Police/military shotguns: the future
- Thread starter Slater
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I think a subgun is easily capable of replacing the shotgun for military purposes but it will never happen. The reason it will never happen is the training necessary for the subgun to be effectively employed is extensive and must be maintained. It is too cumbersome and expensive to train for subguns on a rank and file basis. You can employ a shotgun effectively with far less training, costs are lower and training far faster.
Then you get into the cost of the weapons themselves.....
The submachine gun is far and away more useful for military purposes IF you can use it effectively, but only the elite will be trained for that.
Then you get into the cost of the weapons themselves.....
The submachine gun is far and away more useful for military purposes IF you can use it effectively, but only the elite will be trained for that.
Preacherman
Member
Slater, the shotgun fills a niche that no other weapon can adequately fill. The shotgun simply does too many things with reasonable efficiency, whereas a rifle or sub-machinegun does one or two things well, but the rest not at all. A shotgun (typical pump-action police gun) can:
- Fire birdshot, buckshot or slugs, letting you tailor the ammo. to the situation;
- Fire non-lethal rounds (beanbag, rubber buckshot or ball, etc.);
- Fire gas munitions into a barricaded room;
- Fire door-breaching rounds;
- Has tremendous shock power on impact, and (with slugs) can put down a BG on drugs more reliably than almost any other police weapon;
- Has a very menacing big bore and racking sound that has demonstrably intimidated felons into surrender many times;
- Is relatively easy to use, requiring little training for basic competence;
- Is relatively low-cost (try three police 870's for the cost of one AR15!).
I don't know any other weapon that offers all these advantages at such low cost - and that's why police forces will almost certainly continue to use them.
- Fire birdshot, buckshot or slugs, letting you tailor the ammo. to the situation;
- Fire non-lethal rounds (beanbag, rubber buckshot or ball, etc.);
- Fire gas munitions into a barricaded room;
- Fire door-breaching rounds;
- Has tremendous shock power on impact, and (with slugs) can put down a BG on drugs more reliably than almost any other police weapon;
- Has a very menacing big bore and racking sound that has demonstrably intimidated felons into surrender many times;
- Is relatively easy to use, requiring little training for basic competence;
- Is relatively low-cost (try three police 870's for the cost of one AR15!).
I don't know any other weapon that offers all these advantages at such low cost - and that's why police forces will almost certainly continue to use them.
I think you'll see it around still, but instead of a dedicated 'non lethal' orange gun and a black tactical one, you'll see a gun that can 'index' lethal and non lethal ammo via selector switch.
IE you just fired stingballs and crackershells into a group of advancing rioters, only to see a felon stabbing one of your own guys with a pointed stick 40 yards away, flick the switch and send a lead slug to the bad guy. it's faster than transitioning to a handgun.
IE you just fired stingballs and crackershells into a group of advancing rioters, only to see a felon stabbing one of your own guys with a pointed stick 40 yards away, flick the switch and send a lead slug to the bad guy. it's faster than transitioning to a handgun.
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Back during the Moro Insurrection, our soldiers had trouble dropping those fanatical Islamic Extremists with 30-40 Krags, 38 New Armies, etc, before the Moros carved them up. The 45 ACP Government model was developed because of this.
A pay train, IIRC, was ambushed by a group of Juramentados, fundamentalists sworn to kill until they died. The 6 solders in the escort had Model 97 Winchesters and 00 buck. No soldiers were hurt, the final score was 11-0.
Shotguns, whether issued or not, keep turning up in hot zones. Stopping power is unequalled, MOA is simple, and the soldiers have faith in the shotgun's ability to protect them and accomplish the mission.
A pay train, IIRC, was ambushed by a group of Juramentados, fundamentalists sworn to kill until they died. The 6 solders in the escort had Model 97 Winchesters and 00 buck. No soldiers were hurt, the final score was 11-0.
Shotguns, whether issued or not, keep turning up in hot zones. Stopping power is unequalled, MOA is simple, and the soldiers have faith in the shotgun's ability to protect them and accomplish the mission.
