The 1911 - "for experts only"

[kentucky_smith]

Maybe some author's want their character to look super1337tacticool?

 

[Clarence]

Like any firearm the 1911 should only be used by folks who are proficient in its use.

Only folks who are proficient should be handling or carrying any firearms unsupervised.

Anyone who doesn't pay attention to Rule #3 is going to have an ND regardless of what kind of sidearm they are using.

1. All guns are always loaded.
2. Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy. (For those who insist that this particular gun is unloaded, see Rule 1.)
3. Keep your finger off the trigger till your sights are on the target.
4. Identify your target, and what is behind it.

The "Only for experts" comment is BS in my opinion.

 

[earlthegoat2]

I think that comparatively speaking a 1911 is harder to master than say a revolver or a glock. But if your familiar with firearms with safties then I dont think it is a big deal.

 

[ljnowell]

IMO an experts gun would be one that has no manual safety at all. There is a lot less room for error there.

 

[easyg]

IMO an experts gun would be one that has no manual safety at all. There is a lot less room for error there.

So now revolvers are for experts too?

 

[skoro]

"experts only?"

Seems a bit overblown to me. I'd phrase it more like, "not a beginner's handgun."

 

[CWL]

you don't have to worry about the relatively fine coordination required to activate the safety -- under the stress of potentially mortal combat, mind you -- and you are managing a 12-14 pound trigger pull rather than a 4-6 pound trigger pull. Those two factors, IMO, require a lot of training before they become the "second nature" that they should be in life-or-death conditions.

Do you need to remember to put your finger on the trigger, or is that automatic? If your trigger finger knows where to go, then why wouldn't your thumb 'remember' how to swipe the safety? "Muscle memory", it is called muscle memory.

IIRC, 2 million Govt, 1911A1s were manufactured in WWII. How come there weren't any complaints from soldiers who lugged them all over the world and into (and out of) hell?

The biggest complaints about 1911s being too difficult are from armchair commandos.

 

[mljdeckard]

I don't think that the 1911 is for experts, I think that more recent designs are dumbed down.

You will have people argue it both ways, that a combat handgun should have a manual safety and an exposed hammer, and others who will argue that more switches and controls are difficult to remember how to use in a crisis.

I say if you can walk and chew gum and drive a stick, you can learn the controls on a 1911. (I carry one and don't prefer anything else for any situation.)

HAVING SAID THAT; There is no such thing as a foolproof system. It's a question of finding a sufficiently talented fool. (opening the 1911 vs M9 door,) Among the reasons the military claims to like the M-9 better, they can't caim it's because it's LESS complicated. If I were in charge of rapid familiarization for pistols with a bunch of green soldiers who have never fired a handgun before, and this may well be the ONLY training they get before they take it to war, I would prefer to show them how to use a Glock.

 

[raz-0]

Well, I don't call it an "expert's gun" but I do not recommend them to first time gun buyers. Mainly because I want them to enjoy their first gun, and there are enough quirks about the platform as it exists in the market right now that you should know what you are getting into to not have buyer's remorse.

There are a number of reasons I believe a 1911 can make a first time owner very unhappy.

1) So many of the 1911s out there don't run reliably out of the box. Unless you have a grasp of the operation of the platform, you are going to be sending a lot of them back under warranty. This tends to make people unhappy, especially if the manufacturer makes you pay for the return shipping.

2) Lots of 1911 makers and owners will tell you the gun "needs to break in." Most first time buyers are also going for a 1911 in .45 ACP. This means that that pricey 1911 that you are now told needs another 500 rounds through it to work. Adding another $200 to the price of an already pricey gun tends to make people unhappy.

3) Disassembly of the gun is complicated compared to a lot of other designs. This makes people unhappy.

4) reassembly can be a PITA. An "Idiot mark" on your brand new expensive 1911 doesn't make people happy. Being referred to as an idiot for doing something so common that you can buy tools to avoid it also doesn't make people happy.

5) Junk magazines. You just stretched your budget to buy your nice 1911. Now you have to replace all the mags with something that works. Add another $60 to $200 to the price of your already pricey 1911. This does not make people happy.

6) Crappy extractors. So many of them are not set up right, or are made to save money and fail fairly early in life. Sure you can get a good one in there for $25 or so, but you have to know how to tune it yourself. First time owners tend to not like this situation.

7) They mostly come in .45 ACP. most new shooters tend to regret not having something cheaper to feed if they go for a .45. The additional expense can turn a new shooter off shooting for good.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Virtually every man in the US Army and Marine Corps was trained to use the M1911 from its adoption to the mid-80s. Think about that -- kids out of the slums, farms, factories and suburbs, who had never held a loaded pistol in their lives got a few hours' training on the M1911 and they were good to go.

 

[Oldtrader3]

The US Army did not make soldiers proficient with the 1911 in (2) weeks. At least not the same army that I was in. I carried a 1911 and qualified with it for nearly the entire (3) years that I was an infantry medic. I did not become truly proficient with the 1911 until I started practicing with the Fort Lewis Pistol Team and shooting 300 rounds .45ACP/day with a match grade 1911, practicing trigger control and proper grip.

