Pistol caliber carbine poll / semi-autos only

[Sistema1927]

Took the Ruger to the range today and dialed in the red dot. Ran around 300 rounds of assorted ammo through it, all types of hollow points and ball ammo mixed into the mags.

Only had one stove pipe during the session, using a generic 30 round mag, but that might have been the fault of the ammo since this assortment was basically a bunch of left overs and culls that it would be anyone's guess as to old some of it was.

Verdict: Good to go.

 

[C0untZer0]

Thanks

 

[chicharrones]

Took the Ruger to the range today and dialed in the red dot. Ran around 300 rounds of assorted ammo through it, all types of hollow points and ball ammo mixed into the mags.

Only had one stove pipe during the session, using a generic 30 round mag, but that might have been the fault of the ammo since this assortment was basically a bunch of left overs and culls that it would be anyone's guess as to old some of it was.

Verdict: Good to go.

Excellent.

 

[C0untZer0]

This poll has to be indicative of how popular the Ruger PC Carbine is going to be. I hope that the popularity will inspire some people to do gel tests with different ammo out of the Ruger. I'm pretty sure that any ammo that turns in good results from duty-sized pistols will also produce good results out of a 16" barrel, but I'd still like to actually see those results

 

[chicharrones]

This poll has to be indicative of how popular the Ruger PC Carbine is going to be. I hope that the popularity will inspire some people to do gel tests with different ammo out of the Ruger. I'm pretty sure that any ammo that turns in good results from duty-sized pistols will also produce good results out of a 16" barrel, but I'd still like to actually see those results

I'm betting that someone will do exactly that.

 

[Crosshair]

I don't want a PCC, I want a 9mm upper. That fits onto a normal AR lower. And a reliable drop in block.

LOTS of AR-ish dedicated PCCs, built for special, often shortened, lowers. Not what I want. I want a PCC upper to swap to so I can bring it to IDPA and increase my carbine experience/training time on the same system.

Many of your options are cool and if I had unlimited safe space, money, time to shoot them I'd get back into HK94s or get the 9mm Tavor, etc. But, first I want this.

Why the heck does NOBODY do what I thought of years ago?

Make a PCC AR upper in a STEN gun configuration. It's such an obvious solution. Use the mag well for bottom ejection or just kick the brass out the other side.

JRC could do this with their designs to make the magazine reverseable.

 

[C0untZer0]

Isn't that kind of tough going through doors?

On the battle field, or in the streets it seems like it would be OK, but I don't know about going through doors...

 

[Crosshair]

Isn't that kind of tough going through doors?

On the battle field, or in the streets it seems like it would be OK, but I don't know about going through doors...

I assume you are replying to my post in the STEN configuration.

It wouldn't be difficult at all. A 30 round magazine is shorter than a person is wide. You really have to work hard to come up with a realistic senario where a STEN configuration would be a meaningful impediment.

Not to mention that one wouldn't use a 33 round Glock magazine for defense anyway. For the same reason nobody uses 40 round AR magazines, reliability.

 

[CraigC]

I don't care who does it, if any maker comes out with a modern PCC with a mag that comes out the side like the STEN or Sterling, I'm getting one!

 

[Stumper]

Regarding ammo performance from a carbine.......I have by no means tested everything. Ballistics by the inch has some data on various factory loads and does show some significant gains for lightweight bullets. I prefer standard weight bullets (124gr) and the differences in a 9mm carbine vs a handgun ain't much. Unlike the magnum revolver cartridges that burn large charges of "slow" powders and show big gains from longer barrels the 9 x 19 is too efficient to gain much. My standard loadings pick up a bit over 100fps compared to a 4inch barreled handgun.....diddly squat more than my G17L(6.02 inches).

 

[DeanV]

I don't want a PCC, I want a 9mm upper. That fits onto a normal AR lower. And a reliable drop in block.

LOTS of AR-ish dedicated PCCs, built for special, often shortened, lowers. Not what I want. I want a PCC upper to swap to so I can bring it to IDPA and increase my carbine experience/training time on the same system.

Many of your options are cool and if I had unlimited safe space, money, time to shoot them I'd get back into HK94s or get the 9mm Tavor, etc. But, first I want this.

I picked up the Stern Defense upper and block. I am hoping it does the trick.

 

[C0untZer0]

Not to mention that one wouldn't use a 33 round Glock magazine for defense anyway. For the same reason nobody uses 40 round AR magazines, reliability.

I've always heard the Glock 33 round magazines were reliable, I have 2 KCI 33 rd mags that I have had problems with...

 

[Crosshair]

I've always heard the Glock 33 round magazines were reliable, I have 2 KCI 33 rd mags that I have had problems with...

Boss has a couple of the factory 33s. Fun for the range and they work almost all the time. According to him, they derp a round just often enough in the pistol that he wouldn't use them for serious business.

