The 1911 pistol: Obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial

[Delmar]

ob·so·lete.
ADJECTIVE
no longer produced or used; out of date

Ummm, there are more makers of the 1911 platform now than at any time in the history of the pistol.

im·ma·te·ri·al.
ADJECTIVE
unimportant under the circumstances;

Not so sure about this statement. A nearly half inch hole through one's lung should be pretty important.

ir·rel·e·vant.
ADJECTIVE
not connected with or relevant to something.

Really? Just how is the 1911 not relevant? It was designed to be a firearm for close in battle, or what they call CQB nowadays.

The 1911 platform may not be for everyone. Its heavier than some pistols, doesnt hold a much ammunition as some pistols, its bigger than some pistols, and doesnt conceal as well as some pistols.

I have taken several people out to the range in order for them to try their hand at pistol shooting. I dont make any recommendations as to what they should carry but would bring out my Government Model, a 4 inch GP100 and a Beretta Vertec, 9MM. Out of the dozens of folks I have had out, exactly one shot the revolver better. All of the others shot better groups with the Government model.

For me personally, I can shoot all 3 equally well so far as the groups go, but for the combination of a large caliber, easy trigger, adequate number of rounds in the magazine and concealment, the 1911 platform sure has a lot going for it. For me, its my go to firearm when a pistol is desired.

Seems like some folks make a lot of noise about how their choice is better than the 1911-hey, if it works for you the way you wish it to, then you have made a good choice for yourself. There sure is a lot of squawking about how the 1911 platform is no good-almost as if the 1911 set the standard at one time.

Actually, it did.

If the sales of 1911 platforms speaks to this in any way, there are a lot of folks who believe it is still a very effective means of self defense. Count me in this group.

I will have trotted off this good Earth many years before it happens, but I would like to hear all the squawking about how the Glock pistol is an unreliable jammomatic a hundred years from now when 30 companies are making them in varying stages of quality, and X pistol is now the hot ticket.

 

[The Bushmaster]

Reloadron, I'm never without mine. Both open carry and concealed carry. It's at my side. Reliable, accurate, easy to conceal and easy to get on target.

 

[george burns]

If something, "anything", is still being made, and still as popular as ever, how could it possibly be , Obsolete, immaterial, or irrelevant? The question itself is flawed, and in case doesn't apply.

 

[weisse52]

Keep in mind folks, Col. Cooper 'taught for the classes, and not the masses.'

That is he expected one to train, and train hard, to master ones weapon. Most folk don't want to be bothered with that. Sure the 1911, in .45, kicks. Sure it is of limited ammo capacity, and yes, it is more complicated to use than a 'point and click' auto (but NOT a DA/AS.)

Now I'm a Glock user. Even a 9mm carrier. But I do have fully carry ready 1911s and they are second to none.

The only thing that is 'obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial' is thinking the 1911 is done for.

Deaf

This ∆
Saved me lots of typing.

 

[Confederate]

I'm always amused by the yahoos who criticize Jeff Cooper, and who demean the 1911 pistol as a defensive pistol, compared to some more recent pistol offering.

I don't see many people demeaning the. 1911 as a defensive pistol. It's a fine choice for self defense. Where many of us depart from the Cooper doctrine is that we 1. don't see the .45ACP as the ultimate defense caliber, and 2) aren't particularly infatuated with the Colt M1911 design as compared to other, more reliable, modern automatic designs.

Of course, none of those who fit this description have never done anything to advance personal protection training like Cooper, and none have had anything worthwhile to contribute regarding sidearm choice or application.

This, of course, means we have nothing of value to add to this discussion.

Those of us who have Gunsite training and who recognize the peculiar and particular virtues of the 1911 pistol think these modern dinks who seem to have unfounded opinions about everything are just fools.

Meaning that those who have been indoctrinated in Chairman Cooper's personal philosophies and opinions think that the rest of us are "dinks" and/or fools with no practical experience upon which to base our opinions.

Sure, pistol training does advance, and pistol designs evolve, but the older ways and equipment never become useless or obsolete.

What you say here is true, but I suppose many of us would differ when it came to pistol designs. Browning was a good old Mormon guy and a genius when it came to gun design, but eventually everything is overtaken by events. And I'm not saying that the 1911 is there yet. But there are better designs at better prices. And though the .45APC is a fine caliber for self defense, it's really not the ultimate we've been told (since the end of WWII) it is. And I've seen no evidence that it's significantly better, or more effective, than the 9mm. Stopping power of the jacketed, lead, round-nosed slugs the military uses is horrible, regardless of whether it's a 9mm or a .45ACP. And stopping power increases dramatically in both calibers when bullet configuration changes to optimize performance.



Two of my favorite autos are the S&W 645 .45ACP (top) and 659 9mm. Both are exceptionally
rugged and reliable.

 

[stoky]

Two of my favorite autos are the S&W 645 .45ACP (top) and 659 9mm.

but the safeties work BACKWARDS

 

[200Apples]

.

The question itself is flawed, and in case doesn't apply.

