armoredman
Member
If I need my vz-58, whixh I hope I never have to, but if I need it, it is loaded with Wolf Black Box JHP. If I need my rifle, the wheels have well and truely come off the wagon.
7.62x39 home defense ammo
- Thread starter spyke
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rd2007
Member
anybody know how Hardiplank (cement fiberboard) holds up? All houses in my neighborhood have to have four sides brick on the bottom story and the top story is either brick or Hardiplank or, most commonly, a combination of the two. By my bed I have my SP101 and AK on my side and the XDm is on my wife's. I just got the Mossberg, so that might change around some once I get used to shooting it. I prefer the AK because I am very comfortable with it and extremely accurate. I also know it is going to make a quick impression on any BG that sees it in my hands and I have no doubt it will at least stop and probably immediately drop anything not on PCP.
Big Bill I think those RRLP bullets are designed for training, not shooting living things with, I know that in the case of pistol frangible ammunition it usually acts as FMJ on live tissue, being made to break up on steel people don't give it enough resistance, I think that those are probably similiar to pistol frangibles in that way.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
My house has that too. I've never attempted to shoot it and hope I never do, but it was a PITA to drill through. It's by no means bulletproof but I imagine it would take a lot of momentum off the projectile.
Anybody have some around they can shoot after going through a couple pieces of drywall?
devildog32713
Member
Mossberg SPX, with Remington BB home defense ammo, if you are out in the country somewhere, a 7.62x39 isn't a big problem, but in the suburbs, Shottie is best
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
since I own a rifle in X39 I'll weigh in, the Hornady bullet shown does indeed expand rapidly but since no idea of the o.p.'s 'suburbs' I'll say that it's too much power. the slugs would easily penetrate through a BG and interior walls and likley make it on through a brick wall - facer bricks that is not the weight -bearing foundation type but maybe even through that too.
a shooty with small buck is very likely a better choice. or a medium power pistol.
a shooty with small buck is very likely a better choice. or a medium power pistol.
Oh Big Bill I'm not 100% about that, but from the advertising information it really looks to be designed and marketed for training purposes only, there are definitely two kinds of frangible bullets though, ones for use against steel/range safety enhancers, and then ones like the Glaser/Magsafe bullets.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, if you're talking about civilian .223, it isn't rubbish. Civilian .223 JHP and SP under 60 grains generally penetrate LESS in gelatin AND drywall than 9mm JHP, .45 JHP, and 00 buckshot, and have reduced lethality on the back side of even a single wall compared to 9mm JHP, .45 JHP, and buckshot. Law enforcement journals have published multiple studies on this.
You cannot generalize FMJ behavior to fragile-JHP behavior, and that is just as true of .223 Remington as it is 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, or .357 magnum. E.g., 9mm NATO ball penetrates wallboard like nobody's business, whereas many 40- to 62-grain .223 JHP and SP will fragment in the first or second complete wall (2-panel) and not fully penetrate a third.
And once again, you cannot generalize that to all centerfire rifle calibers, nor can you generalize FMJ behavior to JHP in any caliber, rifle or handgun.
For more on .223 lethality after penetrating wallboard (and discussion of .223 JHP/SP vs. handgun and shotgun rounds in general), see Roberts G.K., "Law Enforcement General Purpose Shoulder Fired Weapons: the Wounding Effects of 5.56mm/.223 Carbines Compared with 12 ga. Shotguns and Pistol Caliber Weapons Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant, Police Marksman, Jul/Aug 1998, pp. 38-45. The conclusion of that article follows.
The post-drywall-lethality studies in that article comparing .223 to various handgun and shotgun calibers are enlightening. I will also note that the author (who is of the Fackler deep-penetration school of thought) excludes many .223 JHP's from the study on the grounds that they don't penetrate enough to be considered for law enforcement use.
