Shipping a gun. Should USPS/UPS know its a gun?
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Car Knocker
Member
Zundfolge,
If you read the codes cited, you will see that the FAQ is a broad oversimplification and is inaccurate. Notification is not ALWAYS required when shipping via contract or common carrier.
If you read the codes cited, you will see that the FAQ is a broad oversimplification and is inaccurate. Notification is not ALWAYS required when shipping via contract or common carrier.
You're worried the ATF is going to be at your door because you followed US law but broken UPS company policy...?
I'm not sure that I agree with you there. Most manufacturers will warn you to not put the company name on the box just because it increases the chance of theft if they know whats inside. I kind of like the idea of my $800 package getting lost in a sea of boxes with vintage table lamps off ebay, funny shirts, cookies from mom, and martial aids from california...kind of like not flashing your wallets contents at the checkout line. Ymmv but I feel no obligation to tell people the contents of my mail, letters or packages, unless its hazmat.
RNB65
Member
I've said it before and I'll say it again -- What the BATFE says in their FAQ contradicts what is said in 18 U.S.C. 922 and 27 CFR 478.31. The BATFE says what they want you to believe, not what the law says.
Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any case law to see how the courts have ruled on this issue. Maybe someone with better legal research skills can do a search for court rulings on this issue.
mek42
Member
Would it be possible to pay a little extra and let your friendly local FFL ship it for you? My local FFL ships firearms for a modest fee. If I recall correctly the fee is either waived or actual shipping costs only if it is a firearm purchased from him being sent to the factory, but that's one of the reasons I keep going back to this particular store.
No he's not worried about the ATF coming at him, instead he's worried about UPS sending your firearm to the ATF for attempting to send an item possibly illegally.
Your advice is good, but you still have to tell the counter agent at the facility that you dropped them off at it contains a firearm. The shipper will make sure that you are following company policy and prevent possible problems. Similar to when you receive ammo from an internet company.
There is no reason not to tell the shipping company that the package contains a firearm if you intend to ship it within company rules. Also by following company rules is the only way that you can get an insurance check if the package is lost of stolen.
The only time you would not tell the shipper that you are shipping a firearm is if you want to be a cheap skate and not ship it via Next Day Air via Fedex or UPS (if you are an FFL). By Federal Law you must tell the USPS that you are shipping a firearm. It's the law and you could end up in prison.
Powderman
Member
Ladies and gentlemen:
I will stay on the High Road and not say what I am thinking.
I will, however, post the truth of the matter.
Regarding private parties/individuals:
You MAY ship firearms to factories/gunsmiths for repair. If the same firearm is repaired and replaced, it can be returned directly to you. If the firearm is unserviceable, and a new serial number is issued, it must be transferred to you through an FFL as a new transaction.
You MAY ship handguns and long guns via FedEx or UPS. How they get there is a matter of company policy. Both services, AFAIK, require overnight transport of handguns.
You MAY ship long guns via the US Postal Service. They must be sealed in a tamper evident type of tape (available at the Post Office) and must be shipped Certified Mail.
You May NOT ship handguns through the US Mail TO DO SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.
You may NOT ship a firearm to a non-licensee. TO DO SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.
You MUST declare that the item you are shipping is a firearm. TO SHIP A FIREARM WITHOUT DOING SO IS A FEDERAL CRIME.
To the original poster: congratulations. You just admitted that you have committed a Federal felony-level offense in a public forum. I hope you get arrested.
Call me a JBT, a tail-light chaser, whatever! I don't give a rip--I am a Sworn Officer, and some of you folks need to wake up and smell the coffee! If you are going to do something ILLEGAL, that's your business--but keep it to yourself, please! I REALLY don't want to read about your Criminal Stupidity.
Have a nice sentence, felon.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Soybomb--what I was getting at
You're worried the ATF is going to be at your door because you followed US law but broken UPS company policy...?
No--not what I was getting at. No big secret (on my part)--I was a manager at FedEx for several years. If you don't declare the contents up front you will limit the potential liability (on Fed-Ex's part) to being $100.00. They will also likely become upset if they have reason to open the box somewhere in transit and it will become a security issue. They would probably just call you, but they may decide to do otherwise if they felt you were up to something by virtue of the fact that you didn't tell them what was in the box. In this case, the gun's value will be only 100.00 if it goes missing. And that's it.