In the context of the quoted material within the original post, it was never a question. Perhaps you'd be better served by reading the original post. You'll also need a sense of humor.

 

[Dudedog]

Old out of date...bla bla bla,
They can still shoot just fine and do the job. Can't think of anybody offhand that wants to be shot at with one.
Some places you can only have 10 rnd mags so the capacity trade off there isn't as bad.

I own a PT99, A P226, two XDs, A Russian MAK, 3 1911s among others.
Heck I like the 1911 so much I bought a Springfield loaded in 9mm eek: not .45), and it is my favorite pistol.

 

[PabloJ]

I have no reservation with using this small Kimber as a nightstand gun. The gun came along at a very good deal and never thought I would have any interest in a 3" barrel 1911 type gun. However, the little gun proved itself and has always performed flawlessly for me. I guess it could be replaced with any of my revolvers but I actually trust the little gun, with our lives.



Ron

If you buy good quality rigid plastic holster you could do away with that slide locking safety all together.
That would be same setup as Glock except safety is not part of trigger but part of the back strap.

 

[grter]

Obsolete I don't know I guess it depends on what you use it for.

It sure is not a state of the art defensive carry weapon although I get the impression a lot of people are trying to pass it off as one.

These days it's a design modified to stretch it's limits beyond it's what it was made for.

The 1911 is made to be a sloppy loose tolerance war pistol carried in a side holster and fed a strict diet of military spec ball ammo only.

It was accurate out to reasonable ranges and the lack of super tight precision made it reliable in adverse conditions such as after being accidently dropped in murky water loaded with sediment and grit. It excelled in that role.

There is just lighter better stuff with higher ammunition capacity these days. Can someone trick out a 1911 to make it work for them, sure but same can be said for anything. It would not be my first choice.

P.S. In my opinion even a fully jacketed .45 Cal while far from the best would still be quite adequate for self defense given it's size and weight.

 

[grter]

If you buy good quality rigid plastic holster you could do away with that slide locking safety all together.
That would be same setup as Glock except safety is not part of trigger but part of the back strap.

I like that. It sounds interesting now get ready to take cover from all the safety Sallies and suedo lawers that are going give all sorts of "advice" about why you should cower in fear at even the thought of being the least bit creative and surrender your happiness in life to allow others to think and make choices for you.

 

[Richard Head]

Many many years ago I traded for a 1911A1. Later the Army was nice enough to issue me one. Until I started to read Col. Cooper's articles though, I really had only a very rudimentary understanding of how a 1911 type pistol might best be used in combat. Without Cooper, I don't believe the 1911 would have anything like the following it has today. It would be of interest to collectors, military historians, guys who enjoy shooting old, odd military firearms, etc, much as say the Webley revolver is. Functional yes, but certainly nothing any modern shooter, soldier, competitor or LEO would want to have to depend on. I attended training at Gunsite on a couple of occasions, met the Colonel, and admit I didn't always agree with him. That being said, IMHO he is the man most responsible for the current widespread interest in 1911s, and subsequent mega-million dollar growth industry generated by interest, purchase, customization and use of this old "obsolete, irrelevant and immaterial" pistol. I was certainly affected by the "Cult?" of the 1911. For my last decade in full time LE, in spite of being considered a bit odd by my younger co-workers, I carried a Colt Govt. model. I would not have done so if I my 1911s had not displayed dependable performance.

BTW, tark, thanks for the info on 1911 longevity by someone who has actual, not internet, knowledge of same.

I have to disagree, the 1911 had a reputation long before anyone even heard of Jeff Cooper. I doubt many people even know who Jeff Cooper is today.

 

[Deanimator]

I doubt many people even know who Jeff Cooper is today.

Most people would be hard pressed to tell you the name of the capital of the state in which they live.

Few of my decisions are premised upon the intelligence or education of the "common man".

 

[agtman]

It's antiquated junk-in-the-truck.

Get rid of it.

1932 Colt Commercial ... Buenos Aries capital police model.

 

[SC Shooter]

When I entered the Army in 1965, the M-14 was the standard rifle. When the M-16 came out, it was hollered to the hills that it was crap, and thi man's army needed to get back to the M-14. Within a short while, the change was accepted, and the M-14 was "obsolete". That obsolete rifle is still being used as a sniper rifle and match rifle. So much for obsolete.

 

[samweller]

I was too late to be issued an M-14, but envied the units that still had them. I hated the M-16. Political manipulation, commercial propaganda, and just plain old BS have led people (including the government) to accept stuff like the M-16/AR and Glocks as fine weapons. I would not have either one.

 

[jrdolall]

Of course, none of those who fit this description have ever done anything to advance personal protection training like Cooper, and none have had anything worthwhile to contribute regarding sidearm choice or application.

Those of us who have Gunsite training and who recognize the peculiar and particular virtues of the 1911 pistol think these modern dinks who seem to have unfounded opinions about everything are just fools.

