Open Carry is Finally Getting Some Attention

[Picknlittle]

Forgive me for thinking in terms of restraints of duty. For uniformed LEO's the force continuum goes something like this.

1. Uniform presence. Not bullet proof or super human but a symbol of authority.
2. Verbal commands under color of law.
3. Chemical agents.
4. hands,....soft then hard
5. Impact devices/electronic devices
6. Lethal force

Of course circumstances may well require immediate escalation to lethal force, but that is not preferred.

Even in civilian attire, I'm required to keep this force continuum in mind. On the other hand you can just flash your big bad ass gun and women, children and bad guys alike will just melt down for ya. I can see that!

Go ahead, impress the gals,....it's all good!

 

[TexasBill]

Starbucks elitist lefties? Gee, I thought Starbucks was a shining example of capitalism at its very best. If you're talking about the patrons, I've seen all sorts in the various Starbucks I have visited. I think my favorite is the one in our local Barnes & Noble, where you can browse though a magazine or read a book while enjoying your beverage. Or use the wi-fi to get some work done.

In truth, the real elitist lefties don't patronize Starbucks because it doesn't buy coffee from the approved sources.

Open carry has a problem: except in those areas where it has long been legal and a part of everyday life, somebody's got to be first to test the waters. The only way one can do that is by openly carrying a handgun in a legal fashion. It's sort of like the four blacks who demanded service at the Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro, North Carolina fifty years ago this month. I'm not saying we need to turn out en masse with our Glocks and Kimbers but acceptance will require perseverance. It also requires acting with confidence, like carrying a gun openly is the most normal thing in the world and you're no more conscious of your sidearm than you are of your pants. If you're going to raise awareness by bopping into Starbucks bristling with hardware, thanks but no thanks. We've got enough challenges and we don't need any poster children for the opposition.

Picknlittle's argument that going openly armed might mean an assault on you might be committed on someone else is a straw man: merely being big might do the same. In addition, it's unlikely the BG is going to say, "I was gonna rob this one guy, but he had a gun so I had to rob this other guy," like he's trying to make his quota, so you'll never know. I feel bad if a neighbor's home gets burglarized but I don't feel guilty because the burglars chose his home instead of mine because I am armed; I don't know why they chose his home. I wear a gun to protect mine.

The other point about the escalation of force is also flawed. Even in states with Castle Doctrine laws, the armed citizen must exhaust every alternative to the use of any force at all. The rapid escalation to lethal force is no different: it's a last resort but there may be no opportunity to use lesser methods and there are places we can't use chemical or electronic methods.

It's a shame Picknlittle doesn't have more respect for fellow group members, some of whom have been in law enforcement, the military or other armed professions, to have a mature understanding of the responsibilities involved with carrying a firearm.

 

[wishin]

It seems to me that an LEO would welcome law abiding citizens open carrying. A visible deterrent. However, on a different level, some LEO's may feel threatened by all these people running around with guns showing and not being able to distinguish the good guy from the bad guy. Maybe we resolve to wear white hats.

 

[Superlite27]

It's a shame Picknlittle doesn't have more respect for fellow group members, some of whom have been in law enforcement, the military or other armed professions, to have a mature understanding of the responsibilities involved with carrying a firearm.

I don't think he's being disrepectful. I just believe that he's arguing from a perspective that I (and open carriers in general) want to open carry to be cool, or to look like Rambo, or to be just like a cop.

The idea that were responsible enough to carry for self defense is completely ignored.

Our desire for freedom to carry a gun in any manner we desire because it's legal gets twisted into...."You just want to terrorize people!" or "You just want to be a cop!" as if openly carrying a firearm only has merit if you also have a shiny disk pinned to your chest.

Look at his wonderful list of restraint of force:

Forgive me for thinking in terms of restraints of duty. For uniformed LEO's the force continuum goes something like this.

1. Uniform presence. Not bullet proof or super human but a symbol of authority.
2. Verbal commands under color of law.
3. Chemical agents.
4. hands,....soft then hard
5. Impact devices/electronic devices
6. Lethal force

Well, guess what. I'M NOT A COP! I DON'T WANT TO BE A COP. I DON'T CARRY A GUN TO LOOK LIKE A COP.

#1 through #5 DO NOT APPLY TO ME!

Verbal commands? Impact devices? OH! I SEE! ON MY BAT BELT! LIKE A COP! No. There is only one reason we civilians carry a gun. In case we need deadly force to protect our lives. Yet, somehow, there's a belief that we should keep this hidden. Like a dirty little secret.

I just want to carry a gun because it is legal to do so. In some places (Starbucks in California) the only way to do so is OC! (Or "UOC" since loaded guns are for cops only) It is also perfetly legal to OC where I live. So........this means if I do so there's something wrong with my motivations? Wearing a hat is also legal where I live. Playing musical instruments is legal. Buying a candy bar is legal. Yet, when I carry a gun openly, I'm suddenly a cop wannabe with an agenda.

