Self defence, Power VS accuracy

[Walt Sherrill]

The Vector CP1 was recalled, and there are darned few of them in the U.S... It's more a collector's gun now, at least here, than a self-defense gun (particularly given the "safety" issues that prompted it's recall. It look fancy and modern, but I've not read much about it that says it's superior in any other respect.

The idea with self-defense handgun use is to STOP the aggressor. While a .22 CAN stop an aggressor, it is likely to do so only with the most optimal of shot placements. And most self-defense situations may not give you the time to really place your shots well.

I don't think I'd even consider a .22 handgun for self defense if I had any other options. In some cases as .22 would certainly be better than a pointed stick, but I'm not sure that a pointed stick (ala Monty Python) if it's stout and sharp, or even a baseball bat, wouldn't able to inflict as much or more damage in closer quarter combat.

A 9mm is more likely to get an aggressor's attention, if he or she is up close and personal, and most self-defense situations tend to end up that way.

I would suggest selling the Vector and getting something like a .38 Special Revolver, or a Glock, or a CZ; even a surplus CZ-82 would be more effective than a .22 in nearly all situations. You might be able to work a trade, etc.

And then PRACTICE!!

 

[JAshley73]

For self defense? Why do you need surgical precision anyway? I'd gladly trade surgically-precise, tack-driving accuracy from a weaker round, for a boxer's punch to the center mass, every time for a real life self defense situations. Considering that a majority of self defense shooting occur at bad breath distance, I see little need for superb accuracy. I just want a center-mass hit. Better yet, a few of them.

I know he doesn't have much support on these forums, but Tactical Response's James Yeager make a good point I one of his YouTube videos. (I do not want this conversation to take a turn with Yeager-bashing...) He presents that there is a difference between lethality, and incapacitation, then references the 86' Miami Shootout. He mentions how one of the perpetrators was hit by a round tha nicked his Aorta - a fatal wound that would cause the suspect to bleed out, but slowly.

Then he concedes that yes, a .22lr round is capable of a lethal wound. And then drives home the point, that while the suspect is dying, HE IS BEATING YOU TO DEATH.

Is a hit with a .22 better than a miss with a 9mm? I guess, but in a real-world, real-time, live or die self defense scenario, I'm not so sure. I think there's no disputing that with 1-4 shots between a .22lr and a 9mm, the 9mm will be the better fight stopper.

Like others have suggested, if you cannot shoot a 9mm pistol with reasonable accuracy, at short distances typical of self defense situations, then training is the only real solution.

 

[Hunter2011]

Hunter2011, I sense some disparity in your statements. You are a good shooter, but can't shoot 9mm? Are you physically handicapped in some manner? 9mm is not a difficult round to shoot, even for less than good shooters.

If training and practice will not improve your shooting such that you can shoot 9mm accurate, then there is something wrong with you. It may just be a mental block, but there is no reason to believe that you are so good that practice and training won't help you to improve, yet you can't shoot 9mm very well.

Sell the Vector and get a better pistol. Even if you can shoot .22 better right now, .22 lr is not a good defensive cartridge, not just because of the small caliber and lack of power, but because of the less than reliable rimfire ignition system.

Am I handicapped? Do I sound retarded? Sorry I just had too, your statement made me laugh.
I can shoot a 9mm just fine. I shot with a G19 of a friend on the same session as with my Vector on the range. I can shoot very well with the G19. So the 9mm does not give me a mental block or scare me or hurt my handicapped hands. My Vector just are not a G19, point.

Hanzo581 in post 17 understood my question very well. Its a simple question.

Point is I keep on getting good suggestions and sound advice. But nobody answers my question.... I said lets say I can't get something else, why suggest a shotgun? I'm ''stuck'' with either the .22 or the 9mm. I don't talk about carrying it either, it will be used for home defense. So the question remains
What is better, a super accurate .22 or a crappy 9mm that might score a hit or two in non vital areas?

 

[Hunter2011]

For self defense? Why do you need surgical precision anyway? I'd gladly trade surgically-precise, tack-driving accuracy from a weaker round, for a boxer's punch to the center mass, every time for a real life self defense situations. Considering that a majority of self defense shooting occur at bad breath distance, I see little need for superb accuracy. I just want a center-mass hit. Better yet, a few of them.

I know he doesn't have much support on these forums, but Tactical Response's James Yeager make a good point I one of his YouTube videos. (I do not want this conversation to take a turn with Yeager-bashing...) He presents that there is a difference between lethality, and incapacitation, then references the 86' Miami Shootout. He mentions how one of the perpetrators was hit by a round tha nicked his Aorta - a fatal wound that would cause the suspect to bleed out, but slowly.

Then he concedes that yes, a .22lr round is capable of a lethal wound. And then drives home the point, that while the suspect is dying, HE IS BEATING YOU TO DEATH.

Is a hit with a .22 better than a miss with a 9mm? I guess, but in a real-world, real-time, live or die self defense scenario, I'm not so sure. I think there's no disputing that with 1-4 shots between a .22lr and a 9mm, the 9mm will be the better fight stopper.