All I can say to this is...Wow! The other 99.999% of people in the world may as well just go hide in their homes while you guys save the world. Good to know everyone else has an"unfounded" opinion. Has it ever occurred to you that some of us "dinks" may know a little something about guns? Never mind.
All the 1911 purists get up in arms when someone says that there are better designs and better calibers. Both are true statements in some regards.
There is nothing wrong with the 1911 platform as it has stood the test of time and survived for 100 years with very little change to the basic gun design. That does not make it the "best" gun for SD or HD any more than a 357 revolver is the "best". A 1911 purist will say 9 rounds is better than 6...but argue with a semi guy that 16 is not better than 9. A revolver guy will swear that 6 rounds is plenty and you can reload using moon clips just as fast as with a magazine. A Glock guy will say...pretty much nothing, just "if it ain't a Glock, it's a block".

The M-1 Garand is arguably the best battle rifle ever produced but it isn't in mass production for battlefield use any more because other rifles have displaced it. The same goes for the 1911. Does any modern military issue 1911's today? I know some still carry the 1911 but is it in common use? I really don't know the answer to that question.

I love my 1911's! They are some of my favorite guns to shoot. I really don't get the comments about recoil on a 1911 as I think they are very mild compared to many of the smaller guns on the market. Just about any novice can get comfortable with a 1911 with only a few mags of practice. It ain't no 44 magnum!

No gun that is being produced by so many companies and sold in large numbers can ever be considered "obsolete". My 1977 truck is obsolete but it sure gets the job done that it was designed to do.
Its relevance is determined by its sales IMO. If people buy 1911's by the truckload then it certainly isn't irrelevant. My 1977 GMC...not so relevant.
Immaterial? That is in the eye of the beholder. Glocks are immaterial to ME and I don't own one.
My favorite deer rifle is a sporterized 1918 Swedish Mauser in 6.5x55. There will never be a better gun or cartridge built than that.

 

[boatdoc173]

one of the best and longest lasting american machines out there. Our cars and appliances, tools and machine s in general do NOT Last or work like they should due to planned obsolescence and inferior material used these days . Yet these great guns keep on ticking year afte r year and they only get better as years go on. easy to work on,fun to shoot what's not to like?

 

[boatdoc173]

Most people would be hard pressed to tell you the name of the capital of the state in which they live.

Few of my decisions are premised upon the intelligence or education of the "common man".

sad but true

the schools do not event each math properly and do not teach script writing any more.=every child left behind

 

[Reloadron]

sad but true

the schools do not event each math properly and do not teach script writing any more.=every child left behind

The schools do not even teach math properly and do not teach cursive writing anymore.

There, I partially fixed it for you.

Ron

 

[cdk8]

I agree that the 1911 has moved in the direction of being more of a target gun. I think part of this is because there are numerous other options for reliable defensive pistols that tend to be priced much lower than most 1911s. Even the entry-level 1911s tend to be priced higher than many of the poly framed autoloaders. And as concealed carry continues to increase, the heavier weight of the 1911 (even the 4 and 3 inch sizes) may result in a lighter firearm being purchased.

Further, many 1911 makers are strongly marketing towards target shooters willing to spend a large chunk of change on a splendidly good-shooting 1911...at the same time, some of these target shooters may prefer to use/purchase a less expensive gun for defensive usage rather than a $2,000+ investment.

With all that said, I still consider the 1911 to be a great platform for defensive use and I do not think any of the above detracts from a good 1911's capability. I think it's a very easy gun to be able to shoot accurately and rapidly, and in the world of defensive shooting with a handgun where one-shot rarely means incapacitation, being able to shoot multiple rounds both rapidly and accurately is a huge plus when it comes to staying alive.

Most of the reasons I have heard against the 1911 aren't much different than the "Glocks are bad because they don't have safeties" spiel...the claimed deficiencies of the firearm are generally more deficiencies of the Shooter than anything else...

 

[Jesse H]

All of the classes and training I take are LE/SWAT oriented. When I'm in classes with guys from other agencies that allow them to carry 1911's I do notice they sometimes get handicapped when we're running drills with higher round counts.

The guys who are squared away still hit their targets and have no issues running the gun, but reloading still takes time and takes them "out of the fight." Carrying more mags does become cumbersome when most of the Glock guys usually get by with just 3.

I do appreciate a 1911 and try not to shoot them too much because it'll ruin me as I'm so used to Glock triggers.

 

[tarosean]

* I own both glocks and 1911's.. but had to laugh when I saw this one....

 

[stoky]

ROFL
I need to (uh-hm) borrow that.

 

[200Apples]

.
Hahaha! tarosean.

When I'm in classes with guys from other agencies that allow them to carry 1911's I do notice they sometimes get handicapped when we're running drills with higher round counts.

To no one in particular (I only quote Jesse's example), remember that some States allow only 10-rd magazines. I myself prefer to use factory magazines for the particular brand pistol (although the 10-rd Chip McCormack mags do work flawlessly for me I'd rather use the pistol w/ flush-mount, 7 or 8-round mags). Plus one in the pipe reduces the defecit mentioned above... at least in the State I reside.