It's like all other legal activities. Wearing a shirt is legal, right?

If I wear a blue one, does it mean I want to be a cop? Do I need a badge to do this? It's a legal activity to do so without one. Yet, If I do wear a blue shirt, I must be trying to scare people, right? (Just like carrying a firearm.) Even though it's perfectly legal, and there's nothing against the law (just like OC'ing a firearm) if I wear a blue shirt.....this is bad. I must be doing it for some nefarious reason. (Just like OC'ing a firearm)

Because the only reason folks want to wear blue shirts is to be like cops, look cool, or scare people.

The argument doesn't work with blue shirts (or any other perfectly legal activity) it doesn't hold water with legally carried firearms either.

As Texas Bill said above:

It's sort of like the four blacks who demanded service at the Woolworth's lunch counter in Greensboro

Exactly. Right on the money. They must have been trying to scare people. Expressing their civil rights like that. Right out in the open for all to see.

Well, like Rosa Parks, I also refuse to move to the back of the bus just because someone is uncomfotable with my perfectly legal activity.

 

[NavyLCDR]

On the other hand you can just flash your big bad ass gun and women, children and bad guys alike will just melt down for ya. I can see that!

Go ahead, impress the gals,....it's all good!

Very mature, well thought out and intelligent response. I commend you, officer!

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

the coffee may last 30 minutes and be accompanied by quality conversation

Haven't spent much time in U of M's central campus in Ann Arbor have you? Maybe it's my morning drive past the protesters in front of the JCC complaining about Israel. Maybe it's the dirty looks I get when I have to be in uniform in Ann Arbor. Maybe it's the fact that I have been outright screamed at for having a Sarah Palin bumper sticker more times than I can count on my hands. Or perhaps the seemingly daily gatherings in the Diag promoting some form of socialism or encroachment on freedom. Or having some sohpmore liberal arts student try to lecture me his warped view of economics while I sat by myself trying to read Alan Greenspan's Age of Turbulence.

So YES. I do mean to call them elitist. And YES I do like to see them get their comeuppance. The very air of Ann Arbor Michigan is filled with disdain, arrogance, and downright hatred and violence toward everything I believe in. I have tried just ignoring it. I don't go around preaching about guns or open carry like they try to do with global warming and socialized medicine. I don't make a point to berate strangers for not owning firearms like they do about driving an SUV. I shave, dress nicely, speak politely, and keep to myself. The college kids in Ann Arbor generally do none of these things. So YES, my heart does leap for joy just a little when I see their worldview get shaken by reality.

You and others have said that I am the exact opposite of the kind of person who should represent gun owners. Tell me, what exactly do you know about me? Do you know how I dress? Do you know how I speak? Do you know how I treat others? Do you know if I am loud and obnoxious? Do you know if I antagonize strangers for holding opposing viewpoints?

You don't know any of those things about me. So let me tell you something. When I open carry, I make a point to be clean, groomed and dressed well. I hold the door open for strangers, I give people the greeting of the day. I say please and thank you. Bottom line, I act like a decent civilized adult. Which is not something that applies to many U of M students I have had to contend with. I don't wear camo. I don't wear right-wing t shirts. I don't wear a photo/tac vest in public. I don't own anything with a Confederate flag on it. I don't spout off at the mouth about my rights and freedoms to anyone who will listen. I just go about my day in a polite manner. And I happen to have a G19 on my right hip. And uncomfort or squirming on the part of the hippies at Starbucks is on them. I don't even interact with them. So it does indeed make me smile to see Starbucks siding with us. I don't even have to talk to the college kids to make an impact.

So do me a big favor, and zip it when you're about to make a bunch of assumptions about someone you don't even know who is ON YOUR SIDE on a forum.

 

[alohachris]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Picknlittle
On the other hand you can just flash your big bad ass gun and women, children and bad guys alike will just melt down for ya. I can see that!

Go ahead, impress the gals,....it's all good!

FAIL Logical Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule

The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument." i.e.: 1+1=2 !?! That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard! Only a moron would believe that!

e.g.: The law allows citizens to openly carry firearms!?! That's stupid! They're just trying to compensate for something!

 

[cleardiddion]

I totally agree with your post Superlite27!

God knows how many times I've been OC'ing and been asked if I was a cop/wanted to be a cop/was pretending to be a cop! Ugh!

I just want to be able to protect myself, my loved ones, and I don't have a CCW! Not like I had the option nor will I till this May but that doesn't mean that I should be denied my rights.

Originally Posted by Picknlittle
On the other hand you can just flash your big bad ass gun and women, children and bad guys alike will just melt down for ya. I can see that!

