Reality vs Fantasy: the case for .22 Carry

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"Killing a threat" vs. "stopping a threat".

That's a moral/legal issue and has nothing to do with ammo type. Self-defense "stopping of a threat" is not the same as wartime "killing of a threat".

If the Geneva Convention allowed more effective ammo than FMJ you can be darned certain our soldiers would be issued better ammunition.
 
I find it amusing that people really beleve they are that much better off with a 32 or 380 for SD because of power. your dealing with a 1/4" ice pick vs a 5/16 or 11/32 ice pick. to the stuff you have to hit to stop Mr BG hole size isn't going to make a big difference.
The better argument against carrying a 22 would be the reliability of rimfires.
 
Sure, a 1/4" diameter soft lead ice pick. Think about how useful that would be. "Oh dear, it bent on your shirt button"

I would certainly take a 90 grain bullet going 1000 fps vs. a 40 grain .22 going 1080. (Knock some fps off for short barrels.)
 
^^^ see what I mean that's funny right there 22s bounce right off buttons lol^^^

ETA had a guy at the range ND into the table on the range. WWWB 380 point blank. It cracked the formica and stuck there with more of the bullet sticking out, than went into the wood. So sorry if I don't share the 380 is the Hammer of Thor sentiment.
 
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So sorry if I don't share the 380 is the Hammer of Thor sentiment.

I don't think any practical pistol caliber is deserving of the title Hammer of Thor. But, .380s do make considerably larger holes than a .22. That means more blood loss, which results in faster incapacitation.
 
I don't think any practical pistol caliber is deserving of the title Hammer of Thor. But, .380s do make considerably larger holes than a .22. That means more blood loss, which results in faster incapacitation.

While I too ideally prefer the larger caliber when given the choice, I'm not so sure that the aforementioned statement is true. It all depends on where the round (be it .22 or .380) hits the body. Not trying to split hairs but I'm just saying...

-Cheers
 
I'll play devils advocate here for the op. We'll take last night's news in AZ for example.

Assailant robs a convenience store, brandishes firearm. Guy behnd the counter acts like he is getting cash, but grabs the gun instead. Robber flees at first shot, returning fire (twice) in retreat. Both shooters are wounded. Now much as I would like, i simply don't have time to back this next part up with extensive linkage, but I'm willing to play the odds that this is a typical scenario-- Once confronted with a firearm, an assailant is not going to stick around to determine the caliber. Few situations will afford the target time to determine "Will this caliber kill me immediately?" and any gunfire will be considered an immediately life threatening situation.

Ergo, any firearm is an effective deterrent, be it a .22 or .45.
Here's where devil's advocacy ends.

The ability to instantly neutralize the threat is an entirely different matter. A .22 can and will kill somebody, but short of predetermined shot placement, almost never immediately. The ability to end the threat now is valued simply for the fact that you can prevent the target from further action. Larger calibers allow for more margin of error in shot placement while retaining the higher odds of outright dropping the person shot, preventing the possibility of retaliation even in retreat. You may have scared them with that .22, but that doesn't negate the possibility of them employing their own arms just to get away from you.

Long story short, deterrence is only half of the equation. If you actually have to pull the firearm it doesn't matter what it is-- It'll get their attention when. With a .22, you hope they'll just run away. With higher calibers, you're deciding the outcome for them.
 
larger holes ... means more blood loss, which results in faster incapacitation.

I've heard so many iterations of this that I'm beginning to think high school biology is teaching that the human body is a bag of blood. Poke a hole, the blood runs out. Poke a bigger hole, the blood runs out faster.

Puncturing a hole in the skin does not automatically mean that blood will leak out until the body is empty, and a larger hole doesn't make the blood leak faster. Unless a major blood vessel is nicked or severed, the body is pretty efficient at closing holes. It's called "clotting". Its what blood does.

Some bullets are more likely to just poke holes. Some bullets are more likely do a lot more. The more damage a bullet does, the more likely the damage will impact a major blood vessel or organ, break a major bone, or impact the central nervous system. That is what determines the speed of incapacitation, not the size of the bullet hole.
 
While I too ideally prefer the larger caliber when given the choice, I'm not so sure that the aforementioned statement is true.

