The autoloader reliability poll

[ironvic]

P-226

My SIG P-226 keeps on shooting and never had a jam or feeding failure. If I could only have one gun to take into dangerous territiory, it would be this one! And, I bought the thing used as a police trade-in---they must have retired her way too early!

ironvic

 

[CPshooter]

Wouldn't a graph of the percent ratio between 'problems' to 'no problems' for each gun be better? I mean that would at least give you something to look at, based on the fact that you are seeing two comparable brands with different "failure rates."

There would still be tons of error and in the end it's still completely unscientific, but at least you can get a visual of which brands are "more reliable" or "less reliable."

All that graph is doing is telling you how many random experiences that random members of this forum have had before with a gun they bought. Not really useful data...

 

[siglite]

Wouldn't a graph of the percent ratio between 'problems' to 'no problems' for each gun be better? I mean that would at least give you something to look at, based on the fact that you are seeing two comparable brands with different "failure rates."

That's exactly what I have... unless I'm really mistaking what you mean. If I lined up all the MFGRs/lines, and greated a graph based on 8 problems with Sig's, verses 15 with Glocks, that'd be badly misrepresenting the data. Because it's a multiple choice poll, it wouldn't take market share into account.

What's in the graph I've tossed into the first post is a percentage, broken down like this:

Sig owners who reported problems + sig owners who did not report problems for total sig owners. Divide sig owners who have had problems by total number of sig owners, this tells us the percentage of sig owners who have had problems.

That's what each of those graph bars represents for the respective mfgr/line. If we get to 300 respondents, I'll regraph.

 

[CPshooter]

That's exactly what I have... unless I'm really mistaking what you mean. If I lined up all the MFGRs/lines, and greated a graph based on 8 problems with Sig's, verses 15 with Glocks, that'd be badly misrepresenting the data. Because it's a multiple choice poll, it wouldn't take market share into account.

You're right.. I'm an idiot. Haha guess i should be more careful next time. Definitely makes more sense this time around. lol..

 

[plexreticle]

The only handgun I've owned that has been 100% reliable for me is a VP70z.

 

[shamus]

No CZ?

ah well. I was still able to vote an a few that I've had experience with.

 

[AndyC]

Just calculated the numbers to date for comparisons' sake - here are the percentages of people who have reported no serious problem:

Sig P - 88%

Beretta 92 - 88%

Glock - 85%

Springfield XD - 85%

S&W M&P - 81%

Springfield 1911 - 78%

Colt 1911 - 75%

Kimber 1911 - 66%

 

[siglite]

Updated the chart on the first post to reflect things at 251 respondents.

 

[falnovice]

Interesting. I would love to see a poll more focused on the 1911. Something to the tune of this poll with the positive negative, but like this.
My 5 inch 1911...............

My 4 inch 1911...............

My 3 inch 1911...............

I still run with the theory that the 1911A1 is a hearty, reliable design in the mil-spec/.gov configuration. Start shortening things, tightening things, and lightening things and you start having more issues. If no one sets up a poll like this in the next couple of days I will take a crack at it. Never set one up before.

 

[Old Dog]

but at least you can get a visual of which brands are "more reliable" or "less reliable."

From this poll? I disagree. I think prejudices and perception, as well as honesty, are playing a huge part here.

And if so many people are experiencing such "significant" problems with their autoloaders --and I think the poll generally hits about all the production semi-autos that are considered good quality (uh, where's H&K, though?) -- I'm starting to believe the sample may be more indicative of folks who don't understand how to maintain these platforms than the actual average reliability or unreliability of pistols from these manufacturers.

Oh, and please -- let's not get into flogging that dead horse issue of reliability of 1911s with barrel length of less than exactly 4.25 inches ...

 

[siglite]

Yeah, I don't think you can get an accurate measure of reliability from this poll. You can certainly get a measure of "perception of reliability" from the poll.

I think prejudices and perception, as well as honesty, are playing a huge part here.

Do you realize how you sound questioning the "honesty" of respondents? I assume the results don't fit YOUR particular prejudices or perceptions.

I'm starting to believe the sample may be more indicative of folks who don't understand how to maintain these platforms

Or is it that our perceptions of reliability are flawed because none of us know how to maintain weapons?

Are you a Kimber owner, perhaps?

I've said multiple times that this poll is not, and cannot be a scientific measure of manufacturer/line reliability. However, it can be a measure of respondent's perception of reliability. Nothing more.

I think the wise choice would be to take it for what it's worth instead of calling 250+ THR members incompetent liars.

 

[gunman42782]

No issues with my Kimber Ultra Carry, and I might add, none with my Ruger P89 and P90 either.

 

[Old Dog]

Do you realize how you sound questioning the "honesty" of respondents?

Yep. And this is the internet.

I assume the results don't fit YOUR particular prejudices or perceptions.

Actually, the results fit my particular prejudices pretty well (I really like SA, SIG, Beretta and S&W, though I rarely miss an opportunity to make fun of the Glocksters).

siglite -- "calling 250+ THR members liars" -- no. It's simply natural to respond to anonymous polls in a manner reflective of one's own biases. In fact, I'd judge the THR members I know personally, or with whom I correspond regularly, as some of the most honest folks I know.

My point was (and I do believe I have one) that the percentages for serious reliability issues with modern autoloaders appears awfully high to me. I would nod knowingly at 1 or 2 percent with Glocks, SIGs or Berettas, but to take Glocks for example -- 18 of 134 people claiming Glock ownership experience have had "significant" reliability issues? I am by no means a defender of the much ballyhooed "Glock Perfection," but that sampling indicates some serious skewing there to me. I've a bit more faith in the quality of most of the pistols you list.

And yeah, I do own a couple (totally, 100% troublefree) Kimbers.

Please don't take my remarks personally, siglite -- I think the concept of your poll is a good one.

 

[siglite]

My point was (and I do believe I have one) that the percentages for serious reliability issues with modern autoloaders appears awfully high to me.

I agree with this 100%. But instead of looking at dishonesty and incompetence as explanations, I'll look first at the inherent flaws in the poll. The poll does not take ownership numbers nor life of the shooter into account. I'll provide two examples of how this will cause the numbers to spike.

Example 1:
A Sig P series owner that has 10 sigs. The likelihood that he's experienced a "significant reliability problem" is increased ten times over the shooter that only owns one Sig. This is not accounted for in the poll.

Example 2:
A shooter who's been shooting various colt 1911s for fifty years. He's twenty-five times more likely to have had a "serious reliability issue" with a colt 1911 than the guy who bought his two years ago.

And so on. The poll is NOT scientific, and people should read NOTHING into it other than "perception."

And I'm not taking it personally old shooter. The poll's too deeply flawed for anyone to take it too seriously. At least I hope people realize that.