Shotgun vs pistol.

[scaatylobo]

FYI to all posting the shotgun

Not that this is the be all and endall of this thread [ I know better ].

But please consider that those that do house clearing EVERY DAY [ LEO's ].

Do so with a HANDGUN 99% of the time.

Having been one for 26 years I can attest to the fact that opening doors and 'slicing the pie' is MUCH easier with a handgun.

I am of the opinion that I would LOVE a 12 bore to handle the op-for.

BUT,that dont make it the best choice.

btw,I taught Defensive Tactics for 22 years and that included the keeping of one's "tools" from a grab.

I was [ might still be ] pretty good as I TRAINED OFTEN as I taught all year.

How many of those that choose a long gun,actually train for a gun grab OFTEN ?.

I would love to see an honest answer.

To thine own self be true,I dont need to see a response as I already know how many dont do force on force at least once a year.

Pray you dont find out how good/bad yourself actually is.

 

[dayhiker]

Not that this is the be all and endall of this thread [ I know better ].

But please consider that those that do house clearing EVERY DAY [ LEO's ].

Do so with a HANDGUN 99% of the time.

Having been one for 26 years I can attest to the fact that opening doors and 'slicing the pie' is MUCH easier with a handgun.

I am of the opinion that I would LOVE a 12 bore to handle the op-for.

BUT,that dont make it the best choice.

First... I am not clearing my house. That is my dogs job.
I won't have to look for a bad guy, the screams will let me know were he is.


Second....yes I choose a 12 gauge. And trying to take it from my hands is an excellent way to get shot.

I was never a cop, or an instructor. But believe it or not you don't have to be to know how to defend your home.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I agree, I'm not going out looking for trouble, with either a handgun or a long gun. No opening doors, no slicing pies. LEOs do that for a living, sure - but I'm not a LEO.

Looking for trouble in the house is what 225 pounds or so of Brazilian mastiff are here to do.

I was taught while being trained in shotgun retention that anyone who tried to take a shotgun away from me was courting a new nickname - STUMPY.

 

[JohnKSa]

...a shotgun barrel poking thru the curtains...

Never poke your barrel into a place you can't see or around a corner. It lets your opponent know where you are before you can see him and, if he's close, it can allow him to grab the barrel and possibly neutralize your weapon.

 

[scaatylobo]

According to the OP

My posts are written due to the OP's start.

I am totally aware that house clearing is a HUGE no,no.

BUT ask around and see how many have "checked" their house with gun in hand,or after "hearing noises".

That can be called anything you like,but I call it house clearing.

And to the gentleman that posted "he can use the shotty up close" = I say NO WAY .

Unless you have done so,you have NO idea how or when.

If possible go to a class and ask a trained instructor to disarm you.

UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE THAT,your in the dark.

Or you can believe that I can do brain surgery,after all I really believe I can - wanna volunteer ?.

 

[dayhiker]

If possible go to a class and ask a trained instructor to disarm you.

UNTIL YOU HAVE DONE THAT,your in the dark.

Well I guess I am in the dark then. I have never paid a trained instructor to try and take my shotgun away.

I have pugil stick fighting experiance, bayonet training, and I currently practice with a cane on a heavy bag a few time a week.

So there is no way I could still retain my shotgun, I better sell it and get a handgun.

While I am at it I guess I need to send my dog to K-9 school. You see she has never been trained to clear houses.

 

[Kleanbore]

Posted by dayhiker: I have pugil stick fighting experiance, bayonet training, and I currently practice with a cane on a heavy bag a few time a week.

I'm not sure about the bayonet training, but being able to defend oneself with cane is a good thing.

But--if you ever have to do that in your house, something has gone terribly wrong with your plan.

So there is no way I could still retain my shotgun, I better sell it and get a handgun.

Assuming that your strategy is to let the threat come to you, I do not see retention as a very significant issue.

The real issue is whether you will be able to get to your firearm from wherever you happen to be in the house when one or more violent criminal actors suddenly enter from what ever points of ingress they choose.

While I am at it I guess I need to send my dog to K-9 school. You see she has never been trained to clear houses.

To each his own, but personally, I would not choose to put my dog at risk of being shot. Her job is complete when she raises the alarm.