People get nervous about what is in those boxes. By placing it in their hands, it does become their business. Fedex will ship almost ANYTHING for a price if you tell them up front. Let it be ID'd as a gun at the point of shipping and it will be more secure before it enters the sea of boxes (which it will). It won't say 'gun' in big read letters--but it will be less of an internal theft tempatation (if that's a concern of yours) because the Fedex Overbrain will know that it is responsible for that $800.00 weapon and act accordingly.
Just my thoughts on it. It helps if you find a 'go-to' Fedex person you trust where you ship from to make things easier.
You're worried the ATF is going to be at your door because you followed US law but broken UPS company policy...?
No--not what I was getting at. No big secret (on my part)--I was a manager at FedEx for several years. If you don't declare the contents up front you will limit the potential liability (on Fed-Ex's part) to being $100.00. They will also likely become upset if they have reason to open the box somewhere in transit and it will become a security issue. They would probably just call you, but they may decide to do otherwise if they felt you were up to something by virtue of the fact that you didn't tell them what was in the box. In this case, the gun's value will be only 100.00 if it goes missing. And that's it.
People get nervous about what is in those boxes. By placing it in their hands, it does become their business. Fedex will ship almost ANYTHING for a price if you tell them up front. Let it be ID'd as a gun at the point of shipping and it will be more secure before it enters the sea of boxes (which it will). It won't say 'gun' in big read letters--but it will be less of an internal theft tempatation (if that's a concern of yours) because the Fedex Overbrain will know that it is responsible for that $800.00 weapon and act accordingly.
Just my thoughts on it. It helps if you find a 'go-to' Fedex person you trust where you ship from to make things easier.
carnaby
Member
Powderman, isn't there an exception to shipping out of state to a non-licensee if that non-licensee is yourself and you own the firearm in question?
You can also ship a rifle or shotgun to any non-licensee IN YOUR OWN STATE who may legally own that rifle or shotgun, provided your particular state doesn't outlaw that sort of thing, IIRC.
You can also ship a rifle or shotgun to any non-licensee IN YOUR OWN STATE who may legally own that rifle or shotgun, provided your particular state doesn't outlaw that sort of thing, IIRC.
Futuristic
Member
Some Misinformation
Powderman wrote:
The first item is wrong, in the context that you MAY ship to a Non-Licensee ONLY under very limited circumstances. See here, from the BATFE Firearms FAQs:
The second item is wrong, in that the actual US Code clearly states that you MUST notify the Carrier that there is a Firearm in the package being shippped, ONLY if you are shipping to a Non-Licensee. If you are shipping to a Licensee of any sort, then you DO NOT have to declare the firearm to the carrier. This is legal, but as others have pointed out, not particularly wise. You would forego most Insurance coverage, and the carrier might be miffed if they detected the undeclared firearm. Note the RED text in the quote above from the BATFE Firearms FAQs is wrong, or at least incomplete.
Note that the USPS has some regulations which may or may not clearly make it a crime to fail to inform them that a package in the mail contains a Long Gun. (I'm still looking for a clear cite on the latest regulations on this point, if anyone can help!)
For grins, here is the relevant US Code cite for the Not Having to Declare stuff:
18 USC 922 (e):
Futuristic
Powderman wrote:
The first item is wrong, in the context that you MAY ship to a Non-Licensee ONLY under very limited circumstances. See here, from the BATFE Firearms FAQs:
The second item is wrong, in that the actual US Code clearly states that you MUST notify the Carrier that there is a Firearm in the package being shippped, ONLY if you are shipping to a Non-Licensee. If you are shipping to a Licensee of any sort, then you DO NOT have to declare the firearm to the carrier. This is legal, but as others have pointed out, not particularly wise. You would forego most Insurance coverage, and the carrier might be miffed if they detected the undeclared firearm. Note the RED text in the quote above from the BATFE Firearms FAQs is wrong, or at least incomplete.
Note that the USPS has some regulations which may or may not clearly make it a crime to fail to inform them that a package in the mail contains a Long Gun. (I'm still looking for a clear cite on the latest regulations on this point, if anyone can help!)
For grins, here is the relevant US Code cite for the Not Having to Declare stuff:
18 USC 922 (e):
Futuristic
Autolycus
Member
See Zundfolge's post above yours. It is the law that you have to notify them what you are shipping is a firearm.
RNB65
Member
Tecumseh,
Cite, please. Not the BATFE FAQ. Please show me in the US Code/CFR where the law requires the carrier to be notified (UPS/FEDEX. I know that shipping by USPS requires an FFL.).
Mr. Sworn Officer, before telling people what they're doing is illegal and admonishing them for their bad behavior, would you kindly cite the law they're breaking in not notifying UPS/feded that its gun they're shipping to a FFL?