Go ahead, impress the gals,....it's all good!

Grow up. Just because some people have a different opinion than you, a different approach to challenging an unfair and unjust rule doesn't provide grounds for such childish behavior.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

#81
Ragnar Danneskjold
So do me a big favor, and zip it when you're about to make a bunch of assumptions about someone you don't even know who is ON YOUR SIDE on a forum.

Do yourself a big favor and articulate your position more sensibly the first time around. This is an internet forum where most people know nothing about one another other than what is posted. Whatever assumptions were made about you were based solely upon the way you came across. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[B yond]

Dang superlite, try some decaf.

Seriously though, even if you don't like Starbucks or don't shop there, go to their website and send them a message to counteract the Brady Campaign and their ridiculous demands.

Let Starbucks see that there are people who will shop there MORE because they aren't a "gun-free zone."

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Do yourself a big favor and articulate your position more sensibly the first time around. This is an internet forum where most people know nothing about one another other than what is posted. Whatever assumptions were made about you were based solely upon the way you came across. Thanks for clarifying.

Well you certainly lived up to what they say what happens when you ASSUme.

 

[Tropical Buzz]

Lol! If all these evil people are constantly attacking you, screaming at you and berating you in spite of the Glock on your hip, that sure dispells the big myth about the intimidation factor of open carry!

This exchange makes me wonder if Starbucks actually has a pro-gun policy or simply no policy on guns. I hope the letters of support and thanks serve to strengthen an existing conviction on their part that decent customers with guns are no different from decent customers without guns and including them makes economic sense and rightfully supports the right of the individual to be armed.

What I also hope is that the wide-eyed lobbying from the Brady Bunch is not fortified with wide-eyed "letters of support" from one or two wingnuts expressing a persecution complex about elitists, hippies, yuppies, lefties and all the other "ists" and "ies" that seem to comprise a segment of Starbuck's clientele. That just might jar them into changing from no policy on guns to a no-gun policy.

 

[joe_security]

The only thing i will say about OCing is that you had better be using a holster with a darn serious retention on it such as Safariland 6281/6287/ Serpa/ or the ones based on the 070 duty holster... whatever in case some wackjob decides to help himself to your favorite carry gun. Am I opposed to OC ? No. It is your right. I just believe in firearms being well secured at all times in public. A little research will reveal a large number of options for keeping your favorite blaster out of the wrong hands. It will also prove to any LEO that you may encounter that you are a reasonable and safety minded gun carrier .

 

[svaz]

Thought I'd post the reply I got today:

Hello xxxxxx,

Thanks for contacting Starbucks Coffee Company.

For Starbucks, the safety of our customers and partners is a paramount concern. We have existing security protocols in place to handle situations related to safety in our stores. We will continue to adhere closely to local, state and federal laws and the counsel of law enforcement regarding this issue.

We appreciate you taking the time to share your perspective.



Warm Regards,



Alyssa R.
Customer Relations
Starbucks Coffee Company
800 23-LATTE (235-2883)
Monday through Friday, 5AM to 6PM (PST)

 

[lloveless]

double post

 

[lloveless]

Picknlittle wrote:I carry concealed, in part because my employer (sheriff) dictates that I do for safety and security reasons, and partly because a concealed weapon is more useful in the long run. Some one who wishes to cause harm, or commit crimes will only use the presence of an openly displayed firearm to his own benefit, by either just waiting, or making the carrier a primary target.
Case in point,...bad guy who sees a gun on hip and wants to get control of the fear factor can simply walk in kill the gun toter, and instantly has a room full of very compliant subjects. The visible gun has just become an effective tool against the gun owner and the business and patrons.

1) In what capacity do you work for the sheriff. Deputies are in uniform and open carry.
2) Tennesseeans have a fairly high rate of CCW. A malefactor who targets someone OC will NOT have a room full of compliant subjects
3) I applaud Starbuck's for taking an unpopular stand in California.
ll

 

[TexasBill]

The only thing i will say about OCing is that you had better be using a holster with a darn serious retention on it such as Safariland 6281/6287/ Serpa/ or the ones based on the 070 duty holster... whatever in case some wackjob decides to help himself to your favorite carry gun. Am I opposed to OC ? No. It is your right. I just believe in firearms being well secured at all times in public. A little research will reveal a large number of options for keeping your favorite blaster out of the wrong hands. It will also prove to any LEO that you may encounter that you are a reasonable and safety minded gun carrier .

A very good point. Much as I'd love to OC with my old Don Hume Jordan holster, that's not really a good idea. These days, I only carry sidearms for which I have a good retention holster. I just wish Blackhawk made the Serpa holsters for more of my guns, like my FNP-9, Beretta Cheetah and 3-inch S&W J-frame.