The issue 1911 that I had rattled when you shook it, it was so loose and worn out. The Armory in our unit only cared about rifles and machine guns. Officers and Medics 1911's did not receive any much needed tuning or even part tolerance matching. The Kimber's that I own now are an entirely different animal than any .45, 1911 that I was issued for carry in the Army.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The US Army did not make soldiers proficient with the 1911 in (2) weeks.

They didn't have to make them proficient. They only had to train them to carry it safely and take care of it. And that's the M1911-unique aspect -- proficiency with a handgun is a matter of shooting, and any handgun will take as much shooting to reach proficiency as any other.

 

[mljdeckard]

I should probably add that my idea of an expert's gun is a P3AT, or a snub-nose revolver. Little guns have more felt recoil and a smaller sight radius. They are what you move up to as you become more experienced. They are NOT what you should start with because you think they're more convenient to carry.

 

[Owen]

bear71, who is claiming the 1911 is for experts. you keep saying "big names." Name some names, or your just using a strawman.

 

[m4jockey]

I 2nd mljdeckard's comment.

 

[raz-0]

Virtually every man in the US Army and Marine Corps was trained to use the M1911 from its adoption to the mid-80s. Think about that -- kids out of the slums, farms, factories and suburbs, who had never held a loaded pistol in their lives got a few hours' training on the M1911 and they were good to go.

They got a few hours training. And an armorer. Said armorer got more than a few hours training. They also did not have to pay for their 1911. And nobody cared about their opinion or wanted them to enjoy owning their 1911, which they also didn't actually own.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The point is, for over 70 years, the organizations that had to train litterally millions of men on the quick used the M1911 and had no trouble accomplishing their mission.

As I said, there are two things to train -- those that are gun-specific, and those that are common to any gun. The gun-specific matters are quickly trained on the M1911. Those that are common are pretty much the same with any gun (although, as pointed out, snub-nosed revolvers are probably the most difficult to train to proficiency.)

You don't have to be an "expert" to safely carry, handle and maintain an M1911.

 

[GRAYRID3R]

I have a Colt 1911 and have never felt like it needed any more attention than my other handguns. It, and my Ruger Vaquero .45 are my 2 favorites, and probably why I am more "proficiant" (proficiant being a very relative term) with them. I am least proficiant with my Redhawk .44 mag and my S&W 642. The 642 is an awsome CCW because of size but I have big hands and it is harder for me to use. My wife loves it and shoots better with it than I do. The .44 mag fits good but everyone knows it's hard to be consistantly accurate with that big recoil. I own 2 XDm 9s that are my HD handguns (one has a Veridian laser). I guess I don't really understand the fuss over the 1911 being an "expert" gun, because I sure don't consider myself an expert.

 

[DAVIDSDIVAD]

I think gun writers get too caught up in all of the "If you don't pay 6 figures for a tactical 1911 and wear a milt sparks holster, you are not an expert" kinda junk.

 

[tipoc]

From bear71,

Some pretty big names claiming 1911's are for experts only. Otherwise well respected authors.

Like who? Do you recall names?

I can see where some folks may believe the 1911 or single action semis with thumb safeties could be for those with more training. If you look at this thread here...http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=458945... you can see confusion and concern.


tipoc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I think gun writers get too caught up in all of the "If you don't pay 6 figures for a tactical 1911 and wear a milt sparks holster, you are not an expert" kinda junk.

I laughed when I read that -- it called to mind an "expert" who used to write something called "Tactical Teddy" presenting problems to the readers. A typical "Tactical Teddy" problem would start like this:

You're wearng a custom Graz-Buria with Zimmerstutzen night sights in a kangaroo skin small-of-the-back holster by Alonzo Yold.

For half a page, he'd discuss all your arms and acoutements, and finally get to the point -- "A thug approaches you and asks for a cigarette. What do you do?"

 

[Dazen]

Those of you that make 1911's sounds complicated are Nut's. The pistol is nothing but simple. Easy to Shoot, easy to TAKE down and easy to clean.

 

[easyg]

Oldtrader3
The US Army did not make soldiers proficient with the 1911 in (2) weeks. At least not the same army that I was in.

You're right, I exaggerated the time....it didn't even take two weeks, just a couple of days.

I carried a 1911 and qualified with it for nearly the entire (3) years that I was an infantry medic. I did not become truly proficient with the 1911 until I started practicing with the Fort Lewis Pistol Team and shooting 300 rounds .45ACP/day with a match grade 1911, practicing trigger control and proper grip.

I reckon some folks just need more time and practice than others.

It really depends upon your definition of "proficient".
The military can take a teenager who has never even held a pistol before, and in just a day or so, that young teen will be able to load the magazine, insert the magazine correctly in the pistol, chamber a round, shoot and hit targets at self defense distances, clear stoppages, disassemble, and re-assemble the pistol even in the dark and under stress.
I certainly wouldn't call that "non-proficient".

The 1911 is NOT hard to learn.

 

[Drail]

.."the relatively fine coordination required to activate the safety.." Yeah almost as much coordination as it takes to pull the trigger. Who comes up with this stuff?

 

[Oldtrader3]

Procient in my terms is being able to shoot better than 250/300 in a three stage NRA match. Maybe this bar is too high for most people. It's like how you get to Carnegie Hall: practice, practice, practice.

Actually I became "proficient" much more easily on K frame Smith's and Ruger Single action magnums than the 1911. The 1911 took me a while to master. I have small hands and the grip angle was not set up for my stature.