 

[dayhiker]

I'm not sure about the bayonet training, but being able to defend oneself with cane is a good thing.

But--if you ever have to do that in your house, something has gone terribly wrong with your plan.

That is merely to address the assumption that a shotgun is easy to disarm.

Anyone who has been beaten about the head and body with a pugil stick would know that a long gun makes a decent two handed impact weapon.

The real issue is whether you will be able to get to your firearm from wherever you happen to be in the house when one or more violent criminal actors suddenly enter from what ever points of ingress they choose.

Yes ,my home is small. I have excellent doors, locks, reinforced frames at the strike plate. My home is of a raised style so ground floor windows are not easy to access quickly. My dog is an excellent early warning system.

To each his own, but personally, I would not choose to put my dog at risk of being shot. Her job is complete when she raises the alarm.

I do not choose to send her in harms way. She investigates every noise on her own. She is extremely protective .

 

[Owen Sparks]

There is an old military axiom which states "An entrenched soldier will cost you three lives." meaning that a soldier in a trench or behind a barricade has a three to one advantage over those trying to attack him. This is the principle to follow in home defense. Take low cover and let the bad guy come to you. If you are quiet and don't give away your position your chances of surviving are excellent. The bad guys first indication that you are there should be a blinding flash of light instantly followed by a shotgun blast. You really don't need a handgun or even a short barrel for this technique. Just a mounted light and a few rounds of #1 Buck. If your house needs to be cleared call the police, that is their job. Otherwise stay put and don't give the invader a chance.

 

[Rexster]

I am one of those LEOs everything keeps mentioning, though this does not make me an expert. I work night shift, for a big-city PD, and have cleared buildings with pistol, shotgun, and rifle. (Well, not all three at the same time.) Each weapon has its ideal role, and really, that is a big reason clearing a structure is best done by a team. In a team search, the shotgunner never needs to take his hands from the grip area and forearm of a long weapon.

There are ways to handle a shotgun in tight spaces, but all else being equal, the carbine and handgun are going to be easier to manage inside structures. The shotgun has a compressed lethal range*, compared to rifles and pistols, but a shotgun is certainly more instantly devastating to a nearby living target than most other weapons. I wish I could give credit, but I have long forgotten the source who said a shotgun "disassembles" people. Not just people; if I need to disassemble a door's lock and/or hinges in a hurry, a shotgun is the firearm that can do it. (Not that I am recommending breaching in the HD context, but I have been trained to do it, and if that one-in-a-billion scenario happens, well, there it is.)

So, let's say I needed to repel home invaders. Let's say that hardening entry points, if feasible, has been done. I wear a handgun just about anytime I am not sleeping or bathing, so the obvious answer to any scenario, and the answer to the OP's question, is "handgun+." Handgun plus shotgun, handgun plus rifle, handgun plus handgun. Any weapon can fail! My previously 100%-reliable P229R finally choked a few weeks ago. (It has run fine since then.) If I am going to actively engage in a fight, I want multiple weapons! I have handguns, a couple of Remington 870 shotguns, and a Mini-14 rifle ready to grab if needed, at this moment in time. My employer WANTS me to use handguns and shotguns, only, even on my own time, because I have aged-out of being able to run my employer's athletic, timed patrol rifle qual. (No, not weight; a bad knee. My duty belt is set on the same size as 28 years ago, but climbing up from prone, sitting, or kneeling is a problematic.) Every scenario is unique. If I have enough information, I will reach for the weapons deemed most appropriate for the particulars of the task, and the perceived threat level, and whether it is daylight or dark.

On weapon retention: I know, at my level of training, especially coupled with my above-mentioned wrist ailment, that I can retain a handgun better than a long weapon. I do want a long weapon available to me, but have to take weapon retention into account.

On handguns in/on nightstands: Yes, burglars do indeed look there! A nightstand is NOT a good place to leave a handgun if one is not present to monitor it.

Once again, I am not any kind of expert.

Another random thought: Among handguns, I like a 5" 1911, .45 ACP, for HD, because it is kinder to my ears and eyes than some other handguns if fired indoors. I may prefer revolvers for reactive self-defense, but for hunting people in tight spaces, the old 1911, the handgun of my youth, still has a place.