Like others have suggested, if you cannot shoot a 9mm pistol with reasonable accuracy, at short distances typical of self defense situations, then training is the only real solution.

I get what you are saying and it makes sense. You don't need perfect shot placement. As long as you hit center mass. But then it must be with something better than .22. So 5 shots with a 9mm any where in the chest or stomach area is better than 5 shots with a .22 in the chest that can be covered by a golf ball?

 

[Bobson]

Hanzo understood my queetion well.

Wow, you guys are having a tough time keeping answers within the question of his post. He's asking a pretty basic question.

Would you take a lesser powerful gun (.22) you are more accurate with over a more powerful gun (9mm) you are less accurate with. He's not asking if you shoot your 9mm accurately or if you were a .22 bullseye shooter.

"More accurate" is too relative a term to answer the question. Personally, I would have to be a pretty damn awful shot with a 9 to choose a 22LR for SD/HD. The same goes for everyone else - its common sense. If the OP wants to be talked into using a 22 for defense, he came to the wrong place. Sell that Vector if its that bad (and it really sounds like it is, if minute-of-man is a struggle at SD ranges). That's downright abysmal. Any gun you shoot that poorly has to go.

Bottom line, if you could put an entire magazine into a basketball at 15 yards with your CP1, I would use that. If you can't, I would sell it - because you said any amount of training won't help. So get rid of it if you're so sure that its worthless to you.

So 5 shots with a 9mm any where in the chest or stomach area is better than 5 shots with a .22 in the chest that can be covered by a golf ball?

Five shots with a 9 into a basketball is better than five shots with a 22 into a penny, IMO. Anytime you're defending yourself, you're not going to have the time or ability to "shoot the bear in the eye," as the kids say.

 

[Walt Sherrill]

And, to add to the issues -- .22 ammos (and many .22 handguns) have a tendency toward unreliability. You'll experience many more misfires and related problems with .22 ammo than with 9mm ammo.

While it's true that .22 ammos can be quite lethal, it's most effective when fired from a rifle at reasonable distances. That extra barrel length is needed to get the maximum effect from the ammo. Even .22 Magnum, when shot from short barrels, doesn't have the kind of force that would make it a good self-defense ammo.


.

 

[TarDevil]

What is better, a super accurate .22 or a crappy 9mm that might score a hit or two in non vital areas?

My choice would be a heavy blunt object over a .22, even an accurate one.

 

[jimbo555]

I would find a nice 380 that is accurate and softer recoiling than a 9mm. Like a sig p238. Small accurate and easily concealed.

 

[Cosmoline]

With the 9mm you really must do your best to even hit a human sized target.

If we're talking the usual 10 yard range, then that pistol has some major defects, and shouldn't be shot at all.

 

[tipoc]

From Hunter2011:

Point is I keep on getting good suggestions and sound advice. But nobody answers my question.... I said lets say I can't get something else, why suggest a shotgun? I'm ''stuck'' with either the .22 or the 9mm. I don't talk about carrying it either, it will be used for home defense. So the question remains
What is better, a super accurate .22 or a crappy 9mm that might score a hit or two in non vital areas?

Use the .22. But I suspect that is the answer you expected and wanted. No other makes sense.

If you have 2 guns and shoot one well and the other you do not shoot well, then defend yourself with the one you shoot best and that you have most confidence that you can handle well...but keep the 9mm close by.

As soon as you can replace the Vektor. A good part of your troubles with the 9mm are likely due to that gun.

The 9mm is a very pleasant round to shoot and there are many accurate guns made for it. The Vector is not one from what I know. There is no reason a fella can't become as proficient with a 9mm as with a .22 if they are in good health have a good gun and their expectations are reasonable.

tipoc

 

[Ogre One]

I personally like my Taurus Judge which I keep loaded with three shells and two HP. Mine also has a small rail below which I mounted a laser. My family - wife, and son and daughter (both of which are just shy of 20) - know where it is and how to use it if need be. The laser is mainly for my wife because she says she personally does not like guns, but does know how to use one. All she has to do is follow the little red dot and at about 20 feet (nominal closing distance inside the house) it is spot on.

 

[MarshallDodge]

A good friend, who is a shooter and a cardiologist, recently recounted an emergency room story. They had a patient come to the emergency room that had been shoot with a 22LR and was bleeding internally. The staff was having a hard time figuring out where he was losing blood and finally discovered two tiny holes in his heart. A gifted surgeon was able to patch the holes and the patient lived to tell about the experience.

Years ago there was a documented story of guy that was shot through his aorta with a 45. Knowing he had been shot, he took off running, and made it over 100 yards before collapsing dead.

You want to stop something right now? Destroy the Central Nervous System, otherwise you are just making leaks. Choose something that penetrates well and will create as much damage as possible on its way through.

 

[ETXhiker]

Hunter2011, is the reason you can't get a better pistol for defense because you are in South Africa?

 

[JTQ]

You should pick the .22. You've convinced yourself you'll never shoot the 9MM well enough for your personal standards. Pick the .22 and take your chances.

