is a discussion board it helps to serve the market place of ideas. People can advocate the use of a PGO shotgun for anything they like. Of course others are likely to proffer arguments for why it is a poor choice. There is nothing bad about that.

I have bad joints, hips and knees, my gun came with both stock and PG. I personally can do more with a PG. It would be hard for me to use a stock with any speed, but i can move a PG fast enough to handle most any home invasion.

Personally I would take a number of my handguns over a PGO shotgun but if it works for your particular situation better than other available options then great.

I actually think debating this stuff is silly. If one really wants to find out they can take a shotgun course with each, or they can get a shot timer or some other way to make objective measurements and they can go out and shoot various platforms and make some observations. To me that is what is telling.

 

[Nushif]

These rhetorical arguments are silly and I have a sneaking suspicion they are being turned to because there is a lack of substantive arguments for advocating a PGO shotgun.

Please do reread my stuff. I am *not* advocating a PGO shotgun over a stocked one.

*I* am saying we should stop kicking people in the electronic privates the moment they express a like for them.

 

[plumbernater]

I got one of those mossbergs with a pistol grips and she will hold 7 down the mag and I want a reg. stock for it. But out of all this talk back and forth about them being any good, what I liked about the video is his shooting range I thought it was cool.

 

[Girodin]

*I* am saying we should stop kicking people in the electronic privates the moment they express a like for them.

Well seeing as how that has not happened on this thread* I guess you can rest easy [*Edit to add for clarity]

People can like or express a like for whatever they want and people wont care. I really like ruger single six revolvers. I doubt anyone will take issue. If I advocating using it for elk hunting or concealed carry someone will probably challenge me on that. This forum would be a much less rich place and not nearly as useful if no one were to do so. Like what ever you want but when it comes to advocating one needs to realize their ideas are subject to rebuttal, that's kind of how discussion works.

 

[Nushif]

If the history of this forum is what you call "discussion" with someone who prefers PGO shotguns, please.... never argue.

 

[oldbanjo]

I think this has been interesting. I also think a person walking and shooting is a target. It's a game, in real life one on one the person sitting and waiting will win the game. It's like on all the TV shows the guy running always wins, BS, I've shot too many Ducks to believe that.

 

[Zak Smith]

And even though these people named Zak Smith and whoever else may exist, there is no real "proof" that the person typing here is indeed those people. I've seen plenty of instances where a good name was used to state opinions from authority?

Like, seriously? In my case, there's about as good as proof as you can get without physically being present the whole time. And, hey, if someone hijacked "my" identity and did all the stuff that's been documented about my shooting, writing, and professional career over the last 10 years, then.. I guess.. thanks and good job ?!

I agree, but by how much?

If someone wants to lend me a PGO - or if I can get my hands on one for "free", I'd be happy to get out the shot timer and do experiments with a few shooters of varying levels of shotgun experience. My gut estimate is that shooting it will be 2-4x slower on average due to sight picture movement during recoil and awkward positioning, and reloading will be approx 2x slower.

I do know that at the Rocky Mountain 3Gun Nationals (held at the NRAWC in Raton in August), we had a Serbu Super-Shorty as a pick-up gun (16.5" overall length, 6.5" barrel). All we had to do was hit a clay like 5 or 7 yards away before ditching it and continuing with the stage. I can tell you that everyone took much more time to aim than they would have with a pistol or shotgun due to the awkward physical requirements of a PGO shotgun, and that each squad had a couple people miss the clay (and have to make it up with their handgun later in the stage).

It was not a "gimme" by any means. People often think that it's impossible to miss at close range with a shotgun. My experience with 3Gun demonstrates that this is wrong. There are plenty of people who miss 6" plates at 12 yards, or clays at 3-15 yards. At very close range, the "pattern" is very small and missing at close range is actually easier than missing a clay at a further distance. On a 35-round shotgun stage at a local match, it is not uncommon for shooters who will end up in the top 5 on the stage, to shoot five extra rounds due to misses. Take moving targets into account and the number can jump up dramatically.

Misses like these come from several common root causes:

1. pointing the gun and not aiming it (point or index shooting works but requires the body and gun position to be consistent and "right")

2. using the front sight (or bead) but not the rear (or having the vent rib much lower in the rear), and looking "over" the gun. this results in misses high

3. simply assuming that you don't have to aim the shotgun really at all and totally missing

Besides that misses are possible with a shotgun, reloading must be considered. This is a topic for another thread, but given that we cannot choose our "fight", that assailants will most likely be on the move, and that a shotgun has limited capacity, reloading must be considered. Reloading a shotgun fast under stress is not easy and most people will be lucky to reload one round every 4-6 seconds if they do not shoot 3-Gun regularly (I have never come across someone who could load fast, reliably, under pressure who was not a 3-Gun shooter).