I'll get started with a letter from the ATF that cites the relevant code and confirms the legality of it. http://cyber-byte.com/photos/atf.jpg
Here's a link to a copy of the code itself http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00000922----000-.html
I'd love to see you say that perhaps you were using your LEO status to give yourself credibility in an area of law that you weren't familiar with and retract your previous "supidity" comments, or be proven wrong myself. THR has a problem with threads turning into cop bashing sometimes and I never think thats a good thing, but keep in mind things like this are what reflect negatively on your profession. I really think you're trying to encourage people to do the right there here and thats commendable, but I think you need to know the law you're going to tell people they're violating.
Powderman
Member
While I understand the reply, Soybomb, I only go by what I have learned. This is what I have learned:
"May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?"
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
The quote and cite is direct from www.atf.gov, in their FAQ section.
You go ahead and argue with BATFE if you wish. I won't.
And, I'm sorry--but stating that you have committed an illegal act in a public forum is STUPID for a number of reasons. First reason: why give those who wish to take our freedoms away any more ammunition than they have?
Second reason: Declaring that you break the law with impunity in this manner is the same as wearing pork-chop drawers and wrestling with a hungry tiger. Not very smart.
I stand by my previous post. There were some clarifications made concerning shipping firearms to yourself, or in care of another person, to yourself, and shipping within State lines.
"May a nonlicensee ship a firearm by common or contract carrier?"
A nonlicensee may ship a firearm by a common or contract carrier to a resident of his or her own State or to a licensee in any State. A common or contract carrier must be used to ship a handgun. In addition, Federal law requires that the carrier be notified that the shipment contains a firearm and prohibits common or contract carriers from requiring or causing any label to be placed on any package indicating that it contains a firearm.
[18 U.S.C. 922(a)(2)(A), 922(a) (3), 922(a)(5) and 922(e), 27 CFR 478.31 and 478.30]
The quote and cite is direct from www.atf.gov, in their FAQ section.
You go ahead and argue with BATFE if you wish. I won't.
And, I'm sorry--but stating that you have committed an illegal act in a public forum is STUPID for a number of reasons. First reason: why give those who wish to take our freedoms away any more ammunition than they have?
Second reason: Declaring that you break the law with impunity in this manner is the same as wearing pork-chop drawers and wrestling with a hungry tiger. Not very smart.
I stand by my previous post. There were some clarifications made concerning shipping firearms to yourself, or in care of another person, to yourself, and shipping within State lines.
gudel
Member
lots of mumbo jumbo here, quite useless and impractical.
so the bottom line is,
how do they know if it's a gun inside the box, do they check?
so the bottom line is,
how do they know if it's a gun inside the box, do they check?
Oh now come on, you're a LEO, you don't bring people in on FAQ charges, you probably have a specific law to charge them with violation of if you're going to arrest them. Thats what I'm asking you for. Both the ATF faq and I have provided the relevant portions of the USC for you to read. I've provided a letter from the ATF that elaborates more on that code than the 1 line faq. Don't "cop out" and say thats all I know, put the leg work into this and learn something new. I've given you the means to learn something new, you don't have to search for the code of the ATF letter, I've provided a link to them both.
I think if you're going to tell people they're stupid and doing something illegal, you at least owe them the courtesy of reading the actual law if your opinion is challenged.
Powderman
Member
Me? Arrest? Nah. Not applicable.
First, I have no way to follow someone onto Federal property and demand to examine a package. Post offices are WAY out of my jurisdiction.
I have no reasonable suspicion--much less probable cause--to demand to see the contents of a package. And even if I did know that this was happening, try convincing a judge--with the many violations of your rights that would occur if I DID try it.
No, the knock on the door will come from your friendly .gov LEO--who will probably get REAL curious when your box of "machine parts" breaks open to reveal a handgun.
As for the applicable law, look at the bottom of the post I just made. That is the section of Title 18--Crimes and Procedures--that the offender will be prosecuted under.
In short, ATF made it easy for you. They WARN you that it is illegal, and tell you EXACTLY what applicable statute they will prosecute you under. Go ahead and violate it if you wish. You will be standing up in the courtroom yelling about the sundry provisions of law that sometimes is so convoluted that even attorneys can't figure it out. In the mean time, ATF will continue their case, the offender will more than likely be found guilty, you will be convicted of a Federal firearms related crime, and you will go to prison.
You will also lose all of your guns, your livelihood and your money (which will go to various attorneys who will lose your appeals in quick succession), and your life will be ruined.