Now, having said all that, 7.62x39mm is not .223, and throws bullets over twice as heavy at considerably lower velocity, which will produce more wall penetration than .223 JHP, no question. So while .223 JHP penetrates less than 9mm JHP, as a rule, I would not expect the same behavior out of readily available 7.62x39mm JHP. Hence, I would suggest using 7.62x39mm only in a brick-sided home or otherwise safely backstopped, using the most readily fragmenting JHP available (which currently seems to be WMC 8M3 124gr JHP and Hornady VMAX).
It would be possible to construct a light, fast 7.62x39mm load with a fragile JHP or ballistic tip that would offer less wall penetration than typical handgun rounds, but there is currently nothing on the market in that category that I am aware of, aside from specialty prefragmented rounds like Glasers and such that are prohibitively expensive. Unfortunately, because there is much more law enforcement and non-LEO civilian HD/SD interest in .223 Remington and even .308 Winchester than there is in 7.62x39mm, most such development work has focused on the former and not the latter.
Onward Allusion
Member
Forget about the effectiveness, ineffectiveness, ability to penetrate or not for a moment.
If you live in the suburbs and kill an intruder with an AK, depending on which state or locale you live in, it is pretty much a guarantee for legal action - either from the local DA or the perp's family - even if it was a righteous kill.
Now of course in a SHTF scenario, all bets are off...
If you live in the suburbs and kill an intruder with an AK, depending on which state or locale you live in, it is pretty much a guarantee for legal action - either from the local DA or the perp's family - even if it was a righteous kill.
Now of course in a SHTF scenario, all bets are off...
Onward, why do you say that? If it is a justified shoot it's a justified shoot, be it with a 1911 in .45, a Beretta 9mm, a Glock or CZ .40, a Mossberg 12 gauge, a Remington 20 gauge, a Sako .308, a Mosin-Nagant, or some intermediate rifle like an AK or AR pattern rifle.
HB
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This aspect is never brought up, but .223s/almost all rifles will launch a bullet WAY further than about any shotgun projectile. If you shoot at somebody in your doorway and miss that .223 bullet is going to be flying way down the street. A shotgun, while maybe more apt to penetrate more of your drywall, is not going to put much out there lethal past 200 yards.
I am mostly just stirring the pot here because a varmint bullet to the chest is going to drop you, I would assume even through heavy clothes but it is interesting to turn the argument around.
HB
You can always just move into an old house like mine and be fairly safe with a 50-90 too
I've also always found this statement a bit strange but true. However, can you recommend a varmint bullet for defense? Obviously the .223 puts out a huge amount of energy at close range but penetration is often touted as the most important factor in stopping an attacker. Will this varmint bullet explode in the first inch of flesh as designed?
I am mostly just stirring the pot here because a varmint bullet to the chest is going to drop you, I would assume even through heavy clothes but it is interesting to turn the argument around.
HB
You can always just move into an old house like mine and be fairly safe with a 50-90 too
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The 40-grain bullets penetrate relatively little (sometimes less than 6 inches), but the 55-grain JHP's penetrate 11-12" which is entirely adequate. And unlike the case with handguns, there is really no question as to whether temporary-cavity/dynamic effects play a role at rifle velocities; they do.
Here are some ballistic gelatin tests from Federal. My own personal preference is the 55gr JHP. Dr. Roberts (author of the article I mentioned upthread) likes to see more penetration than this for LE use, since an officer may be shooting down from a rooftop, up from below, from the side, and whatnot. My own opinion is that for ordinary non-LE, in-home use, 11-12" is entirely sufficient. If you notice, penetration and expansion with clothing is very similar to that without.
Bare ballistic gelatin:
Gelatin covered by clothing:
Back to 7.62x39mm per the OP, I don't have any gelatin images for 7.62x39mm JHP's, but here is some numeric data:
The Ulyanovsk/Sapsan load mentioned above is now sold as Wolf Military Classic 124gr JHP (not 122gr Wolf black-box JHP).
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Onward Allusion
Member
I totally agree from a technical perspective. However, it's all about perception. Stopping an intruder with an "evil assault weapon" -vs- Stopping an intruder with a standard police issued Glock.
