sniper rifle

[MtnCreek]

I also like the term 'precision rifle', but I have no problem with the term 'sniper rifle'.
Precision Rife may also include a very heavy barreled, lime green and purple rifle with a 'hello kitty' sticker on it.
Sniper Rifle is pretty clear.

Hope I don't get in trouble for this, but... The 2A was not written to protect the rights of target shooters, hunters and collectors; it was written to protect the right of free people to Bare Arms.

 

[MCMXI]

They are issued specialized sniper rifles that are designed for both toughness and high accuracy at long range. So, whether or not this specialized rifle is in the hands of a sniper or not, it is still a sniper rifle. Hence, any rifle purpose-built to these high standards can be labeled a sniper rifle, although I personally prefer the term tactical rifle, such as my FN SPR.

Exactly. Terms such as sniper rifle or tactical rifle imply a ruggedness that isn't a requirement of many "precision" rifles. The term "precision" rifle is vague at best. A 30lb benchrest rifle is a precision rifle, an 18lb F-Class rifle is a precision rifle, a .22LR used for small bore matches is a precision rifle but none of them qualify as sniper rifles for obvious reasons.

 

[jackpinesavages]

Model 700 Rem. in .308, .300 Win Mag., or .338. Whichever trips YOUR trigger. Get it to a reputable 'smith for bedding, Falcon Menace scope, reloading bench start-up, welcome to the addiction.

 

[USSR]

IIRC, an M40A1 is NOT a 'Sniper' Rifle- it is a 'man portable shoulder fired magazine fed bolt action precision rifle'. That's according to the USMC. I am pretty sure it's not offically refered as a Sniper Rifle anywhere.

Ramone,

You jarheads might call a M1A1 tank a "treaded, motorized, large caliber, smooth-bore, bust-em-all-to-h3ll machine" too, but it's still a friggin' tank.

Don

 

[Lovesbeer99]

"Precision Rifle" is too broad I think. This would cover bench rest and even many competition rimfire rifles. If we call snipers "snipers" why can't they have a "sniper" rifle? Just a thought so please don't jump on me.

Other than that I like "Tactical" as a description. This eliminates all the competition rifles and isolates, to a degree, it's purpose.

 

[USSR]

Don,

did you ever drive a race car on a track? Were you trained as a sniper?

PzGren,

To answer your question, I used to race my personal car (MGA) in Solo 3 races, although I would not call my car a race car. I am not trained as a sniper, but I possess a rifle that is authorized for use by the FBI Sniper Teams. So, the point is: if you put a .30-30 lever action in the hands of a trained sniper, does it (as inaccurate as it might be) by default become a sniper rifle? And, if you take a rifle built to the standards (purpose-built) needed for the tactic commonly known as "sniping", and put it in the hands of someone not trained as a sniper, does the rifle suddenly lose the capability to which it was designed and built? Something to think about.

Don

 

[PzGren]

Don,

I am getting your point but I was issued an HK G3 that was selected for accuracy and had a Hensoldt 4x24 mounted. The use of the scope and to whom it was issued made it a sniper rifle.

In WWI German soldiers used hunting rifles as long range sniping rifles - and they did so quite successfully. Et voila, the hunting rifle thus became a sniper's rifle.

I understand what the term sniper rifle means and appreciate the development of these formidable weapons but the sniper and his weapon are one unit and the skills needed exceed marksmanship.

Why are people in the gun commuity so intrigued with snipers? It is a much less risky and unpleasant job than being tossed around in the back of a Marder tank and get out just to slide around in the mud.

 

[USSR]

PzGren,

That brings up an interesting point, and here is my take on it. In the case in the past when snipers were issued basically hunting rifles, while these rifles were in the possession and being used by snipers, I would call them a Sniper's Rifle (note the apostrophe indicating possession). In this case, remove the hunting rifle from the possession of the sniper, and it reverts back to being just a hunting rifle. This differs greatly from a rifle that is built from the ground up to possess both the toughness and accuracy needed to perform the tactic of sniping, whether in the hands of someone trained as a sniper or not. "Why are people in the gun commuity so intrigued with snipers"? I don't think it's so much being intrigued with snipers, so much as it is being in possession of a rifle built to the high standards to which sniper rifles are built. Again, just MHO.

Don

 

[Art Eatman]

The main reason I suggest "precision rifle" has relatively little to do with rifles, and a lot to do with the perception of outsiders, the neutrals or anti-gunners who have a negative reaction to "sniper rifle". Yeah, it's all about the politics of modern America. But Dudley Doofus votes, or writes editorials about the evils of us snipers.

As far as a rifle's label, however, I sorta object to the sniper designation because I don't see them as being all that much more capable of tight groups than a well-setup hunting rifle. These sniper deals just seem to be a well-setup rifle with a bunch of black plastic and maybe a bipod. You can hang a bipod on most anything, if you figure on shooting prone. And I see little magic in black plastic, outside of a wet climate.

Don't misunderstand; I'm not particularly strong in all this opinionating; it's more of a raised eyebrow over some folks' level of excitement about the appearance of the package.

