The 1911 - "for experts only"

[Frank Ettin]

Sure 1911s are for experts. So are SIGs and Glocks and revolvers and guns in general.

Folks who have sought out proper training and practice diligently on a regular basis, whatever their handgun of choice is, tend to handle their weapons well, efficiently and safely and also hit what they are shooting at. It's folks, whatever handgun they might be shooting, who aren't getting proper training, shooting 100s of rounds and practicing regularly, who display the atrocious gun handling and abysmal marksmanship I see all the time.

No gun will make up for a lack of training and practice. And with training and practice, pretty much any gun of decent quality will do.

As Jeff Cooper used to say, "It is long been a principle of ours that one is no more armed because he has possession of a firearm than he is a musician because he owns a piano. There is no point in having a gun if you are not capable of using it skillfully."

 

[MagnumDweeb]

My Uncle is a 1911 fiend. His wife is making him sell off most of his handguns with the exception of his self-custom Caspian and Fusion kits builds (he owns 7 of them, three in .45 Acp, one in 10mm, one in .38 Super, one in 9mm[the one he did for his wife and she doesn't like it]) and my grandpa's RSBH 7.5" .44mag (the gun that taught me to love the .44 Mag) and a little Colt Detective .38.

I shoot his 1911s at least once a month, the biggest reason why I don't get one myself. I've shot springfield and auto-ordinance. The auto was the only one I ever had troubles with at twenty yards. Granted I grew up shooting since 13, and it was a good three trips to the range before I could put a magazine inside a playing card at 20 yards. Granted I had been shooting .44 magnum for a few years before that so it was a pleasant load.

Once I'm done picking up a few more handguns(Ruger Sp 101 3" or Taurus 605 3", Ruger LCP[seeing a trend here], Ruger GP100 4") I'll go hunting for a 2nd hand 1911 in either a Springfield or Taurus that I can convert for .460 Rowland. After that I'll take up kit building in 10mm in officer and .45 ACP in officer but I'll get one of the Rock Islands for that.

The 1911 is endearing, something we've all seen in WWII movies pretty much. If you got an average hand size it can be tricky to get used to. If you got weak wrists or hands you are in trouble, and you think 9mm kicks you are in even more trouble. .45 ACP is a nice warm welcomming caliber.

 

[w_houle]

In my agency, the 1911 comes recommended. All the while, until recently if you wanted to carry a Glock you get extra training.

In what? Reading, math, or science?

 

[yongxingfreesty]

you need to be experts because they aren't as reliable compared to other semis.

 

[PT1911]

you need to be experts because they aren't as reliable compared to other semis.

I just cannot help but laugh at that...

 

[Frank Ettin]

...you need to be experts because they aren't as reliable compared to other semis....

I must be an expert then, because I have about 20 1911s; and they're all completely reliable. I have one I used for IPSC (Limited Division) that's been completely trouble free for something like 30,000 to 40,000 rounds. I was taking a class a few months ago, and the 1911 I was using was 100%; but another guy was having all kinds of trouble trying to get his Glock to run.

 

[Diamondback6]

I'd say you don't have to be an expert, but you do need to be willing and able to commit to the higher standards of care required for being a switch-flip and 5 pounds' pressure away from "BANG!"... A Glock, you'll hopefully feel that trigger starting to move and rethink your Rule Two violation if it's not intentional, cocked single-actions don't give you that luxury.

Posted by a 1911 user.

----------------
Now playing: John Williams - The Millennium Falcon - Imperial Cruiser Pursuit
via FoxyTunes

 

[doubs43]

you need to be experts because they aren't as reliable compared to other semis.

Do you seriously think the US Military would have kept it as long as it did - and some still use it - if it were as unreliable as your statement implies? You'll find it difficult to find another pistol that outshines the 1911 for reliability when it's made to GI specs.

Look around and tell me what other semi-auto pistol has been selling as well for nearly 100 years and shows no signs of slowing down. There isn't a single model of any other make that comes close to the 1911 for customizing. It'll still be around 100 years from now and going strong.

 

[mljdeckard]

I agree. The statement that G.I. 1911A1s were/are unreliable is nonsense. A 1911 is, like any other machine, a compromise of tolerances and performance. It's not a matter of KNOWING HOW to make a good, tight, reliable, accurate 1911, it's a matter of what consumers are willing to pay for. I am of the (well-informed, backed up by experience) opinion that there are many semi-custom 1911s that run fine, out of the box without tweaking, and that if you get one with a problem, it will reveal itself early. Therefore, thoroughly testfire your carry gun, REGARDLESS of make and model.