*"Compressed lethal range" means, in this case, projectiles passing though the air. Round pellets and blunt slugs lose velocity and fall to earth relatively quickly. Penetration through building materials is affected by other considerations. The classic .223/5.56 55-grain JSP, which has a much longer range through air, will actually penetrate less building materials than many types of handgun and shotgun ammo.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I need to send my dog to K-9 school. You see she has never been trained to clear houses.

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/filabrasileiro.htm

 

[mgkdrgn]

Well, I don't carry a shotgun ... but I do have a 45 Colt revolver in my pocket.

If that isn't enough to resolve the problem I'll go get the shotgun.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Scenarios
1. Bad guy comes to door your with ill intent.

If I'm not expecting anyone, I answer the door discreetly armed. It's become less discreet if I believe my family is threatened by the stranger.

2. You walk in the house with your kids while its getting robbed

Seriously, how condition white would someone have to be to not realize their house has become occupied?

I'd say more like arrive home and realize you've been broken into. Send wife and kids away, wait outside with concealment/cover and take pictures. If they've gotten in, they're now armed. Most of my guns are secured in a hardened room + safe, but there's always a rimfire or shotgun handy upstairs for wildlife issues.

3: You are in the house and bad guys break-in while you and kids are inside.

Unless he runs back out the door as quickly as his feet will carry him, he's going to be shot at. If it were just me, I might attempt to control the situation and avoid lethal force. But wife and kids at home? Not taking any chances. Breaking into an occupied dwelling makes one a threat to the occupants.

 

[Bubba613]

I've never fired a short 12 ga indoors, but I do know that I do not want to. Years ago a friend brought a Model 97 riot gun to the skeet range, and I found shooting next to him to be most unpleasant.

Many people do advise using ear protection in a home defense situation.

Auditory exclusion will take care of that problem. Reducing your perceptive ability in a critical situation sounds like really really bad advice.
Inside 6ft the shotgun is a liability. Going around corners the shotgun is a liability. If you need another hand for something, like a cell phone, the shotgun is a liability.
Assuming getting out isn't an option I'll take a heavy caliber revolver any day.

 

[scaatylobo]

BUT !

If I had the time and was under 'attack' and knew the threat was coming in my door - hell yea its the 870 that I shot while a working LEO.

I still do drills at the range and nothing can put 1 ounces of lead out that fast or accurate.

But the handgun is my first choice,and I dont think many actually have a 12 bore that handy.

I answer the door with the handgun as that is best at that close a quarter combat [ hallway into house ].

the 12 bore will not fit in there and I cannot open the door that way.

I agree with the LEO poster that mentions the 1911 as MUCH kinder to the ear under indoor fire combat.

As to auditory exclusion,yes but you might be deaf for the rest of your life.

for sure you will have done permanent damage to your hearing.

And surviving means getting away UNSCATHED.

I have a 870 that is set up just for 'social' uses and would LOVE to think it would be in hand during any home invasion.

BUT the handgun is THERE for sure.

I stand by my belief that you can be disarmed if your not WELL TRAINED.

I was a trainer,and had a good instructor disarm me AFTER warning me he was about to do so.

But if your better than I was [ I was younger than ] please ignore any warning and go for it.

 

[mooner]

And surviving means getting away UNSCATHED.

Surviving means surviving.

In my book, there is an awfully big difference between hearing loss and life loss. I wear hearing protection when I am planning to shoot. I would rather not handicap myself when it really matters. I realize that there are "hearing devices" that also protect your hearing. In my opinion, they add a level of complexity and is one more thing that can fail.

 

[LeonCarr]

1. Don't answer the door. If he/she/it comes in uninvited, use shotgun.

2. Exit house, call 911.

3. Use shotgun.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Owen Sparks]

I don't know about you but I don't open the door to strangers without identifying who they are and what they want.

 

[TonyDedo]

NEVER base your firearm choice on deterrence! Your gun is not to SCARE, it's to STOP. Never deploy a firearm unless you fully intend to use it.

That being said, if you have to deploy a firearm (i.e. avoidance and de-escalation has failed or is not an option), use the firearm you're most effective with. You should have a first option ready to go, no choice necessary.