 

[USSR]

Art,

Yeah, I understand the politics of the main stream American media, and in a nod to that, I call them Tactical Rifles. Precision Rifle doesn't quite make it due to the reasons elicited in previous posts. And, yes, there is a good many rifles that being called sniper rifles that are nothing more than "a bunch of black plastic and maybe a bipod", and I will add, a fancy scope. As far as Sniper/Tactical Rifles not being "much more capable of tight groups than a well-setup hunting rifle", there is much more to it than just being able to shoot a tight 5 round group at 100 yards. A Sniper/Tactical Rifle has to be able to shoot all day without the bore loading up with copper and impacting accuracy. It has to be impervious to a wandering zero due to the barrel warming up from repeat shots. And, it has to be able to be abused to a degree that would knock a hunting rifle's zero off or make it nonfunctional, and come up firing without a change in zero. There are several manufacturer's rifles that are standard issue sniper rifles for various governments and LE agencies, among them: AI, FN, Sako, McMillan, and Remington. As well, we are blessed with gunsmiths who will build rifles to these standards, such as George Gardner and Terry Cross. Yes, I understand what you are saying when you say "it's more of a raised eyebrow over some folks' level of excitement about the appearance of the package". But, you have to understand, there are folks on this site such as Zak, 1858 and myself who view this on a much deeper level than just "the appearance of the package" - it's all about functionality. Hope that helps explain it better from our perspective.

Don

 

[Kliegl]

Hope I don't get in trouble for this, but... The 2A was not written to protect the rights of target shooters, hunters and collectors; it was written to protect the right of free people to Bare Arms.

Sorry, MtnCreek, but the second amendment does not guarantee the right to walk around in a wife beater.

On a serious note, why do people think Savage is better than Remington? I like my one Savage, it does very, very well, but my Remington guns I feel have higher quality. Maybe I do not have an expensive Savage?

Back to the 'precision rifle' concept, any good bolt action with a good optic will be good to learn on. While I like my scopes, I do like being deadly to 500 yards with my iron sighted M1A as well.

 

[MCMXI]

If Remington ever offers the XM2010 (top) and the MSR (bottom) for general sale there would be two more sniper rifles in the mix. Currently, the Army is handing out Remington actions in AICS stocks to their "snipers" and calling them the Mk 13 Mod 5.

 

[Get R Done Guns]

Ramone,

One of the coolest posts I have read. Thank you for that. Every time someone asks for a sniper rifle I will have them read this!!

 

[DeepSouth]

If I were going to invest the cash I would buy this.
http://www.lesbaer.com/boltaction.html

Don't really why but I love the thing, just from what I've read on it.

 

[hso]

Any accurate hunting rifle will do for the job.

As said before it's the training of the shooter and not the rifle that makes the most difference. Look at the training a real sniper has to go through and you'll see the difference.

 

[OldmanFCSA]

I still have difficulty accepting this "record Shot" "X3" because of bullet drop at that range. The bullet must be coming down faster than it is going forward. Those of you with Ballistic Computer Programs - please provide a chart of bullet drop at that range. Hitting 6' tall vertical targets is 1 thing, but a 3rd shot on the gun is unbelieveable.

Now to original poster - are you planning on shooting a real live person so you can call yourself a "Sniper", or are you looking for an accurate target rifle? Also what ranges are you planning to shoot, what wind conditions, what weight rifle do you want to carry, how far, are you shooting from bipod or bench, are you handloading (you must to hit at long range - accurate loadings can not be purchased, but must be tailored for your individual rifle.)

Join the FCSA to learn about long range shooting even if you don't own a rifle - you will learn alot - if you show up to 1 of my matches I will provide you a rifle and ammo to shoot ( for match fees and ammo costs).

 

[Zerodefect]

I call any rifle purpose built for accuracy at range a precision rifle. Usually weight, durability, speed, and size are hurt as compromises.

Comparing an AR15 SPR to a AR15 Carbine is a good example. One is small and light with a durable chrome bore. The other is longer, heavier, large optic, and has a softer SS barrel.

A precision rifle with the intent and purpose to defend ground, or defend/save people in tight spots by stopping a human threat, I would define as a Tactical Precision rifle.

I don't use the term "sniper rifle" anymore because every kid in a gun store will call anything that can reach out beyond 600 yards a "sniper rifle". And it's also the knowledge that snipers have a large assortment of rifles they use.

It's not the first bit of terminology to become obsolete lately. Noone referrs to the "chart" anymore. "Tier 0" is long gone. "Mil-spec" is a joke. As we learn, language changes.

Also:
-The is nothing wrong with a rifle purpose built to stop a human threat. Military rifles are fun to build, and fun to shoot.
-Such a rifle may come in handy. Hopefully it never deos.

-Setting a new personal record for distance and accuracy never gets old.

-Anything from an AK or AR carbine, AR10, AR15 SPR, Hunting rifle, and even a heavy barrel target rifle has been used as a sniper rifle by a sniper, somewhere.

 

[Art Eatman]

"But, you have to understand, there are folks on this site such as Zak, 1858 and myself who view this on a much deeper level than just "the appearance of the package"."

USSR: Yup. It's the difference between adults and teeny-boppers.