Perhaps they are more solid in a PCC, I don't know.

 

[kBob]

My concern for some of the self defense loads in 9x19mm in carbines is that they may be driven TOO fast. Bullet upset may be so fast that the bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough.

It may be that THE BEST stopper in your handgun might not be THE BEST in your Carbine and Vice versa.

A bud that got a .357 Carbine found he could get top performance velocity wise with one powder in his M28 and it not be as good as another powder for his Marlin and vice versa. He eventually found one that was merely excellent in both and went with that.

-kBob

 

[Sistema1927]

My concern for some of the self defense loads in 9x19mm in carbines is that they may be driven TOO fast. Bullet upset may be so fast that the bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough.

It may be that THE BEST stopper in your handgun might not be THE BEST in your Carbine and Vice versa.

A bud that got a .357 Carbine found he could get top performance velocity wise with one powder in his M28 and it not be as good as another powder for his Marlin and vice versa. He eventually found one that was merely excellent in both and went with that.

-kBob

Not a problem with 9mm. Most loads aren't going to move much faster in 16" than they do in 6":

http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/9luger.html

 

[someguy2800]

My concern for some of the self defense loads in 9x19mm in carbines is that they may be driven TOO fast. Bullet upset may be so fast that the bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough.

It may be that THE BEST stopper in your handgun might not be THE BEST in your Carbine and Vice versa.

A bud that got a .357 Carbine found he could get top performance velocity wise with one powder in his M28 and it not be as good as another powder for his Marlin and vice versa. He eventually found one that was merely excellent in both and went with that.

-kBob

Was the one that was excellent in both H110?

 

[kBob]

Not sure as it has been a while.

-kBob

 

[chicharrones]

My concern for some of the self defense loads in 9x19mm in carbines is that they may be driven TOO fast. Bullet upset may be so fast that the bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough.

It may be that THE BEST stopper in your handgun might not be THE BEST in your Carbine and Vice versa.

A bud that got a .357 Carbine found he could get top performance velocity wise with one powder in his M28 and it not be as good as another powder for his Marlin and vice versa. He eventually found one that was merely excellent in both and went with that.

-kBob

Merely excellent in both. Making me laugh again, kBob.

 

[C0untZer0]

With some popular loads you can get an idea how they are going to perform out of a carbine by looking at their +P configuration And then there are some loads like the Gold Dot that Underwood has loaded to +P+ pressures.

I'm pretty sure this 180gr Gold Dot is on the verge of disintegrating. IMO, if it had been shot out of a carbine instead of a handgun it would have come apart in the gel.

 

[CraigC]

I've played with various jacketed bullets out of the .38-40 rifle and can tell you that the 180gr Gold Dot comes apart when driven at 1470fps. It doesn't disintegrate but it doesn't stay together either. The Sierra 135's, they do disintegrate at 1600fps.

 

[CoalTrain49]

I guess a carbine using an honest rifle cartridge (bottleneck) does have some advantages like bullets and accuracy.

Maybe these PCC's are nothing more than WW2 throwbacks like the Sten and MP40.

I can see it all clearly now. We're going back to the future.

 

[bnolsen]

The Ruger offering looks like it will be a hit.

I know a guy who got one a few weeks ago and he loves it.

 

[lemaymiami]

When all the dust settles... I'd love to see exactly what the results were on the poll....

 

[Crosshair]

I guess a carbine using an honest rifle cartridge (bottleneck) does have some advantages like bullets and accuracy.

Maybe these PCC's are nothing more than WW2 throwbacks like the Sten and MP40.

I can see it all clearly now. We're going back to the future.

Some random thoughts your post brought up in my mind.

I think people are realizing that 5.56 ARs are overkill. The muzzle blast of a 16" upper is less than pleasant. Especially on a covered range. Absolutely so if having to shoot indoors.

Most people don't have access to a 400 yard range and will never have a need to make 400 yard shots, so why bother with a 400 yard rifle when a PCC works just as well at any ranges a person would actually face, uses cheaper 9mm ammo, is just as fun at the range, is easier to handload, and shares magazines with your pistol?

.223 used to have the selling point in the 80s and 90s of penitrating soft armor, but with hard armor so ubiquitous nowadays, any nut job wearing armor that stops a 9mm will be wearing something that will stop a .223. So you now lug around a 338 Lapua everywhere or just say "screw it" and carry 9mm for both long gun/pistol and accept that an armored BG will require quite a few shots to nutralize.

Note: Not saying ARs should be illegal, just saying that for most people a PCC does everything an AR would do for them and sometimes does more.

 

[Low_Speed_Notper8or]

I would take a short barreled AK type, like a Vityaz or especially a 9x19 Bizon