So good at splitting hairs we are. Of course I meant with proper shot placement.
 
You know what? Carry what you want. I'm never answering one of these threads again. It's your keyster, not mine.

Get the cheap fire extinguisher, because the important thing is having one, right? Buy a used parachute, because if you REALLY need to use it, it doesn't really matter how good it is, the damaged one will be fine. Pull a smoke alarm out of your neighbor's garbage can and tack it to your ceiling. When you are trying to save your life, the rock bottom cheapest and least intimidating tools will do the job just fine.
 
Long story short, deterrence is only half of the equation.
Statistically speaking, it's about 90% of the equation because that's the rough percentage of the time that a defensive gun use is resolved successfully either without a shot being fired or without the assailant being hit by a shot.

Even in the cases where the gun alone isn't sufficient deterrent and the assailant is actually shot, the FBI acknowledges that in the majority of cases "psychological/mental incapacitation" results from the assailant's decision to cease hostilities. In other words, capitulation is not an actual physical necessity due to the injury/damage caused by the bullet--the person gives up because he decides to, not because he has to.

It's only rarely that incapacitation results as a direct consequence of damage that renders the attacker unable to continue attacking. In short, caliber rarely enters into the equation because it's only rarely that physical incapacitation happens or is necessary to end an attack.

That doesn't mean one should ignore caliber or expect someone to automatically run at the sight of a gun--far from it. But it's important to maintain a reasonable perspective.
With higher calibers, you're deciding the outcome for them.
That's a dramatic overstatement.
The bottom line is that if you have to physically break an assailant down with a handgun, you're in a pretty bad spot regardless of what the bore diameter is. Cirillo pointed out in his books that during his numerous shootouts he saw failures to stop with virtually every firearm they employed--up to and including 12ga shotguns.

Handgun bullets, even from the more commonly recommended self-defense pistol cartridges only damage a very small percentage of an adult human male attacker. Relying on the size of the bullet to do the job is largely wishful thinking. The key to success is which part of the attacker is destroyed far more than it is how much of him is destroyed--at least on the scale of tissue destroyed that we're talking about.

And that comes down to skill and probably a lot of luck too. The idea that one's choice of caliber "decides the outcome" is not at all realistic.

That said, I'm NOT saying that rimfires and very small calibers are a good choice for self-defense nor that they give up nothing to larger calibers. Clearly neither of those statements is true.

I never initially recommend anything smaller than a .380ACP for self-defense and even then, the .380ACP gets some caveats due to its tendency to underpenetrate with expanding ammunition. Sometimes people can't or won't carry/shoot something that large, and then I'll try to help them find something that will work for them.

The point is that even a pistol in a small "ineffective" caliber can be a lifesaver--it's really sad when well-meaning advisors convince people that if they can't/won't carry/use "Caliber X" that they might as well not carry any gun at all.

When my wife made the decision to carry 100% of the time, she chose a .32ACP. I wasn't thrilled with that decision, but I was happy that she was able to shoot her chosen weapon competently and that because of the size & weight of the pistol she was able to carry it comfortably enough that she didn't look for excuses to leave it home.

After some years of carrying, she's decided to move up to a .380ACP pistol. I might have been able to push her into that decision initially, but the odds are that because the decision to "upgrade" is hers, she'll be much more invested in making her new choice work for her. Just as she was invested initially because she picked out the gun she has been carrying for years now. I consider it very likely that she would have become discouraged and stopped carrying had I tried to coerce her to initially carry a gun she thought was too big or kicked too much.
 
My uneducated guess is shot placement regardless of caliber. You can hit an attacker in the thigh with a .45 and he'll still function enough to possibly put you down. Hit him in the eye or heart with a 22, and it's game over.
Shot placement is key, but in a real life situation, who has time to aim? It's point and shoot and hope for the best. Get as much lead down range as quickly as you can and hope you win. If it's not over and your still alive, RELOAD!!

Unless the thigh is grazed, the .45 round will incapacitate the attacker unless he is a drug addled insurgent. The soft tissue damage, and resulting fracture if the bone is hit will knock any but the most crazed psycho on their butt. This has become a silly thread. A .22 while better than nothing is a ridiculous weapon to base your concealed carry defense on, but hey its a free country, do what you want. Just please do not try to persuade others to under-equip themselves, this is their life you are playing with.
 