OK, I have to stick my nose in here. I could be wrong, but I doubt that you will ever see the ability to switch from lethal to non-lethal loads in the same shotgun. Just think about it for a minute..........in the heat of battle, what if you were to fire into a crowd with buckshot or slugs because you forgot to switch?
Most LE agencies use special shotguns that are designated for non-lethal or less then lethal ammo only. They usually have a bright orange stock set and maybe an orange sling. The rules are quite strict on the use of these shotguns. Load lethal ammo in them and you get fired.
Not very long ago a cop killed a perp when his partner handed him a shotgun that he thought was loaded with beanbags. The rooky cop was excited and didn't notice that the shotgun didn't have orange stocks. Very sad.
Yes, AR-15s and sub-guns are cool, but the LEOs who know what they are doing still reach for the shotgun. Our local agencies carry both. By the way, most issued MP-5s are semi-auto. Would you want your average street cop wandering around with a full auto sub-gun?
Most LE agencies use special shotguns that are designated for non-lethal or less then lethal ammo only. They usually have a bright orange stock set and maybe an orange sling. The rules are quite strict on the use of these shotguns. Load lethal ammo in them and you get fired.
Not very long ago a cop killed a perp when his partner handed him a shotgun that he thought was loaded with beanbags. The rooky cop was excited and didn't notice that the shotgun didn't have orange stocks. Very sad.
Yes, AR-15s and sub-guns are cool, but the LEOs who know what they are doing still reach for the shotgun. Our local agencies carry both. By the way, most issued MP-5s are semi-auto. Would you want your average street cop wandering around with a full auto sub-gun?
Dave McCracken
Moderator In Memoriam
Good to see you,DML. Welcome!
The board stands to gain much from your expertise.
As to your question, we've cops I'd prefer to see armed with NERF guns. The days when a beat cop was expected to know how to use his/her equipment are past.
I quit depending on cops long ago.
The board stands to gain much from your expertise.
As to your question, we've cops I'd prefer to see armed with NERF guns. The days when a beat cop was expected to know how to use his/her equipment are past.
I quit depending on cops long ago.
Rob62
Member
Slater,
I believe that shotguns will continue to see use by law enforcement and the military for the next couple of decades at least.
As some have already said, SG's fill a niche that no other weapon can.
As an anecdote. I once had a situation where I had to make a choice between grabing my AR15 clone or my shotgun in an encounter that could have been ugly real fast.
Range would have been minimal, less than 25 yds. I grabbed the shotgun. While the AR had a 30 rd magazine and was just as handy to grab, the shotgun was loaded with 6 slugs. At 25yds my shotgun is amazingly accuate and there is no doubt that a single slug to COM would have been more than enough to stop the threat should deadly force have been necessary.
In my opinion if you are up close and just gotta have the ultimate in stoping power there is no weapon that can compare with the SG.
Rob
I believe that shotguns will continue to see use by law enforcement and the military for the next couple of decades at least.
As some have already said, SG's fill a niche that no other weapon can.
As an anecdote. I once had a situation where I had to make a choice between grabing my AR15 clone or my shotgun in an encounter that could have been ugly real fast.
Range would have been minimal, less than 25 yds. I grabbed the shotgun. While the AR had a 30 rd magazine and was just as handy to grab, the shotgun was loaded with 6 slugs. At 25yds my shotgun is amazingly accuate and there is no doubt that a single slug to COM would have been more than enough to stop the threat should deadly force have been necessary.
In my opinion if you are up close and just gotta have the ultimate in stoping power there is no weapon that can compare with the SG.
Rob
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Preacherman
Member
Actually, Rob, we moderators use a mouse button to select the "Close Thread" command...
Rob62
Member
Preacherman,
What was I thinking about
Subject for a new topic- "SG slugs stop threads!?!?"
Rob
What was I thinking about
Subject for a new topic- "SG slugs stop threads!?!?"
Rob
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