What if you run into a bear or other large dangerous animal? In that case I'd take a PGO filled with slugs over any service caliber pistol. I've known a few folks who found that a PGO was much easier to pack than a stocked shotgun as a woods defence gun.

I agree that a shotgun filled with slugs packs an impressive amount of firepower, but given that it is much more awkward to aim and fire effectively, I would rather have a proper shotgun for that scenario, or a large revolver or 10mm Glock. If I thought I'd really have to defend myself against an angry bear, I would probably take a 16" FAL.

How were these guys trying to shoot, from the hip or underarm? Were they trying to run pumps against semis? Was the rest of their shooting as failed as their shotgunning?

It was their first match and they were totally unprepared in almost all areas. They were city boys and really had no idea about it, but I give them credit for showing up. I only mention them because they are exactly the only people I have ever seen attempt to shoot a practical match with a PGO shotgun. Everyone else, categorically, 100%, has used a regular stocked shotgun. This is for good reason.

 

[Zak Smith]

It's a game, in real life one on one the person sitting and waiting will win the game.

Like, in an ambush?

In force on force training where both parties "know" they are in a fight, the one who moves off the X and puts rounds fast and accurately into the other one first wins.

 

[Girodin]

I also think a person walking and shooting is a target.

Is a person holding still, particularly in the absence of any type of cover, not a target?

Do you think ideas about getting of the X etc are without merit.

I would prefer to be holed up behind cover in many HD type situations. I am unlikely to be able to dictate the terms of any gun fight I will be in. If I could I would simply avoid the fight. Thus I see it as beneficial to practice scenarios and develop skill sets for other than the ideal situation.

 

[Justin]

How were these guys trying to shoot, from the hip or underarm?

At the one match where I watched a guy run a PGO shotgun, one of the things that tripped him up was having to shoot through various ports.

I understand that it's possible to index a PGO shotgun, I've done this myself by propping my hand holding the grip against my Iliac Crest, canting the shotgun out about 30 degrees, and aiming by rotating my upper body, and it works alright.

Right up until you can't use that position to engage a target and have to engage a target through a high or low port, or have to use an otherwise improvised or field position.

 

[Zak Smith]

I have two miscellaneous points to make:

Some in this thread have made a big deal about pump vs. semi-auto for the purpose of speed comparisons. It is possible to shoot a pump as fast as a semi-auto, in all but the most extreme circumstances. My friend, pictured below, shoots the same speed with his M1S90 as his Nova (pictured below). He can whip just about any semi-auto shooter with the Nova. In the photo below you can see the steel plate still falling while the ejected round is already about two feet out of the port and the gun is already "on" the next target.


Here is one of those weird positions Justin referred to. It's already hard to shoot weak shouldered through a port in a tight corner. It's going to be much harder to do this with a PGO.

 

[Justin]

*I* am saying we should stop kicking people in the electronic privates the moment they express a like for them.

I fail to understand how pointing out the shortcomings of a particular gun, especially if it's one that a person intends to use for a situation as dire as defense of self or family amounts to "kicking people in the electronic privates."

Sometimes people believe things that are incorrect, and acting on those beliefs can cause them a world of misery that could otherwise have been avoided. This is one of those topics.

It's similar to the situation where every so often someone will show up in Strategies and Tactics and advocate the old wive's tail of "shooting the perp outside, drag the body inside and lie to the cops."

If someone shows up and posts that, and is roundly and rightly criticized for holding such a position, are we "kicking them in the electronic privates?"

 

[Nushif]

"shooting the perp outside, drag the body inside and lie to the cops."

There is a bit of a difference between the shotgun variety argument over "9mm vs. .45" and an illegal action. If you fail to see that difference I don't know what to say here.

 

[Leadhead]

I think I can but if I understand your point to be it could be useful to some degree even if it is only a scientilla of usefulness I agree but have to ask what a professor I had would often use as a gate keeping question "so what? who cares?" I could use a chain saw or a morning star for HD they have some use but so what. What I care about is there relative value to the other tools I have available. If your contention is that they could possibly be used in defensive situation then I don't think anyone will object. However, they may not be useful enough to be worth optionally employing one for that purpose. If you go back to one of my first posts I charectorized the discussion of PGO shotguns not as whether they are utterly incapable of use for various task but rather if there is not a better tool. If there is a better tool why not use it. You could dig a basement with a spoon, or shovel, or a backhoe. While I cannot claim a spoon is utterly worthless for digging a basement it is fairly obvious there are better choices and it would be unwise to voluntarily select the spoon over the other. And so it is with PGO shotguns.

Girodin, I guess you missed the part where I mentioned it wouldn't be my first choice?
I'm sorry I don't know what a Scientilla is but I'm assuming it's equivalent to a C.H. in my line of work in other words something small.

But thanks for acknowledging that a PGO is a useful tool for self defense and not just for fun at the range and Low Road debates.