Ben, I saw a 22 Long Rifle bullet from a 4" pistol zip through three walls in a home. Stopped by a 4x4 and buried so deeply we couldn't find it without serious digging. What would a 223 have done?
I said that I THINK any CF rifle is bad choice in an urban dwelling because of over penetration. You're DAMNED RIGHT that's a generalization but it's still a correct assessment and I stand by that statement.
You, of course, are free to disagree although I don't understand why it seems so important to you to do so.
I said that I THINK any CF rifle is bad choice in an urban dwelling because of over penetration. You're DAMNED RIGHT that's a generalization but it's still a correct assessment and I stand by that statement.
You, of course, are free to disagree although I don't understand why it seems so important to you to do so.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
As I have opined elsewhere, it seems to me that in the vast majority of self-defense cases, if a self-defense shooting is clearly justifiable by the facts of the case, the model or styling of the weapon used will not even enter the picture, assuming the weapon was legally possessed; I am under the impression that weapon choice would generally only come into play only if the case were questionable to start with. The self-defense case where the guy used a Title 2 full-auto AC556 is the only counterexample I can think of off the top of my head, and we're not talking about Title 2 weapons here.
For example:
In my layperson's opinion, choice of any practical NFA Title 1 firearm (whether handgun, shotgun, antique-looking rifle, or modern looking rifle) ranks well down the list of aggravating factors compared to things like the homeowner's demeanor, aggressive posturing prior to the incident ("trespassers will be shot" signs, that sort of thing), 911 recordings if any, and prior criminal history if any. Documented competence prior to the incident and intelligent weapon choice (i.e., no hair triggers) can reduce the risk that the prosecution will claim the shooting was a negligent discharge as a means to get a manslaughter conviction, though, and there is indeed precedent for that concern (and that claim can be laid against a Glock just as easily as it can against a carbine).
Certainly, if you live in a jurisdiction in which you have an unethical and gun-hating DA who is looking to railroad homeowners who shoot in self-defense, then that might be a valid concern, but in most of the USA use of a modern-looking rifle generally does not seem to enter the picture. I have seen a number of news stories over the last couple of years in which homeowners successfully repelled home invaders with AK's/AR's, and it was treated the same as if they had used any other civilian rifle.
A light .223 JHP traveling at 2700-3000 ft/sec? It probably would have fragmented in the first or second wall and peppered the third wall with bullet fragments. A .22LR bullet typically stays intact and keeps drilling, because it's not being driven fast enough to fragment in drywall; that is not true of .223 JHP's.
Here are pics, if you're skeptical:
http://230grain.com/showthread.php?t=65428
.223 40gr, front of the first wall:
Back of the first wall:
Front of the second wall, showing fragment impacts:
Front of the third wall:
The Winchester 55gr SP in that test behaved similarly; only fragments exited the second wall and none fully penetrated the third wall (a couple of fragments penetrated the near sheet of the third wall but were stopped by the far sheet). 00 buckshot, on the other hand, went through all three walls and kept on going.
Again, the necessary disclaimer that 7.62x39mm is not .223, so I'd only use extant 7.62x39mm JHP's in a brick-exterior home or otherwise safely backstopped, but it is indeed true that properly chosen .223 loads will penetrate less in drywall than most handgun bullets or heavy buckshot.
It is important to me to counter this popular misconception because
(1) it is false...
(2) it may lead to bad choices if you're looking to minimize penetration (I have actually seen someone argue that they use shotgun slugs instead of light .223 JHP's because they are concerned about overpenetration---seriously) or to penetrate cover (.223 JHP isn't the load for that, if you need penetration),
(3) the .223-shoots-through-houses myth has been used by the gun control zealots in support of the "assault weapon" fraud (ya can't use that for self-defense, ya'd shoot yer neighbor), and
(4) this misconception was laid to rest ten or fifteen YEARS ago in controlled tests that are documented all over the 'net, and yet in every thread about use of carbines for HD, the canard that "centerfire rifles penetrate too much, use a pistol instead" is always brought up.