I'm mostly a hunter, but I dearly love tweaking rifles and developing loads to get as tight a group as possible, and as far out in distance as is rational for a hunter. Serious avocation for sixty years, now.

Zak showed up at the THR Whittington gathering a few years ago. Hey, he shoots pretty good, for a kid. Giggle-snort.

I've always figured that around 500 yards was my pragmatic limit. Lots of respect for folks who are competent shooters at 1,000.

 

[USSR]

Zak showed up at the THR Whittington gathering a few years ago. Hey, he shoots pretty good, for a kid. Giggle-snort.

No doubt. Amazing what a little knowledge, tenacity and practice will do for a guy. Oh, and BTW, I appreciate you mods not locking this thread down. I realize it is a topic that is bound to be controversial, but all in all, I believe the posts have been civil.

Don

 

[Cryogaijin]

It amazes me that a new (or any) member can't ask a legitimate question without everyone assuming that he's some kind of mall ninja. Give yourselves a pat on the back!!

A chunk of the issue here is that there are a TON of people who misuse the term "Sniper rifle" intending for a precision or long-range rifle.

I have a similar reaction to anyone talking about anything stronger than .338 winmag for hunting american game, tbh.

As for the original post, IMO you're going about it the wrong way. Determine the range you wish to shoot at, then buy the rifle that best matches that engagement envelope. Don't buy the engagement envelope and try to make it fit whatever.

What I mean here is that a .338 AW is largely inferior to smaller, slower, lighter calibers at shorter ranges. The Lapua is great at staying supersonic out to 1700 yards sure, but you never shoot past 500 a .308 or .300 winmag will work AT LEAST as well. Heck, you could get lucky with a $99 mosin, and be doing .5 MOA at 500 yards with it.

The intended distance determines what the "Best" rifle or caliber will be.

 

[Clark]

I have built a sub moa rifle for less than $100.
I put a $33 surplus 22 rimfire barrel from Ebay on a $50 surplus 1903 Turkish Mauser from BIG5. I bent the bolt and drilled and tapped. $10 for Weaver scope mounts #45 and #46. I cut off the old barrel and made a bushing stub out of it, and Silver soldered the new little barrel to the stub. That is because the 22 barrel was too small in diameter to cut threads
I reamed out the chamber to 223 Rem .250" neck.
I shot 33 gr Vmax that would stabilize in the 16" twist barrel.

For the test, I used a 40X Leupold scope [not part of cost build up]
On 2007-11-30 I tested it at Issaquah:
.95" 5 shot at 100 yards


What does it all mean?
If you pay $2,000 for a tactical precision sniper rifle that weighs 20 pounds and gets 0.5 moa, you could have done better.

 

[MCMXI]

A tool isn't defined by who is using it.

Accuracy International rifles are currently being used in Afghanistan/Iraq by British forces in the exact same format that any of us can buy from places like Mile High Shooting Accessories? The AI isn't built for F-Class, benchrest, plinking or hunting. The rifle was designed specifically for one purpose only, to be a rugged, repeatable and reliable rifle for use in a wide range of environments by military personal whose primary function is to gather intelligence and eradicate specific targets. Whether that rifle is the hands of a sniper who has graduated from a sniper program or in the hands of a 10-year old, the rifle doesn't care. It is what it is regardless of how it's being used.

I will admit that I don't use the term "sniper rifle" even though I have an AI and numerous other rifles that could be used in that role. However, I don't have a problem with the term if it's being applied to a specific subset of rifles that have been purposefully built for that role.

There are 1911 pistols purposefully built for bulls eye shooting. It's still a bulls eye pistol if you use it for USPSA matches. Conversely, there are 1911 pistols purposefully built as "race guns" for USPSA matches. If you use one those for bulls eye, it's still a race gun.

 

[Zak Smith]

As a side comment, in the 80's (and maybe a little later), AI did sell rifles specifically for Palma and related events, e.g. the Palmamster. These had an action that was almost identical to the original AI, but had several differences.

 

[ms6852]

First of all, the rifles used by snipers are not sniper rifles but precision rifles, which have been modified by ensuring stricter specifications which require experierence and skill which adds to the price of the weapon.

Tests have been conducted now in which any rifle purchased out of the box can shoot MOA regardless of the price. They tested it with the stevens, the edge rifle by savage and put them up against higher priced models. What was determined is that because of advances in technology and metallurgy and production of rifles they are all MOA rifles, it is the shooter that is not MOA proficient.

Any way if you want a nice MOA rifle, go to MEL's website Sniper central and you can have a fully functional precision rifle or tactical rifle made for a base price of $1000 including scope.

 

[Zak Smith]

First of all, the rifles used by snipers are not sniper rifles but precision rifles, which have been modified by ensuring stricter specifications which require experierence and skill which adds to the price of the weapon.

If you mean by this that "rifles used by snipers" each start life as some sort of "precision rifle" manufactured as such, and then are modified significantly by an armorer into something that is now substantially different than what it started as, this is not correct anymore. The trend is for the armed forces to buy rifles directly from the manufacturer, designed and made for the specific purpose.