Oh, of course, you could get your civil rights restored. While I have heard of it happening, I do not know of ONE SINGLE PERSON that has had success with this maneuver.
And, after all of this is over, and you're telling your family what happened, I bet that you'll say, "Gee, if I had only spent the $45.00 to ship the thing overnight and declared it."
I guess some folks just HAVE to run into the brick wall, eh?
NOTE: This was NOT directed at you Soybomb--but was a general statement against the general attitude I see in some of the posters here.
First, I have no way to follow someone onto Federal property and demand to examine a package. Post offices are WAY out of my jurisdiction.
I have no reasonable suspicion--much less probable cause--to demand to see the contents of a package. And even if I did know that this was happening, try convincing a judge--with the many violations of your rights that would occur if I DID try it.
No, the knock on the door will come from your friendly .gov LEO--who will probably get REAL curious when your box of "machine parts" breaks open to reveal a handgun.
As for the applicable law, look at the bottom of the post I just made. That is the section of Title 18--Crimes and Procedures--that the offender will be prosecuted under.
In short, ATF made it easy for you. They WARN you that it is illegal, and tell you EXACTLY what applicable statute they will prosecute you under. Go ahead and violate it if you wish. You will be standing up in the courtroom yelling about the sundry provisions of law that sometimes is so convoluted that even attorneys can't figure it out. In the mean time, ATF will continue their case, the offender will more than likely be found guilty, you will be convicted of a Federal firearms related crime, and you will go to prison.
You will also lose all of your guns, your livelihood and your money (which will go to various attorneys who will lose your appeals in quick succession), and your life will be ruined.
Oh, of course, you could get your civil rights restored. While I have heard of it happening, I do not know of ONE SINGLE PERSON that has had success with this maneuver.
And, after all of this is over, and you're telling your family what happened, I bet that you'll say, "Gee, if I had only spent the $45.00 to ship the thing overnight and declared it."
I guess some folks just HAVE to run into the brick wall, eh?
NOTE: This was NOT directed at you Soybomb--but was a general statement against the general attitude I see in some of the posters here.
10 Ring Tao
Member
Do you people read threads at all, or just post willy nilly? It has been explained at least twice, in detail, why the FAQ on the ATF site is wrong.
And see the post just above yours.
As for the cop pretending to be a lawyer/judge, your job is to enforce the law, not interpret it. The advice you've given here is a wonderful example of why. You took a very superficial explanation of the law, and espoused it as the whole truth. In reality, the entire text of the law says specifically that you only have to tell the common carrier (USPS excluded) if you are shipping to a non-licensee.
tecumseh said:
And see the post just above yours.
As for the cop pretending to be a lawyer/judge, your job is to enforce the law, not interpret it. The advice you've given here is a wonderful example of why. You took a very superficial explanation of the law, and espoused it as the whole truth. In reality, the entire text of the law says specifically that you only have to tell the common carrier (USPS excluded) if you are shipping to a non-licensee.
Powderman
Member
Absolutely!!! You, sir (or ma'am) are spot on!
ATF is WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
Why, they don't even know what they write on their own website!
Tell you what...
Why doesn't some brave High Roader here stand up for a grand experiment?
Go ship a firearm without declaring it. Go ahead. Ask the terminal to hold it for pickup.
When you go there, notify your local ATF office to come with you to the terminal. There, pick up and sign for the firearm. Turn to the ATF agent with the gun in the package, and inform them that you just shipped it without declaring it. Watch what happens.
Better yet, take them with you when you SHIP it! That ought to be fun!
Any takers?
ATF is WRONG! WRONG! WRONG!
Why, they don't even know what they write on their own website!
Tell you what...
Why doesn't some brave High Roader here stand up for a grand experiment?
Go ship a firearm without declaring it. Go ahead. Ask the terminal to hold it for pickup.
When you go there, notify your local ATF office to come with you to the terminal. There, pick up and sign for the firearm. Turn to the ATF agent with the gun in the package, and inform them that you just shipped it without declaring it. Watch what happens.
Better yet, take them with you when you SHIP it! That ought to be fun!