I carried a 1911 to start. I read a lot of magazines, and listened to a lot of fat guys behind the counters of gun stores, and believed the rhetoric. "It's too old. It's too complicated. Cops don't use them. Newer rounds in other calibers are magical. You look STUPID carrying one of those. You need high capacity or you will surely die." I carried S&W, Glock, Taurus, Beretta, Sig, Para-Ordnance, Colt, etc. I never felt like I carried, shot, or LIKED any of them as well as my Kimber Custom II.

I have argued in here repeatedly that Kimbers are just as good as any other 1911 manufacturer, that their high numbers do not mean higher failure RATES, that if you need high capacity in a handgun you need to train more, blah blah blah. But the period at the end of the final sentence is, THIS IS WHAT WORKS FOR ME. I have tried darn near EVERYTHING, and this is what I came back to. You do your homework, make your own mistakes, and make up your own mind. This is MY *ss, not yours. Your opinions won't save it.

 

[Frank Ettin]

And it's my experience that it's a myth that tight 1911s are necessarily finicky or need special care or don’t work if they’re dirty. Some time ago, I decided to go out to the range with the second Les Baer I bought, a Concept IV.



I bought the gun about 8 or 9 years ago, a year or so after I bought my first, a Premier II. I used the gun on occasion for IPSC – to give the PII some rest. Then when I went to Gunsite about five years ago, I decided to use the CIV. (For IPSC, I had it set up with an S&A magazine well, an extended magazine release and a tungsten guide rod. Before going to Gunsite, I restored it to its original configuration, and trained with it that way for a while to prepare.) All in all, I’d estimate that it’s had about 12,000 to 15,000 rounds through it. (No, I don’t keep detailed records.)

And now back to our story.

So a while ago, I decided to take the CIV to the range. Shot about 200 rounds and came home – put it in the safe. (And no, I’m not always diligent about cleaning my guns.)

Then about ten days later, I had time to go to the range for some pistol shooting and took the CIV. I ran a bore snake down its gullet a few time, stripped it, wiped what I could reach easily, and put a few drops of Gun Butter here and there. Shot another 200 rounds – came home and put it in the safe. I took myself to the range again a few days later; and yup – took the CIV out again – and yes, it was still dirty. That trip I didn’t even do a once over – just shot another 200 rounds and back to the safe it went.

A little later, a last minute change in plans left me with some time on my hands – so off to the range. I grabbed the CIV – no time to clean it – packed up and off to the range again with a very dirty gun. Now I put another 250 rounds through it – quick 2 and three round strings.

So I’ve fired some 850 rounds with this tight Les Baer that has only has a casual cleaning after the first 200. The dirty Baer ran absolutely flawlessly, and displayed its customary, first rate accuracy as well.

So tell me again how these 1911s that are too tight and can’t be relied upon unless they’re pampered, freshly cleaned and oiled. I suspect that it's true that some tight guns will be prone to hiccups. But it's not just a question of how tight the gun is. It's a question of how it's put together and fitted. If it's fitted properly it can be tight, extremely accurate, utterly reliable and not finicky.

 

[ljnowell]

So now revolvers are for experts too?

I was referring directly to autoloaders, but I do appreciate you misinterpreting my words and posting that, it was rather comical. And to be honest, most people would need more practice to effectively use a revolver in DA and reload it quickly than they would with an autoloader.

 

[fedlaw]

IMHO 1911's are not for beginners. There is a difference between "experienced" and "expert". Safe gun handling requires practice. Guns in a smaller caliber and with a simpler manual of arms make it easier to learn the basics and are more forgiving of operator error. I also wouldn't start a beginning motorcyclist out on a crotch rocket.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

IMHO 1911's are not for beginners.

How are M1911s any different regarding the need for expertise than any other handgun?

 

[schmeky]

you need to be experts because they aren't as reliable compared to other semis.

Wow, what a statement. In a "shoot-off" last year, only 2 pistols went 1,000rounds w/o a single bobble: a 1911 and a Glock.

I have several 1911's, and they are the autos I depend on because of their reliablity.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The M1911 has two flaws -- first of all, it's extremely popular. Secondly, all the patents covering it have long since expired. Those two flaws combine to drive everyone and his dog to manufacture and sell M1911-type pistols. As a result, there are some M1911s that were made with poor quality control and inferior materials.

An M1911 made as it was meant to be made is the most reliable automatic going. Conversely, if you started people manufacturing Glocks in every corner of the world, you'd find Glock's reputation for reliability suffering.

 

[hillbillydelux]

Like any firearm the 1911 should only be used by folks who are proficient in its use.

Only folks who are proficient should be handling or carrying any firearms unsupervised

I totally agree.

you need to be experts because they aren't as reliable compared to other semis

I totally dissagree.

 

[rbernie]

Can someone explain why dozens of authors and gun writers seem to think that the 1911 is a fine handgun "for experts only".