Me, I'm never picking a .22 for a defensive handgun, unless it is the only thing I have. I'll take my chances with the 9MM.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Quote:
With the 9mm you really must do your best to even hit a human sized target.

If we're talking the usual 10 yard range, then that pistol has some major defects, and shouldn't be shot at all.

yep

 

[F-111 John]

I wouldn't try to equate my shooting ability while calmly aiming at a paper target with my shooting ability while a crazy man is screaming obscenities at me and trying to do me harm.

Even if I did shoot the .22LR better than the 9mm at the range, I'd still rather carry the 9mm.

 

[Deaf Smith]

I do want to ask this question, despite the fact it may turn out to be a caliber war. Please no fighting, just honest answers and opinions.

Lets say you have only two handguns. One 9mm and one .22 target pistol. We all know the 9mm has more than 400% the power of the .22. That is an undisputed fact and you can never asume that they are equaly effective.

With the 9mm you really must do your best to even hit a human sized target. So headshots and heart shots will only happen with a lucky shot. With your 22 target pistol, you can really bassically choose where the bullet must hit. Lets say you can handle the stress for arguments sake and will connect where you aim.
Which of the two is the better option for the person who does not want to buy a new 9mm that can actually shoot just about as accurate as the .22?

With the lack of .22 ammo now days for practice I'd pick the 9mm.

Deaf

 

[Sam1911]

The question seems so very flawed. This is not an either/or thing. I would not rely on a .22 for defensive purposes unless I had no other firearm choice.

You CAN shoot a 9mm effectively. Period. My 11-year-old daughter can do it, safely and surely.

If you have a .22 and a 9mm, choosing to use the .22 because you just can't shoot the 9mm well is like cutting off your foot because your sock has a hole in it. Yeah...that's ONE solution, but not a GOOD one. There are better solutions. Seek training, learn to shoot well, in a defensive setting.

 

[481]

I do want to ask this question, despite the fact it may turn out to be a caliber war. Please no fighting, just honest answers and opinions.

Lets say you have only two handguns. One 9mm and one .22 target pistol. We all know the 9mm has more than 400% the power of the .22. That is an undisputed fact and you can never asume that they are equaly effective.

The 9mm may have 4x the KE of a .22, but that is about all that can be said of the situation. Neither can be said to be more effective than the other because without knowing what they hit (or miss)...

With the 9mm you really must do your best to even hit a human sized target. So headshots and heart shots will only happen with a lucky shot. With your 22 target pistol, you can really bassically choose where the bullet must hit.

Your assumption that, "headshots and heart shots will only happen with a lucky shot" and "With your 22 target pistol, you can really bassically choose where the bullet must hit" is based upon what evidence? Is there some evidence that the 9mm cartirdge is inherently less accurate than the .22LR?

Lets say you can handle the stress for arguments sake and will connect where you aim.

That's a HUGE assumption and likely not true for a great many people.

Which of the two is the better option for the person who does not want to buy a new 9mm that can actually shoot just about as accurate as the .22?

Neither. The one that is "better" is the one that you have trained and become competent with to the point that you can at least make a decent account of yourself should you need to.

Simply put, your question begs for an "equipment" answer where a "training and mindset" answer serves better.

 

[fatmanonabike]

You can't miss well enough to make it count. Go with the .22 sometimes you just need to change their mind. OTOH, I think almost universally we like to see you shoot comfortably well with anything that has more power.

 

[David E]

I have a Vector CP1. In my hands, not accurate at all.

Try a different gun or educate/train your hands better.

I once shot a skinned sheep.

Wasn't it already dead?

But if a airgun, and not a powerfull one at that, can penetrate 2 ribs of a sheep, will a .22 not do the same to human ribs that is in attacking mode?

Sure, but you don't get the luxury of making body hits with a .22 if you're wanting to stop the aggressor right now.

I do know that even if it does penetrate it still won't stop the attacker in his tracks like a bigger caliber might do, but still.

"but still" what? You're answering your own questions in each post, you just don't realize it.

 

[Zaydok Allen]

Is your problem with 9mm just that you don't shoot your particular 9mm well or a problem with the cartridge itself?

 

[Trunk Monkey]

What is better, a super accurate .22 or a crappy 9mm that might score a hit or two in non vital areas?

The OP has asked a loaded question; given the conditions he imposed the only legitimate answer is the .22.

Having said that, I also understand why the OP seems annoyed. He asked a very specific question and he stated very specific parameters “I have two guns, one is a 9mm that doesn’t shoot well one is a .22 that shoots very well (paraphrase)” “I am not able to purchase another gun right now; I am stuck with only these two choices.” “Of the only two choices I have, which should I pick?”

He then gets two pages worth of “Buy another gun”. I’d be upset too.

 

[OptimusPrime]

Your question: what is better?
Answer: crappy 9mm > super-accurate .22

Not the answer you want to hear, but there it is.
Get better at shooting the 9mm.

 

[Sam1911]

He then gets two pages worth of “Buy another gun”. I’d be upset too.

And a few which were more appropriate: Get help, get training, and practice. Unless there's something physically wrong with the pistol, he CAN shoot it sufficiently well to close any perceived gap between it and the .22.