So, here's more data on .223 penetration, for good measure.
http://m4carbine.net/showpost.php?p=191675&postcount=9
That was originally published by Gunsite quite a few years ago. This is not new. I think perhaps the myth of .223 penetration perpetuates itself because so many people have used 5.56x45mm FMJ in the military, and assume that all .223/5.56 acts the same as NATO FMJ, which it does not.
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THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
We're not talking about hopped up .22's like the 5.56
The thread is discussing 7.62x39 which is a much more powerful round. Just Youtube it - you can see 7.62x39 FMJ's going through 36" of gel, and doing all sorts of lovely things to model houses, cars, plate steel, bricks, cinder blocks, etc.
The thread is discussing 7.62x39 which is a much more powerful round. Just Youtube it - you can see 7.62x39 FMJ's going through 36" of gel, and doing all sorts of lovely things to model houses, cars, plate steel, bricks, cinder blocks, etc.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Dark Knight, I was responding to a post about .223, and the contention that all centerfire rifles will overpenetrate, which is incorrect.
7.62x39mm isn't that much more powerful in terms of energy; what it does have is more momentum, and (most importantly) less fragile/more robust bullets, at least those available on the U.S. market, which is a bad thing when it comes to limiting penetration. Currently available 7.62x39mm JHP will generally destabilize and tumble in drywall, but will not fragment, and it is fragmentation that causes .223 JHP to penetrate so little drywall. Which is why I suggested that 7.62x39mm only be used in situations where you are backstopped by a brick exterior wall or otherwise.
We aren't talking about 7.62x39mm FMJ, though.
Win 123 gr JSP
Bare Gel: vel=2253 f/s, pen=14.4”, rd=0.56”, rw=90.1gr
WMC 124gr JHP (8M3/Sapsan):
Bare Gel: vel=2297 f/s, pen=15.0”, Max TC=10cm@18cm, RD=0.63”, RW=100.5gr"
rd2007
Member
I loved that article about the intruders and the AK and have little doubt that is how most cases would be. BG breaks in acting all tuff, gets an AK turned on him, and bolts like a little girl. They probably all wet their pants when they heard that unmistakeable 7.62x39 sound as well. My question is how did the guy miss every one of them? It is easy to squeeze off 5-10 shots in a very short amount of time.
ECVMatt
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benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I doubt a 158gr at 1000-1200 ft/sec would cycle an AK's action (Wolf's 154-grain softpoint hunting load runs close to 2000 ft/sec). You need a certain level of gas pressure behind the bullet for the action to cycle. And unless the bullet was quite fragile, it would still penetrate quite a bit, like a 158gr .357 or a 115gr 9mm, though you might could make it fragile enough to fragment.
I suspect that it might work to go in the other direction and drive a relatively fragile, low-sectional-density JHP at high velocity, say an 80-90gr JHP at 2800 ft/sec or so, with the aim of getting it to fragment in 1 or 2 sheets of drywall. The very low ballistic coefficient would also cause velocity to drop off fairly rapidly with distance, too.
You might could still cycle the action if you took "slow and heavy" to an extreme and went with a long 200 to 220 grain bullet in the transonic range, with a thinned jacket that it would yaw and split in drywall, but I don't think an AK barrel has a fast enough twist rate to stabilize a bullet that long.
I suspect that it might work to go in the other direction and drive a relatively fragile, low-sectional-density JHP at high velocity, say an 80-90gr JHP at 2800 ft/sec or so, with the aim of getting it to fragment in 1 or 2 sheets of drywall. The very low ballistic coefficient would also cause velocity to drop off fairly rapidly with distance, too.
You might could still cycle the action if you took "slow and heavy" to an extreme and went with a long 200 to 220 grain bullet in the transonic range, with a thinned jacket that it would yaw and split in drywall, but I don't think an AK barrel has a fast enough twist rate to stabilize a bullet that long.
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armoredman
Member
I am hoping to try the Doubletap 123gr defensive round.
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