I note that several people have asked for the names of the 'dozens' of writers that are saying such silly things, and I also note that Bear71 has not seen fit to answer that question.

Since I have never seen such things said about the platform and Bear71 cannot bring himself to substantiate his claims, I am left to conclude that Bear71 is simply pulling this reference out of his fourth-point-of-contact.

 

[raskolnikov_22]

Couple extra steps in field stripping, that's all.

 

[Pizzagunner]

I'm guess it is yet another sign of our degenerate times that something as dead simple as the operation of a SAO pistol like the 1911 or BHP has become "complicated."

Is Springer on yet? I feel like watching some Glock owners applying their "keepin' it simple" philosophy to the other desperate aspects of their lives.

 

[MacTech]

When I let another shooter try my 1911 (Kimber Custom II), I ask them if they have shot any 1911's before, if they have, I still load up a snap-cap first, and have them try the trigger so they can see how light it is, then hand them the loaded mag

If the shooter hasn't shot a 1911 before, I go over the basics with them (cover the two manual safeties, the sight radius, explain what kind of recoil they should expect - more of a straight push back), then let them know that the trigger requires a far lighter touch than their current gun, load up a snap-cap, and have them dry fire a few times, when they feel comfortable, I hand them the loaded mag and let them go live fire

most first-timers fall in love with that light trigger, and are surprised at how "tame" the recoil is, they start off thinking "Oh, I could *never* shoot a .45, it's too big/recoils too heavily", and end up thinking "this is *GREAT* I love this gun/hey that wasn't as bad as I thought it would be"

my favorite novice 1911 story was a couple who was shooting next to me, the woman was shooting some ultra-light-weight .357 snubby, flinching with every shot, getting battered by the recoil, between firing we got to talking, comparing guns, I offered to let both her and her male companion try my Kimber, the guy declined, as he had shot 1911's before, the woman decided to try it, and after a brief familiarization, and explaining how the heavier steel 1911 frame helps soak up recoil, she was putting rounds downrange, decent accuracy, and not a single flinch, she thanked me, and we all went back to shooting

As we were reloading, I heard her say "I like his gun better, why can I shoot that one better than my revolver, can we get one of those instead?"

the main thing I stress to novice 1911 shooters is how little pressure is needed to pull the trigger and fire the gun, for someone familiar with a DAO/safe action/DA-SA handgun, the SA trigger pull of the 1911 is quite different to what their used to

 

[yeti]

Can we please leave it that a 1911 IS an 'experts only' gun, my mind scoffs, but my ego really enjoys the title.

 

[SCKimberFan]

Its actually much closer to this:

Insert magazine, rack slide, responsibly operate thumb safety, know single action trigger weights, pull trigger, BANG, stovepipe, tap magazine, rack slide, responsibly operate thumb safety, know single action trigger weights, pull trigger, BANG, fail to feed, tap magazine, rack slide, responsibly operate thumb safety, know single action trigger weights, pull trigger, BANG, fail to feed, tap magazine, rack slide, responsibly operate thumb safety, know single action trigger weights, CLICK, drop mag, rack slide, Insert magazine, rack slide, responsibly operate thumb safety, know single action trigger weights, pull trigger, BANG, fail to feed..........

Yuk, yuk, yuk.

 

[DuncanSA]

Anyone can use any weapon. Using it well requires training and practise.

Talking about "experts" only confuses the issue. I shoot a lot of black powder weapons and in their day young soldiers used them well - they did not need to be experts. I also shoot modern stuff including Glocks etc.

Its not the gun that matters but the person using it - I like 1911s, they are a simple design that has stood the test of time and still features well in competition.

Lets be honest here, a weapon designed "way back" for the use of simple soldiery, that passed the 6 000 round ordinance test and is still going strong can't be that difficult to use. It sure is reliable.

 

[kmbrman]

1911 only for Experts ?

No, the 1911 is not only for experts. I think that idea is out there because more shooters that are[ Into ] guns tend to like the 1911. Most beginning shooters choose less complicated autos with such popular pistols as the striker fired Glocks , M&Ps and XDs that operate easily and don't have grip safeties , hammer block safeties, barrel bushings and such. As you get more into the shooting sports you become interested in different types of pistols. I shoot both striker pistols as well as the 1911 Kimber I own and would never consider myself a Snob. Both forms have their functions and I'm equally fond of shooting them both.

 

[Arbor]

To those who say a Glock is simpler to use without training-

Why did NYPD go to the "New York Trigger"? Because the AD-rate went down when they adopted the Glock and they just wanted to give it a horrendous heavy trigger pull for no reason?

Not trying to say the Glock is a bad gun, but DAO with no safety definitely isn't the be-all end-all of handguns, especially without proper training.