The soft tissue damage, and resulting fracture if the bone is hit will knock any but the most crazed psycho on their butt.
There's a lot of "thigh" that doesn't contain bone. It's not at all a given that a thigh hit will break a bone. It's not even a given that the bone will be broken to the point of failing (separating) if the bullet hits it.

Second, according to the FBI's wound volume figures, a handgun bullet from a .45ACP destroys about 2-4 ounces of tissue assuming it penetrates to full depth of about 14". A thigh isn't that thick so cut that figure roughly in half. An adult male's thigh is made up of maybe 240 ounces of tissue so we're talking about destroying less than 1% of the mass of the thigh. The idea that destroying less than a hundredth of the mass of a person's upper leg will certainly incapacitate them is not at all realistic.
 
An adult male's thigh is made up of maybe 240 ounces of tissue so we're talking about destroying less than 1% of the mass of the thigh.

You are describing a thigh as if it were a block of ballistic gelatin.
 
Geez...people have certainly taken 45's to the thigh or other parts of the body and kept fighting...they have also certainly taken 22's and stopped.
Nothing is certain.
What is certain is that in my retail job, I certainly cannot carry what I would like to, or have a shotgun or carbine standing in the corner.
I can have a Beretta 21 in my pocket and be resolute enough to use it if needed to save my life.
No fantasies of displaying it and scaring away the bad guy, no expectations about the power of the 22... Just the certain knowledge that my particular Beretta 21 functions well with good ammo and hits where it is aimed. Everything else is in a higher powers hands.
 
But, .380s do make considerably larger holes than a .22. That means more blood loss, which results in faster incapacitation.
Well please explain to me exacticly where in the human body you can put this "considerably" larger hole that incapitation time is likely to be signifigant?
 
Well please explain to me exacticly where in the human body you can put this "considerably" larger hole that incapitation time is likely to be signifigant?

If you are using a .45 apparently anywhere is good because you have this "margin of error".
 
I dunno, there are plenty of more potent (yet still small) caliber pocket guns about the same size as that taurus. My uncle has carried a .32 seecamp comfortably for years.
 
Statistically speaking, it's about 90% of the equation because.

Statistically speaking, 90% of statistics are pulled from thin air with no corroborating fact.

You don't carry around insurance because you don't think you'll be hit in a car, and people with any sense of responsibility carry more than less to guard against catastrophic encounters. You may not agree and I don't care frankly, but fire arms are the same way.

A .22 is minimum state mandated coverage. If you think that's enough to get you by, good for you. And now that the insurance allusion has been beat sufficiently, I'll just hope you don't get into a situation that will require more than the state minimum while simultaneous hoping we're not in your car when it happens.
 
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this thread is something like this:


Side 1: Small guns in tiny calibers with bad sights that shoot tiny bullets slow are good enough! (also, they're hard to shoot)

Side 2: Small guns in slightly less tiny calibers with bad sights that shoot slightly less tiny bullets are good enough! (still just as hard to shoot, though!)
 
this thread is something like this:


Side 1: Small guns in tiny calibers with bad sights that shoot tiny bullets slow are good enough! (also, they're hard to shoot)

Side 2: Small guns in slightly less tiny calibers with bad sights that shoot slightly less tiny bullets are good enough! (still just as hard to shoot, though!)
Side 3: Carry the largest caliber you can/use/afford. Be as less tiny as possible, but in the end anything is better than nothing.
 
A .22 is minimum state mandated coverage. If you think that's enough to get you by, good for you. And now that the insurance allusion has been beat sufficiently, I'll just hope you don't get into a situation that will require more than the state minimum while simultaneous hoping we're not in your car when it happens.
The problem I'm having is packing a .380 is like bumping the state mandated minimums from $25K to $30K it's just not gonna help much when you run into the $100K Mercedes.
The moral of the story is if you drive in the slums you can probablly get away with less insurance and pack a bigger gun. In the ritzy nieghborhood you are probably good with a mouse gun but you better have good insurance but ultimatly you have to make your own risk assesment.
 
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