Come to think of it, I hate the concept of people having multiple firearms to choose from in these situations. In a life-or-death situation, are you really going to stop and think to yourself, "Hmmm, I could get the j frame from the nightstand, or I could grab my Mossberg from the closet... But what about my GLOCK - I haven't shot that in a while, and I do hate the recoil from that revolver. Plus I don't want to damage my walls with the shotgun - we just painted. Speaking of walls, I read this article that said .223 overpenetrates the least. I wonder where my AR is... Do I have any magazines loaded?" Etc, etc...

No. Have a gun, one gun, know it, love it, be proficient with it, have it available, and go to it every time.

 

[huntsman]

^ you're spoiling their fun why everyone needs a truck gun house guns range guns..etc....etc.... and all the threads about which is the right tool for the job

 

[Manco]

Auditory exclusion will take care of that problem. Reducing your perceptive ability in a critical situation sounds like really really bad advice.

Some types of hearing protection allow you to hear very well while simultaneously providing effective protection. In addition, you'll be able to hear better after the first shots are fired since your hearing perception will not be reduced by auditory exclusion.

If you need another hand for something, like a cell phone, the shotgun is a liability.

Incidentally, that's why I decided to mount a weapon light on my pistol, despite the compromises involved. I still have a backup flashlight just in case, but by default I want my "weak" hand to be free.

Surviving means surviving.

Surviving at all is obviously the most important thing, but I wouldn't be so quick to throw quality of life completely out the window if I don't have to, as though my hearing were completely unworthy of consideration.

In my book, there is an awfully big difference between hearing loss and life loss.

That's true enough, but there is also a pretty decent difference between hearing loss and no hearing loss. If I have to lose some hearing (or gain some tinnitus) in order to save my life, then so be it, but if I could save my hearing at the same time, then why not?

I wear hearing protection when I am planning to shoot. I would rather not handicap myself when it really matters. I realize that there are "hearing devices" that also protect your hearing. In my opinion, they add a level of complexity and is one more thing that can fail.

If the electronics fail, then I'd remove the device. Also, if there is no time to don hearing protection, then I wouldn't bother. Otherwise, I think it gives me an advantage overall, not just in preserving my quality of life in the long run, but in allowing my hearing to function well throughout the engagement, even after shots have been fired.

 

[Ben86]

I keep a pistol in the nightstand, but have thought a shotgun is easier for a bad guy to see and might be more of a deterrent.

Your thoughts????

It sounds like you need to seek some professional training to better decide which is best for you and your current situation.

Don't put much faith in deterrence once the chips are down. Put your faith in sound tactics and frequent training.

 

[RX-178]

I will say also that in these situations you describe, you have ample time to avoid confrontation and call the authorities.

If there ARE circumstances that make this a chancy idea (rural property, very long police response times, what have you), then depending on how the situation unfolds, there may be a case to be made for dealing with the threat early on, rather than allowing THEM to prepare. That's a case-by-case thing and you'll have to make the judgement call on your own, based on your own training and experience. In these instances, I go by the often-repeated mantra: Pistols are pistols, long guns are long guns.

On 'clearing' a house... it's much more likely than most people realize that you may use this skill, so I recommend getting the training on how to do it. There's a lot of sounds that happen in a house, or apartment (especially apartment) that can sound an awful lot like someone inside the house, or someone breaking in.

If you KNOW for sure that the sound is someone rummaging about, of course the best thing to do is barricade yourself in a room with a weapon, call the police and wait for if/when they come to you.

But chances are you're not going to be sure of that yet. And more often than not, the source of a sound probably isn't going to be readily apparent, so you can end up going through the entire house looking for what happened and not see anything. In THESE situations, I am armed, and will use all that I've learned about house clearing when I search for what the suspicious sound was. Plus, it's also decent practice, and gets me more familiar with the layout of the house in this context.

YMMV.

 

[ChCx2744]

I actually think I could make more shots count with my rifle, but inside my home, the shotgun has a better chance of stopping a threat with fewer pulls of the trigger, IMO. I also don't like the fact that the rifle round might sail through the threat and fly into the world, where kittens and babies are almost always in the wrong place at the wrong time...

 

[Autolycus]

I would say the shotgun is a better deterrent. However if you can't then a 9mm with a laser is a nice deterrent.