Any takers?
rhinov
Member
In August of 2006 I tried to ship a handgun back to the manufacturer for repair. I was told by both fed-ex and UPS that I could not ship a handgun. That it had to be sent by an FFL to the manufacturer and had to be returned to the FFL. The FFL told me that they had to have a UPS rep come out check the place of bussiness and they had to sign some kind of contract before they could ship handguns thru UPS. It was really a hassle but I was left with no alternative. It was not just one dealer that told me this. I had to go to three differant FFL's before I found one who could ship with UPS. The first two said the same thing , they did not have contracts with UPS to ship. This was my experiance for what it is worth. I dont know about long guns but I would pay the fee and have an FFL ship just to be on the safe side.
skinnyguy
Member
I will be having a rifle that I own, but my ex-wife has custody of shipped from PA to UT sometime soon. I plan on contacting UPS, USPS, and FedEx DIRECTLY to find out what they require to LEGALLY make the transfer. The shipper knows what laws apply to them, and how to comply with those laws, and to help me comply, so I am not in unknowing violation of any law, whether Constitutional or not, whether one law says YOU CAN, and another says YOU CAN'T.
I'm remembering a t-shirt I seen once;
Somehow, I just don't see where my rifle, no matter how much sentimental value it has to me, is worth it. I'm going where I can get info I can trust.
I'm remembering a t-shirt I seen once;
o
This is your ass
O
This is your ass in prison
Any questions?
This is your ass
O
This is your ass in prison
Any questions?
Somehow, I just don't see where my rifle, no matter how much sentimental value it has to me, is worth it. I'm going where I can get info I can trust.
its not entirely uncommon for the person at the UPS counter (mind you we're talking about a hub, not the UPS place in the mall) to not be experienced with firearms. Most people have pretty good luck asking the UPS person to pull out their guide book and look up firearms, or to call for a supervisor. You might also print and bring their company policies with you in the future. http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html
For what its worth the people at my UPS hub have always been polite and professional when I have chosen to declare that I'm shipping a handgun. The ask me if its going to a dealer or manufacturer and take it without hassle.
Dr. Dickie
Member
Boy this has been done so many times that it is getting ridiculous. We need a sticky.
The federal law says that you do not have to notify the carrier if shipping to an FFL:
As has been posted about 1000 times. Also, someone wrote to the ATF and verified this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2947738&postcount=9
HOWEVER, the carriers DO require that you notify them. As far as I know, they do not charge more if you notify them that it is a firearm, so what-the-heck. Yeah, I know it grates you to have to declare it like we are in grade school, but some things just are not worth fighting over.
The federal law says that you do not have to notify the carrier if shipping to an FFL:
As has been posted about 1000 times. Also, someone wrote to the ATF and verified this:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2947738&postcount=9
HOWEVER, the carriers DO require that you notify them. As far as I know, they do not charge more if you notify them that it is a firearm, so what-the-heck. Yeah, I know it grates you to have to declare it like we are in grade school, but some things just are not worth fighting over.
Neo-Luddite
Member
Rhinov
There is an incredible lack of knowledge at the shipping counter about whether or not a non-FFL can ship a firearm under the company policy(they can, under certain conditions, but no one believes it or knows it). Most nodal points don't see weapons very often. Pulling out a copy of your FFL (even a type 3) will make everyone happier right away. Whether it is a C/R gun or not won't even matter to the carrier--they will be satisfied and you'll speed things along. For 30 bucks it does confer some defacto status in the private sector if you're not a type 1 actual dealer, etc.
Or get the manager up front.
Dr. Dickie:
As far as I know, they do not charge more if you notify them that it is a firearm
FedEx will charge a bit (on anything) for the declared value. If you state the thing is worth over $500.00 they will ask to open and verify contents in front of you at the counter (this is also why the machine parts things doesn't work if it gets lost somehow or stolen).
You can't claim value of over 500 without doing this.
There is no 'up charge' for the fact it is a gun but there is for the value like on any other comodity. It isn't that much.
There is an incredible lack of knowledge at the shipping counter about whether or not a non-FFL can ship a firearm under the company policy(they can, under certain conditions, but no one believes it or knows it). Most nodal points don't see weapons very often. Pulling out a copy of your FFL (even a type 3) will make everyone happier right away. Whether it is a C/R gun or not won't even matter to the carrier--they will be satisfied and you'll speed things along. For 30 bucks it does confer some defacto status in the private sector if you're not a type 1 actual dealer, etc.
Or get the manager up front.
Dr. Dickie:
As far as I know, they do not charge more if you notify them that it is a firearm
FedEx will charge a bit (on anything) for the declared value. If you state the thing is worth over $500.00 they will ask to open and verify contents in front of you at the counter (this is also why the machine parts things doesn't work if it gets lost somehow or stolen).
You can't claim value of over 500 without doing this.
There is no 'up charge' for the fact it is a gun but there is for the value like on any other comodity. It isn't that much.
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